Happy birthday to me...

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Happy birthday to me...

Flameviper Velifang
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:36:33 +0000
From: Nick <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Happy birthday to me...
To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>

>Well, that's probably going to generate a lot of "No" responses.
>
>I'm probably way to generous today for some reason, but would there be
 >any
>objections to unprotecting Flameviper's talk page and letting him edit
 >an
>article of his choice on his talk page ?
>
>I know his latest message is once again trolling and we're all getting
>pretty fed up of him, but the guy seems to have some interest in
 >editing
>Wikipedia in addition to his love of trolling us all on a regular
> basis.

  *sigh*
  I'm not trying to troll...
  I understand why everyone gets pissed off all the time, and it's because I constantly whinge about being banned. But it just sucks to be in this position, because I can't edit the encyclopedia, I can't go on a forum (which is admittedly not your fault), I can't go on IRC, all that's left for me to do is to go on the mailing list.
  Pre-emptive counter to "go outside": I do, often, and it sucks.
   
  But I suppose that I'm pissing everyone off, even though it's not my intent.
  Just as well, I don't like this any more than you do. It's more painful to write this than it is to read it, trust me.
  I'd just like to get this over with, so that I can go back to editing the encyclopedia. Then I could talk about things that actually mattered on the mailing list, instead of watching through the frosted glass of banishment.
  Yes, I know that sounded cheesy as hell.
  No, I'm not going to go back and erase it.
   
  Seriously, though, I'd really like to just go back to Wikipedia, perhaps under my Two-Sixteen account.
   
  Could you just give it a try?

       
---------------------------------
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Re: Happy birthday to me...

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:08:19 -0800 (PST), Flameviper Velifang
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>I understand why everyone gets pissed off all the time, and it's because I constantly whinge about being banned. But it just sucks to be in this position, because I can't edit the encyclopedia, I can't go on a forum (which is admittedly not your fault), I can't go on IRC, all that's left for me to do is to go on the mailing list.

Go to the library.  Become an expert on something obscure.  Wait a
year, and ask nicely to come back.

Obsessively discussing Wikipedia while banned is not a good
indicator for unbanning.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: Happy birthday to me...

Monahon, Peter B.
In reply to this post by Flameviper Velifang
> Earlier: "... I constantly whinge ...

... [from bartleby.com, whinge = chiefly British to complain or protest,
especially in an annoying or persistent manner; versus (US?) whine = to
complain or protest in a childish fashion] ...

> ... about being banned.  But it just sucks to be in this position,
because I can't edit
> the encyclopedia, I can't go on a forum (which is admittedly not your
fault), I can't go
> on IRC, all that's left for me to do is to go on the mailing list.
Pre-emptive counter to
> "go outside": I do, often, and it sucks ... I don't like this any more
than you do.  It's
> more painful to write this than it is to read it, trust me.  I'd just
like to get this over
> with, so that I can go back to editing the encyclopedia.  Then I could
talk about things
> that actually mattered on the mailing list, instead of watching
through the frosted
> glass of banishment ..."

Peter Blaise responds:

Regarding "... talk about things that actually mattered ..."  I think
discussions about banning always matter.  Until we ban banning.  Then we
can talk about the next impatient, intolerant, un-accepting,
non-equivalent consideration thing we do to each other.

Regarding "... It's more painful to write this than it is to read it..."
I have no doubt, yet anyone here who doesn't want to read can just
scroll on, and instead, we can read (or write) something we prefer.

But, I see that we do tend to spend a significant portion of our dialog
reviewing the details of banning.  I guess, after all, we still believe
banning has positives that outweigh the negatives.  Yet, the balance
between the pros and cons of banning seems quite different for each of
us, eh?  So, I guess we'll just have to keep discussing the inner
details of banning, case by case, ad infinitum, ad naseum.

I can't find the quote, but I think it was U. S. President Kennedy who
is reported to have said something like, "If we make peaceful protest
impossible ..."  Can anyone find and finish the quote / idea?  Thanks.


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Re: Happy birthday to me...

David Goodman
I think it is safe in general to let a banned editor return under a
specific named account after a public declaration of true identity.
Everyone will be watching.  What damage could be done t hat could not
be immediately stopped and reverted?

