If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

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If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

David Abián
Hi,

I'm sending this email to request your help with...

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207648

We don't want non-confirmed users to see links from semiprotected
Wikipedia articles to their corresponding Wikidata items. This is a
well-known source of vandalism (and bad press) that is seriously
affecting Wikidata and some Wikipedias.

As Lydia describes on T205783,

"When contentious topics show up in the news vandalism on the Wikipedia
articles related to it usually shows up pretty quickly. The article then
might be protected for some time in order to prevent more vandalism. A
pattern we are seeing now is that people then move over to Wikidata and
continue their vandalism there. (This might then in turn lead to
vandalism showing up in the article anyway if it uses the data.) This
especially happens when an infobox has "edit on Wikidata" links or
something similar. We need to find a way to make this attack vector less
of a problem."

We don't want to hide these links from everyone, just from non-confirmed
users. We could write CSS rules for certain user groups, but this can
bring undesired side effects like giving all users the possiblity of
hiding arbitrary content (e.g., vandalism) from other users who should
be able to see it.

We also have `mw.title.protectionLevels["edit"]` in Lua, but this option
is documented as "expensive" and I can't guess what its impact could be
if applied on a large scale.

Any action or suggestion on how to achieve this is more than welcome.

Thanks in advance!

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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

nguyen dinh truong nguyen
Thank you, I think that it is vandalism of victor Charlie (slang in vn war)
On 29 Oct 2018 04:53, "David Abián" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm sending this email to request your help with...
>
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207648
>
> We don't want non-confirmed users to see links from semiprotected
> Wikipedia articles to their corresponding Wikidata items. This is a
> well-known source of vandalism (and bad press) that is seriously
> affecting Wikidata and some Wikipedias.
>
> As Lydia describes on T205783,
>
> "When contentious topics show up in the news vandalism on the Wikipedia
> articles related to it usually shows up pretty quickly. The article then
> might be protected for some time in order to prevent more vandalism. A
> pattern we are seeing now is that people then move over to Wikidata and
> continue their vandalism there. (This might then in turn lead to
> vandalism showing up in the article anyway if it uses the data.) This
> especially happens when an infobox has "edit on Wikidata" links or
> something similar. We need to find a way to make this attack vector less
> of a problem."
>
> We don't want to hide these links from everyone, just from non-confirmed
> users. We could write CSS rules for certain user groups, but this can
> bring undesired side effects like giving all users the possiblity of
> hiding arbitrary content (e.g., vandalism) from other users who should
> be able to see it.
>
> We also have `mw.title.protectionLevels["edit"]` in Lua, but this option
> is documented as "expensive" and I can't guess what its impact could be
> if applied on a large scale.
>
> Any action or suggestion on how to achieve this is more than welcome.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> --
> David Abián
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Daniel Kinzler-3
In reply to this post by David Abián
Am 28.10.2018 um 22:53 schrieb David Abián:
> We don't want to hide these links from everyone, just from non-confirmed
> users. We could write CSS rules for certain user groups, but this can
> bring undesired side effects like giving all users the possiblity of
> hiding arbitrary content (e.g., vandalism) from other users who should
> be able to see it.

How exactly could that be abused? CSS rules seem the best approach to me.

> We also have `mw.title.protectionLevels["edit"]` in Lua, but this option
> is documented as "expensive" and I can't guess what its impact could be
> if applied on a large scale.

I don't see how this can work with the parser cache. The Lua code runs once
every time the page is purged. The result is then shown to everyone. The code
does not run per user.

I assume you would still want to show the link to users who actually do have the
right to edit.


--
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

David Abián
Hi,

> I assume you would still want to show the link to users who actually
> do have the right to edit.

Yes, that's it.

> How exactly could that be abused? CSS rules seem the best approach to me.

First I thought on introducing something like `.myclass{display:none;}`
in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] and `.myclass{display:inline;}` in
[[MediaWiki:Group-autoconfirmed.css]], but this would let users freely
hide arbitrary content from newbies on any Wikimedia page (Wikipedia
articles, user pages, etc.) by using <div class="myclass">...</div>.
Although this permission hierarchy would be theoretically correct
(trusted users would see more things than newbies, not the opposite), we
probably don't want to offer this "feature" by default with the solution
to T207648. On the other hand, this would only solve the task of
identifying when a user is autoconfirmed.

However, I like <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207648#4701665>,
which would combine the information about the protection status and the
user groups. With this solution we wouldn't introduce the "feature" of
selectively hiding arbitrary content from certain users on any page.
This class may be included only in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], where we
could define rules body.myclass (the element body isn't allowed in
wikitext). We could also tweak the HTML code of the Wikidata links in a
similar way, but that might be already exaggerated.


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David Abián

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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Pine W
In reply to this post by David Abián
I'm hesitant to support hiding information from readers, including links to
Wikidata. As an alternative to hiding information, could articles that are
semi-protected on Wikipedia (I assume that this refers to ENWP, but perhaps
it refers to other languages also) automatically have semi-protection
applied to the relevant items on Wikidata?

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

David Abián
Vandalism mainly comes from es.wikipedia, but more Wikipedias are affected.

What you suggest was proposed by Lydia at
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T205783> considering a threshold of N
Wikipedias.


