How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

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How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
Hi

In pl wiki "depth" is very weak. We have many edits, like other bigger Wikipedias, but Ratio is problematical (Non-Articles/Articles). We have not a lot of non-article pages. Could you help us? Any ideas?

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-Articles/Articles

http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesArticlesEditsPerArticle.htm

http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_html.php?sort=good_desc

http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Specjalna%3ANowe_strony&namespace=4&tagfilter=&username=

Przykuta

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Виктория-6
*Dzień dobry, *Przykuta

One of Wikipedia perennial dilemmas is quantity vs. quality. Low depth and
low articles to non-auricles ratio usually a sign that too many articles
were created semiautomatically, by bots and the community is spread too thin
e.g. there is not enough people to correct and discuss these articles.



Therefore, the first possible thing to do is to stop increasing the number
of bot articles - at the stage of development of Polish Wikipedia they do
more harm than good.



You can also have an "X week" where X is any topic of articles created by
bots. People like to work together on a common goal, in the Russian
Wikipedia thematic weeks are very successful.



And lastly you can start nominating articles created by bots and not touched
by a human hand since then for deletion. They will be either improved or
deleted and any outcome will increase average depth. In RuWiki nobody tries
to nominate significant bot articles like German cities but superfluous ones
about obscure 70s C-movies and far far away galaxies NGO... are nominated
for deletion 5 per day.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Victoria


On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 6:54 AM, Przykuta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> In pl wiki "depth" is very weak. We have many edits, like other bigger
> Wikipedias, but Ratio is problematical (Non-Articles/Articles). We have not
> a lot of non-article pages. Could you help us? Any ideas?
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-Articles/Articles
>
> http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesArticlesEditsPerArticle.htm
>
> http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_html.php?sort=good_desc
>
>
> http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Specjalna%3ANowe_strony&namespace=4&tagfilter=&username=
>
> Przykuta
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
> *Dzień dobry, *Przykuta
>
> One of Wikipedia perennial dilemmas is quantity vs. quality. Low depth and
> low articles to non-auricles ratio usually a sign that too many articles
> were created semiautomatically, by bots and the community is spread too thin
> e.g. there is not enough people to correct and discuss these articles.
>
>
>
> Therefore, the first possible thing to do is to stop increasing the number
> of bot articles - at the stage of development of Polish Wikipedia they do
> more harm than good.
>
>

Huh. We did not create articles by bots (from 2007) we create thousends of articles in these years and depth has been still weak.

Przykuta

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by Виктория-6
2010/10/10 Виктория <[hidden email]>:
> *Dzień dobry, *Przykuta
>
> One of Wikipedia perennial dilemmas is quantity vs. quality. Low depth and
> low articles to non-auricles ratio usually a sign that too many articles
> were created semiautomatically, by bots and the community is spread too thin
> e.g. there is not enough people to correct and discuss these articles.

Polish doesn't seem to have more bots *editing* than other projects
do. A few months back, I graphed all the Wikipedias by number of bot
edits as proportion of total edits:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Proportion_of_bot_edits_on_Wikipedia_by_overall_edit_count.svg

Polish isn't marked here, but it's eighth from the right - it doesn't
seem to be a statistical outlier at all. Unless the bots are
concentrated solely on new articles, which is a possibility, this
seems normal.

So perhaps it's something about the way the Polish Wikipedia works? A
few thoughts:

* Polish doesn't host any images - unlike most other projects - so
there's no need for image pages, image talkpages, etc. On some
projects, such as German, as many as 6% of pages are in the image
namespace!

* Polish doesn't seem to use article talkpages much. I've just spent
some time hitting "Losuj artykuł", and about 10-20% of the articles I
found had talkpages. In English, this is about 85-90%, and in French,
about the same. In the other languages these may just have project
tags ("this article is part of WikiProject Something") or metadata
("this article is rated C-class and needs an image"), but they still
show up as non-article pages. There's currently ~735,000 articles and
~595,000 non-articles; if another 70% of articles were to have
talkpages - making it comparable with English and French - this would
make ~1,110,000 non-articles, or 1.5 non-articles per article.

* Finally, Polish Wikipedia has fewer active users than any of the
next three "smaller" Wikipedias - Italian, Japanese and Spanish -
which might be significant here. Fewer users talk less, so there's
fewer "natural" discussion pages.