On 11/27/07, Monahon, Peter B. <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Earlier: "... I constantly whinge ...
>
> ... [from bartleby.com, whinge = chiefly British to complain or protest,
> especially in an annoying or persistent manner; versus (US?) whine = to
> complain or protest in a childish fashion] ...
>
> > ... about being banned.  But it just sucks to be in this position,
> because I can't edit
> > the encyclopedia, I can't go on a forum (which is admittedly not your
> fault), I can't go
> > on IRC, all that's left for me to do is to go on the mailing list.
> Pre-emptive counter to
> > "go outside": I do, often, and it sucks ... I don't like this any more
> than you do.  It's
> > more painful to write this than it is to read it, trust me.  I'd just
> like to get this over
> > with, so that I can go back to editing the encyclopedia.  Then I could
> talk about things
> > that actually mattered on the mailing list, instead of watching
> through the frosted
> > glass of banishment ..."
>
> Peter Blaise responds:
>
> Regarding "... talk about things that actually mattered ..."  I think
> discussions about banning always matter.  Until we ban banning.  Then we
> can talk about the next impatient, intolerant, un-accepting,
> non-equivalent consideration thing we do to each other.
>
> Regarding "... It's more painful to write this than it is to read it..."
> I have no doubt, yet anyone here who doesn't want to read can just
> scroll on, and instead, we can read (or write) something we prefer.
>
> But, I see that we do tend to spend a significant portion of our dialog
> reviewing the details of banning.  I guess, after all, we still believe
> banning has positives that outweigh the negatives.  Yet, the balance
> between the pros and cons of banning seems quite different for each of
> us, eh?  So, I guess we'll just have to keep discussing the inner
> details of banning, case by case, ad infinitum, ad naseum.
>
> I can't find the quote, but I think it was U. S. President Kennedy who
> is reported to have said something like, "If we make peaceful protest
> impossible ..."  Can anyone find and finish the quote / idea?  Thanks.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


--
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.

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Re: Happy birthday to me...

John Reaves
I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd keep you from
whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC.

--John Reaves

On Nov 27, 2007 5:31 PM, David Goodman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it is safe in general to let a banned editor return under a
> specific named account after a public declaration of true identity.
> Everyone will be watching.  What damage could be done t hat could not
> be immediately stopped and reverted?
>
> On 11/27/07, Monahon, Peter B. <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Earlier: "... I constantly whinge ...
> >
> > ... [from bartleby.com, whinge = chiefly British to complain or protest,
> > especially in an annoying or persistent manner; versus (US?) whine = to
> > complain or protest in a childish fashion] ...
> >
> > > ... about being banned.  But it just sucks to be in this position,
> > because I can't edit
> > > the encyclopedia, I can't go on a forum (which is admittedly not your
> > fault), I can't go
> > > on IRC, all that's left for me to do is to go on the mailing list.
> > Pre-emptive counter to
> > > "go outside": I do, often, and it sucks ... I don't like this any more
> > than you do.  It's
> > > more painful to write this than it is to read it, trust me.  I'd just
> > like to get this over
> > > with, so that I can go back to editing the encyclopedia.  Then I could
> > talk about things
> > > that actually mattered on the mailing list, instead of watching
> > through the frosted
> > > glass of banishment ..."
> >
> > Peter Blaise responds:
> >
> > Regarding "... talk about things that actually mattered ..."  I think
> > discussions about banning always matter.  Until we ban banning.  Then we
> > can talk about the next impatient, intolerant, un-accepting,
> > non-equivalent consideration thing we do to each other.
> >
> > Regarding "... It's more painful to write this than it is to read it..."
> > I have no doubt, yet anyone here who doesn't want to read can just
> > scroll on, and instead, we can read (or write) something we prefer.
> >
> > But, I see that we do tend to spend a significant portion of our dialog
> > reviewing the details of banning.  I guess, after all, we still believe
> > banning has positives that outweigh the negatives.  Yet, the balance
> > between the pros and cons of banning seems quite different for each of
> > us, eh?  So, I guess we'll just have to keep discussing the inner
> > details of banning, case by case, ad infinitum, ad naseum.
> >
> > I can't find the quote, but I think it was U. S. President Kennedy who
> > is reported to have said something like, "If we make peaceful protest
> > impossible ..."  Can anyone find and finish the quote / idea?  Thanks.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> --
> David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Happy birthday to me...

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by David Goodman
On 27/11/2007, David Goodman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it is safe in general to let a banned editor return under a
> specific named account after a public declaration of true identity.
> Everyone will be watching.  What damage could be done t hat could not
> be immediately stopped and reverted?


wikien-l isn't unblock-en-l, and appealing here isn't going to do any
good at all. Flameviper's pleas here are useless, if not worse than
useless. Flameviper needs to write a plea to the Arbitration Committee
in the first instance.


- d.

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Re: Happy birthday to me...

Monahon, Peter B.
In reply to this post by Flameviper Velifang

> Earlier:
> ... [from bartleby.com, whinge = chiefly British to complain or
protest,
> especially in an annoying or persistent manner; versus (US?) whine =
to
> complain or protest in a childish fashion] ...

Peter Blaise responds:  Whinge / whine?  I subscribe to many daily
prompts with new information, such as Google Alerts on "wiki" and so on,
and this just came in from dictionary.com:

Word of the Day for Tuesday, November 27, 2007

kvetch \KVECH\, adjective:

1. To complain habitually.
2. A complaint.
3. A habitual complainer.

People kvetched when someone else wouldn't relinquish his position.
-- Barry Lopez, "Before the Temple of Fire.", Harper's Magazine, January
1998

They begin to look like malcontents who kvetch about the weather so much
that they don't notice the sun coming out.
-- David Shenk, "Slamming Gates", The New Republic, January 26, 1998

Time for my biennial kvetch about the West End theatre.
-- Simon Hoggart, "Hose bans, petrol mania: saying 'don't panic' always
triggers chaos", The Guardian, November 4, 2000

He's just a very up person, she says, which is odd, because he is also a
big complainer, a class-A kvetch.
-- Penny Wolfson, "Moonrise", The Atlantic, December 2001

He had difficulty getting American publishers for his later novels,
partly because of his self-created image by then as a crusty old kvetch.
-- Geoffrey Wheatcroft, "What Kingsley Can Teach Martin", The Atlantic,
September 2000

Kvetch comes from Yiddish kvetshn, "to squeeze, to complain," from
Middle High German quetzen, quetschen, "to squeeze."