El 29/10/18 a las 19:29, Pine W escribió:
> I'm hesitant to support hiding information from readers, including links to
> Wikidata. As an alternative to hiding information, could articles that are
> semi-protected on Wikipedia (I assume that this refers to ENWP, but perhaps
> it refers to other languages also) automatically have semi-protection
> applied to the relevant items on Wikidata?

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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Pine W
OK, so that makes at least two of us thinking along those lines. I suggest
that you cross-post this discussion to the Wikidata email list to invite
more people to participate in this discussion.

Thanks for bringing up this subject for discussion. I am not fond of
vandals.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )


On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 6:58 PM David Abián <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Vandalism mainly comes from es.wikipedia, but more Wikipedias are affected.
>
> What you suggest was proposed by Lydia at
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T205783> considering a threshold of N
> Wikipedias.
>
>
> El 29/10/18 a las 19:29, Pine W escribió:
> > I'm hesitant to support hiding information from readers, including links
> to
> > Wikidata. As an alternative to hiding information, could articles that
> are
> > semi-protected on Wikipedia (I assume that this refers to ENWP, but
> perhaps
> > it refers to other languages also) automatically have semi-protection
> > applied to the relevant items on Wikidata?
>
> --
> David Abián
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Daniel Kinzler-3
In reply to this post by Pine W
Am 29.10.18 um 7:29 nachm. schrieb Pine W:
> I'm hesitant to support hiding information from readers, including links to
> Wikidata. As an alternative to hiding information, could articles that are
> semi-protected on Wikipedia (I assume that this refers to ENWP, but perhaps
> it refers to other languages also) automatically have semi-protection
> applied to the relevant items on Wikidata?

Does this only apply to the "connected" data item, or all data items used? Note
that some items are used on a *lot* of pages, and would end up always protected.
Maybe that'S good, if they are used so much, don't know. It would be hard to see
on Wikidata why they are protected, though. Also, I cannot think of an efficient
way to manage this information in the database.

Also, would you also want this the other way around? If the data item is
protected, the respective page on all wikis should be automatically protected?


--
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Software Engineer, Core Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Amir E. Aharoni
Including information from Wikidata in a page is not so different from
transcluding a template. So in theory, protecting a page from vandalism
through Wikidata should be similar to cascading protection, which exists in
core and auto-protects images and transcluded templates on a page. In fact,
maybe cascading protection should simply apply to transcluded items.

Of course, it's more difficult to extend cascading protection to Wikidata
because Wikidata is a different wiki (even Commons images are not included
in cascading protection last time I checked). Nevertheless, it should be a
goal.

And maybe—just maybe—getting blocked on one wiki could make one
automatically blocked on wikis that are common repositories, such as
Commons and Wikidata (and perhaps Meta), although this should be reversible.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬


‫בתאריך יום ג׳, 30 באוק׳ 2018 ב-0:06 מאת ‪Daniel Kinzler‬‏ <‪
[hidden email]‬‏>:‬

> Am 29.10.18 um 7:29 nachm. schrieb Pine W:
> > I'm hesitant to support hiding information from readers, including links
> to
> > Wikidata. As an alternative to hiding information, could articles that
> are
> > semi-protected on Wikipedia (I assume that this refers to ENWP, but
> perhaps
> > it refers to other languages also) automatically have semi-protection
> > applied to the relevant items on Wikidata?
>
> Does this only apply to the "connected" data item, or all data items used?
> Note
> that some items are used on a *lot* of pages, and would end up always
> protected.
> Maybe that'S good, if they are used so much, don't know. It would be hard
> to see
> on Wikidata why they are protected, though. Also, I cannot think of an
> efficient
> way to manage this information in the database.
>
> Also, would you also want this the other way around? If the data item is
> protected, the respective page on all wikis should be automatically
> protected?
>
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Software Engineer, Core Platform
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Daniel Kinzler-3
Am 29.10.2018 um 23:34 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
> And maybe—just maybe—getting blocked on one wiki could make one
> automatically blocked on wikis that are common repositories, such as
> Commons and Wikidata (and perhaps Meta), although this should be reversible.

I like that idea, actually. It could just be a block option.

--
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 6:35 PM Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Of course, it's more difficult to extend cascading protection to Wikidata
> because Wikidata is a different wiki (even Commons images are not included
> in cascading protection last time I checked). Nevertheless, it should be a
> goal.
>

I'm not so sure of that. Some admin on a tiny, little-watched wiki then
could cascade-protect arbitrary Commons images and Wikidata items by
overusing cascade protection despite not having adminship on Commons or
Wikidata.


> And maybe—just maybe—getting blocked on one wiki could make one
> automatically blocked on wikis that are common repositories, such as
> Commons and Wikidata (and perhaps Meta), although this should be
> reversible.
>

Same problem.

We'd likely wind up having to have Stewards start policing the use of
cascade protection and blocking on all wikis to adjudicate whether one
wiki's use of cascade protection or blocking was really trying to disrupt
Commons/Wikidata/Meta.

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Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: If users can't edit an article, don't encourage them to edit its Wikidata item

David Abián
In reply to this post by David Abián
Probably some of you can help with...

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T208315 (MediaWiki)

... or...

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T208279 (Wikibase).

These tasks seem feasible and uncontroversial.

Thanks!

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