> You can also have an "X week" where X is any topic of articles created by
> bots. People like to work together on a common goal, in the Russian
> Wikipedia thematic weeks are very successful.

English Wikipedia has had some success with a "cup" system - a hundred
Wikipedians competing over several months to improve articles, etc.
It's hard to say how much impact it's had, or how much work people
would have done *without* the contest, but I've seen estimates that a
quarter or a third of all highly-rated content over the last year has
come from participants. In some cases, it was so popular it
overwhelmed the review processes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiCup

I've not participated in theme weeks before, but I've heard pretty
good things about them. Were they usually focused on creating articles
or on "saving" existing ones?

> And lastly you can start nominating articles created by bots and not touched
> by a human hand since then for deletion. They will be either improved or
> deleted and any outcome will increase average depth. In RuWiki nobody tries
> to nominate significant bot articles like German cities but superfluous ones
> about obscure 70s C-movies and far far away galaxies NGO... are nominated
> for deletion 5 per day.

Harsh but fair!

How strict is the bot-approval process on Polish Wikipedia? If there's
a problem with mass creation of articles, you could try being stricter
about requiring community approval before the bots are allowed to run,
to check that you actually do want these topics.

--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
>
> So perhaps it's something about the way the Polish Wikipedia works? A
> few thoughts:
>
> * Polish doesn't host any images - unlike most other projects - so
> there's no need for image pages, image talkpages, etc. On some
> projects, such as German, as many as 6% of pages are in the image
> namespace!

Yes. We sent all images to Commons. We finished this work last month.

>
> * Polish doesn't seem to use article talkpages much. I've just spent
> some time hitting "Losuj artykuł", and about 10-20% of the articles I
> found had talkpages. In English, this is about 85-90%, and in French,
> about the same. In the other languages these may just have project
> tags ("this article is part of WikiProject Something") or metadata
> ("this article is rated C-class and needs an image"), but they still
> show up as non-article pages. There's currently ~735,000 articles and
> ~595,000 non-articles; if another 70% of articles were to have
> talkpages - making it comparable with English and French - this would
> make ~1,110,000 non-articles, or 1.5 non-articles per article.

Readers who find errors use "Zgłoś błąd" (notify an error) in menu (sidebar) rather than talk pages.

~1500 edits by month (notifies and answers): http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl?lang=pl.wikipedia&page=Wikipedia%3AZg%C5%82o%C5%9B+b%C5%82%C4%85d+w+artykule

 Old talk pages with solved problems are deleted. Talk pages of dynamic IP are deleted too (we wait ~6 months and delete them by bot). I don't know - is it standard behavior in other Wikiepdias or specific for pl.

>
> * Finally, Polish Wikipedia has fewer active users than any of the
> next three "smaller" Wikipedias - Italian, Japanese and Spanish -
> which might be significant here. Fewer users talk less, so there's
> fewer "natural" discussion pages.
>

True - we have only ~300 very active users. We rather use main. One of the most often used slogan is "we work here, not talk". Many times we spend in "flagged revisions" - so, we are sure, that 90% are free of vandalism.

Przykuta

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Przykuta, 10/10/2010 19:17:
>  Old talk pages with solved problems are deleted.

This is extremely strange. Talk pages are part of the article history.
Ortega's thesis should be updated, perhaps.
«The combination of a very active cohort of bots, together
with the very low ratio of talk pages, indicates that the Polish
language version is not following the
same organizational pattern found in other language editions. Such a low
ratio of talk pages points out
the little effort undertaken on coordination actions and discussion
about article contents in the Polish
version.»
(http://libresoft.es/Members/jfelipe/phd-thesis , p. 91)

> Talk pages of dynamic IP are deleted too (we wait ~6 months and delete them by bot). I don't know - is it standard behavior in other Wikiepdias or specific for pl.

This isn't very relevant. On it.wiki they used to be deleted by
(unapproved) bots (run under sysop accounts); since some years they're
just replaced with a "welcome IP" template every month if they're more
than a month old.