==========

I do not believe we need to limit ourselves to negative or pejorative
definitions of what we are doing here when we appear to be "complaining"
- whinging / whining / kvetching.  I think this is all important dialog,
contemporaneously and for future visitors searching the archives, free
speech, "minority reports", calls to conscience, and so on.  By calling
it "whining" we diminish it's importance and may then think it's
dispensable, but without alternative and new contributions, no matter
how unpopular, there is no growth, and without growth, there is only
death.  Me?  I'm all for a lively (as opposed to deadly) Wikipedia
community, so carry on the lively discussions.

And now, back to endless discussions of the pros and cons of banning,
keeping the energies fresh, regardless of any initial name or intended
topic content of any thread, it's all about banning after all, isn't it?
;-)


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Re: Happy birthday to me...

Monahon, Peter B.
In reply to this post by Flameviper Velifang

May I suggest that we NOT use specific, unprecursed pronouns, because
they are ambiguous.  General pronouns are appropriate for general,
nonspecific references, but when using "you" please precurse it with a
specific proper noun (antecedent).  Thanks.

> Earlier: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if
it'd keep you from whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists
and IRC..."

Who is "you"?  Does the writer of the above mean: "... I'd favor an
unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd keep [Flameviper] from
whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."

... or does the writer of the above mean: "... I'd favor an unban (using
the Flameviper account) if it'd keep [David Goodman or Peter B. Monahon,
authors of previous post which the writer was responding to] from
whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."

... or: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd
keep [Flameviper  or David Goodman or Peter B. Monahon] from whining (or
whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."

... or: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd
keep you [all, that is, all discussions of banning on the mailing list]
from whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."

... or ...

Argh!  Just shoot me and get it over with!


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Re: Happy birthday to me...

John Reaves
On Nov 28, 2007 9:23 AM, Monahon, Peter B. <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> May I suggest that we NOT use specific, unprecursed pronouns, because
> they are ambiguous.  General pronouns are appropriate for general,
> nonspecific references, but when using "you" please precurse it with a
> specific proper noun (antecedent).  Thanks.
>
> > Earlier: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if
> it'd keep you from whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists
> and IRC..."
>
> Who is "you"?  Does the writer of the above mean: "... I'd favor an
> unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd keep [Flameviper] from
> whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
>
> ... or does the writer of the above mean: "... I'd favor an unban (using
> the Flameviper account) if it'd keep [David Goodman or Peter B. Monahon,
> authors of previous post which the writer was responding to] from
> whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
>
> ... or: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd
> keep [Flameviper  or David Goodman or Peter B. Monahon] from whining (or
> whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
>
> ... or: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd
> keep you [all, that is, all discussions of banning on the mailing list]
> from whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
>
> ... or ...
>
> Argh!  Just shoot me and get it over with!
>
>
> <http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>
>

What do you think it means?  What's the most logical answer given the
subject of this thread?  Stop being pedantic.

--John Reaves
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Re: Happy birthday to me...

radio rhubarb
Happy birthday!

On Nov 28, 2007 2:20 PM, John Reaves <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Nov 28, 2007 9:23 AM, Monahon, Peter B. <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > May I suggest that we NOT use specific, unprecursed pronouns, because
> > they are ambiguous.  General pronouns are appropriate for general,
> > nonspecific references, but when using "you" please precurse it with a
> > specific proper noun (antecedent).  Thanks.
> >
> > > Earlier: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if
> > it'd keep you from whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists
> > and IRC..."
> >
> > Who is "you"?  Does the writer of the above mean: "... I'd favor an
> > unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd keep [Flameviper] from
> > whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
> >
> > ... or does the writer of the above mean: "... I'd favor an unban (using
> > the Flameviper account) if it'd keep [David Goodman or Peter B. Monahon,
> > authors of previous post which the writer was responding to] from
> > whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
> >
> > ... or: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd
> > keep [Flameviper  or David Goodman or Peter B. Monahon] from whining (or
> > whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
> >
> > ... or: "... I'd favor an unban (using the Flameviper account) if it'd
> > keep you [all, that is, all discussions of banning on the mailing list]
> > from whining (or whinging was it?) on the mailing lists and IRC..."
> >
> > ... or ...
> >
> > Argh!  Just shoot me and get it over with!
> >
> >
> > <http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>
> >
>
> What do you think it means?  What's the most logical answer given the
> subject of this thread?  Stop being pedantic.
>
> --John Reaves
> _______________________________________________
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