>> * Finally, Polish Wikipedia has fewer active users than any of the
>> next three "smaller" Wikipedias - Italian, Japanese and Spanish -
>> which might be significant here. Fewer users talk less, so there's
>> fewer "natural" discussion pages.
>>
>
> True - we have only ~300 very active users. We rather use main. One of the most often used slogan is "we work here, not talk". Many times we spend in "flagged revisions" - so, we are sure, that 90% are free of vandalism.

This is very important. The real question is: how can pl.wiki be so big
(and useful, looking at pageviews) with such a little editor base? Seems
a good result.

Nemo

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
> >  Old talk pages with solved problems are deleted.
>
> This is extremely strange. Talk pages are part of the article history.
> Ortega's thesis should be updated, perhaps.
> «The combination of a very active cohort of bots, together
> with the very low ratio of talk pages, indicates that the Polish
> language version is not following the
> same organizational pattern found in other language editions. Such a low
> ratio of talk pages points out
> the little effort undertaken on coordination actions and discussion
> about article contents in the Polish
> version.»
> (http://libresoft.es/Members/jfelipe/phd-thesis , p. 91)
>

Delete reasons for talk pages: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown

    * Wpis nie związany w żaden sposób z treścią hasła (it is not abount content of article)
    * Szablon Bez infoboksu – wstawiony (lack of infobox - done)
    * Szablon Wikiprojekt info - Wikiproject info
    * Strona dyskusji to nie forum - this is not a forum
    * Sprawa załatwiona / zbędna dyskusja - done (problem solved)
    * Dyskusja bez artykułu - talk page without article
    * Dyskusja przeniesiona - moved
    * Odpowiedziano na stronie dyskusji użytkownika - an answer is on the user talk page
    * Opis użycia szablonu przeniesiono na stronę dokumentacji - documentation of template moved

Delete log:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Specjalna%3ARejestr&type=delete&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_review_log=1

http://tinyurl.com/2g9uw3d

Of course pages with big discussions are not deleted. There are deleted rather simply suggestions: "you have an error with birth date", "I don't like this person",  "This page need infobox" etc. So, quality is poor because talk pages are cleaning and there is used specific link for notify errors in sidebar. Yes, strange :)

przykuta


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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Mike Peel
In reply to this post by Przykuta
Czesc all,

On 10 Oct 2010, at 06:54, Przykuta wrote:

> Hi
>
> In pl wiki "depth" is very weak. We have many edits, like other bigger Wikipedias, but Ratio is problematical (Non-Articles/Articles). We have not a lot of non-article pages. Could you help us? Any ideas?
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-Articles/Articles
>
> http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesArticlesEditsPerArticle.htm
>
> http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_html.php?sort=good_desc
>
> http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Specjalna%3ANowe_strony&namespace=4&tagfilter=&username=
>
> Przykuta

It's a bit ambiguous as to whether this is <number of non-article edits/non-articles> over <article edits/non-article edits> (or even the number of articles vs. number of non-articles), but I'll assume the first one of these.

Is this actually a symptom of a problem? It could even be viewed as the absence of a problem. One of en.wp's problems can be over-discussing something before it is carried out in article space, which can be seen by the extremely high number of edits to the talk pages compared to the content pages. Having a minimal amount of discussion per article can be seen as an efficient way of creating articles. However, it could also be seen as people not wanting to challenge the content of an article in a critical way, which might be more of a downside - a reasonable level of debate/controversy about articles tends to be productive in producing a balanced article on the subject

I think image discussion is somewhat of a red herring/off topic discussion, as I'm not sure that there is much discussion that actually happens around individual images. The same applies to bot article edits, if these only make small numbers of edits.

Does pl.wp have WikiProjects? If not, then perhaps this could explain the reduced number of non-article edits, given how many pages on en.wp only have wikiproject templates on their talk pages (or cases where having a non-redlink has promoted discussions).

Thanks,
Mike Peel

P.S. I wish that en.wp sent all images to Commons - it would ease a lot of issues. ;-)
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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
>
> Does pl.wp have WikiProjects? If not, then perhaps this could explain the reduced number of non-article edits, given how many pages on en.wp only have wikiproject templates on their talk pages (or cases where having a non-redlink has promoted discussions).
>
> Thanks,
> Mike Peel
>

Sure, like other ~ 50 Wikipedias ;)

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiprojekt

But we not used templates in talk pages (only several projets). Wikipedians in pl don't like "empty editcounting".

przykuta

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Виктория-6
I am not sure that deleting disccusion pages as a default is a good thing.
If  the discussion page exists some people will check it out of curosity and
stay on the site longer, may be add their comments. "Red" scares many users,
they don't know how to create a new page. Of course  "I don't like this
person" won't do but  if there was a mistake they will see that the mistake
is corrected so there's a possibility of the feedback.

The Russian Wikipedia has copied your Mistakes report script but we often
transfer the reports to the discussion pages for  correction of  wikipedians
looking after their articles.

Victoria
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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
>
> The Russian Wikipedia has copied your Mistakes report script but we often
> transfer the reports to the discussion pages for  correction of  wikipedians
> looking after their articles.
>
> Victoria
>

In pl wiki reports are moved too, but only if problem is not solved on the "Zgłoś błąd" site. Sometimes we transfer problems to wikiprojects.

BTW - I've seen, that in some (smaller) Wikipedias newbies are welcome by bots. We try welcome only users with any activity and newbies are welcome by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation]] page with links to help pages.

Thx Victoria for info about "special actions" in ru wiki. I know them, we create some actions too, but "cup system" after huge WikiRPG in 2006 is closed. Too much fights.

przykuta

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Przykuta, 11/10/2010 08:37:
> BTW - I've seen, that in some (smaller) Wikipedias newbies are welcome by bots. We try welcome only users with any activity and newbies are welcome by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation]] page with links to help pages.

[[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation]] is almost useless, IMHO: you can't read it
again after account creation.
Welcome on talk page is useful because the user can read hints when he
wants (I appreciated this a lot when I was a newbie) and because it
offers help from another user (simplest form of coaching/mentoring).
Bots are ok, even if someone is worried about disk space (when
substituting) or job queue (when leaving a template). Welcoming inactive
users may be useful because 1) lots of users get lost and don't edit
even if they would to, and some hint may encourage them, 2) usually bots
won't re-check activity of older accounts and you may end up with lots
of not welcomed users. Default configuration of welcome.py is to welcome
every non-automatically created (SUL) account, if I remember correctly.
Recently some wikis have started to use
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NewUserMessage

Nemo

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
> Przykuta, 11/10/2010 08:37:
> > BTW - I've seen, that in some (smaller) Wikipedias newbies are welcome by bots. We try welcome only users with any activity and newbies are welcome by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation]] page with links to help pages.
>
> [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation]] is almost useless, IMHO: you can't read it
> again after account creation.
> Welcome on talk page is useful because the user can read hints when he
> wants (I appreciated this a lot when I was a newbie) and because it
> offers help from another user (simplest form of coaching/mentoring).
> Bots are ok, even if someone is worried about disk space (when
> substituting) or job queue (when leaving a template). Welcoming inactive
> users may be useful because 1) lots of users get lost and don't edit
> even if they would to, and some hint may encourage them, 2) usually bots
> won't re-check activity of older accounts and you may end up with lots
> of not welcomed users. Default configuration of welcome.py is to welcome
> every non-automatically created (SUL) account, if I remember correctly.
> Recently some wikis have started to use
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NewUserMessage
>
> Nemo
>

Huh. Yes, but when bot welcome newbie, "he" can't help this user. If I welcome, I offer my personal help. We welcome all if they are active:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specjalna:Wk%C5%82ad/newbies

But... welcome by bot + link to "Adopt-a-User" page. Hmm. I will think about this. In welcomecreation is a link to this tutorial:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Krok_pierwszy_-_edytowanie&action=edit&section=new

przykuta

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Przykuta, 11/10/2010 09:27:
> Huh. Yes, but when bot welcome newbie, "he" can't help this user.

Bots usually add a random signature from a list of experienced users
willing to help.

Nemo

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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Lennart Guldbrandsson
Hello,

This whole thread is interesting. You can work side by side with someone for
several years and not know that the Wikipedia next door delete talk pages
where the question is resolved.

Anyway, I published an essay about raising quality on the Swedish Wikipedia
a couple of years ago, which may have some bearing on this issue. It was
written in Swedish but since most of you don't speak Swedish, it was
translated into English here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Sverige/Lennart_thoughts_of_Quality

Another essay, this time about users, can be read here (Google translated
only so far):

http://translate.google.se/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsv.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAnv%25C3%25A4ndare%3AHannibal%2FTio_tankar_om_anv%25C3%25A4ndare

Best wishes,

Lennart



2010/10/11 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>

> Przykuta, 11/10/2010 09:27:
> > Huh. Yes, but when bot welcome newbie, "he" can't help this user.
>
> Bots usually add a random signature from a list of experienced users
> willing to help.
>
> Nemo
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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--
Lennart Guldbrandsson, chair of Wikimedia Sverige and press contact for
Swedish Wikipedia // ordförande för Wikimedia Sverige och presskontakt för
svenskspråkiga Wikipedia
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Re: How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Przykuta
Hello,

> This whole thread is interesting. You can work side by side with someone for
> several years and not know that the Wikipedia next door delete talk pages
> where the question is resolved.

Yeah. We are forks.

>
> Anyway, I published an essay about raising quality on the Swedish Wikipedia
> a couple of years ago, which may have some bearing on this issue. It was
> written in Swedish but since most of you don't speak Swedish, it was
> translated into English here:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Sverige/Lennart_thoughts_of_Quality
>
> Another essay, this time about users, can be read here (Google translated
> only so far):
>
> http://translate.google.se/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsv.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAnv%25C3%25A4ndare%3AHannibal%2FTio_tankar_om_anv%25C3%25A4ndare
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lennart
>
>

Thx, I will send this link to pl community (I hope - part of the global wikicommunity yet).

przykuta

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Re: [Wiki-research-l] How to improve quality of Wikipedia?

Felipe Ortega
In reply to this post by Federico Leva (Nemo)
--- El dom, 10/10/10, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> escribió:

> De: Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
> Asunto: Re: [Wiki-research-l] [Foundation-l] How to improve quality of Wikipedia?
> Para: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> CC: "Research into Wikimedia content and communities" <[hidden email]>
> Fecha: domingo, 10 de octubre, 2010 19:45
> Przykuta, 10/10/2010 19:17:
> >  Old talk pages with solved problems are deleted.
>
>
> This is extremely strange. Talk pages are part of the
> article history.
> Ortega's thesis should be updated, perhaps.
> «The combination of a very active cohort of bots,
> together
> with the very low ratio of talk pages, indicates that the
> Polish
> language version is not following the
> same organizational pattern found in other language
> editions. Such a low
> ratio of talk pages points out
> the little effort undertaken on coordination actions and
> discussion
> about article contents in the Polish
> version.»
> (http://libresoft.es/Members/jfelipe/phd-thesis , p.
> 91)
>

Thanks for pointing out this, Nemo. I might have missed the thread in Foundation-l otherwise :).

Well, at least this gives a partial explanation for the very low ratio of available talk pages, though I personally think it is not enough to explain such a really really low figure.

In fact, I concur that this is very strange. As far as I have understood up to now, talk pages also serve as a backup log of past discussions for new users approaching an article for the first time. If this is true, then in PL some new editor of an article might run the risk of raising again a issue or a contribution that was already discussed a year ago by editors working on that article.

Best,
Felipe.

> > Talk pages of dynamic IP are deleted too (we wait ~6
> months and delete them by bot). I don't know - is it
> standard behavior in other Wikiepdias or specific for pl.
>
> This isn't very relevant. On it.wiki they used to be
> deleted by
> (unapproved) bots (run under sysop accounts); since some
> years they're
> just replaced with a "welcome IP" template every month if
> they're more
> than a month old.
>
> >> * Finally, Polish Wikipedia has fewer active users
> than any of the
> >> next three "smaller" Wikipedias - Italian,
> Japanese and Spanish -
> >> which might be significant here. Fewer users talk
> less, so there's
> >> fewer "natural" discussion pages.
> >>
> >
> > True - we have only ~300 very active users. We rather
> use main. One of the most often used slogan is "we work
> here, not talk". Many times we spend in "flagged revisions"
> - so, we are sure, that 90% are free of vandalism.
>
> This is very important. The real question is: how can
> pl.wiki be so big
> (and useful, looking at pageviews) with such a little
> editor base? Seems
> a good result.
>
> Nemo
>
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