Image filter

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Image filter

Möller, Carsten
The ugly content censors are raising their heads again.

Just stop it and dont spend any more funds on this.

I understand between the lines that it was stopped in order to protect the fundraiser from unwanted discussions in the public.

Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in hiding knowledge.

Carsten Möller
Hamburg Germany


>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:00 AM, phoebe ayers
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi MZ and all --
> >
> > Project development was put on hold over the winter in favor of more
> > pressing priorities, with the agreement of the Board. There is
> > currently an open proposal on the table for the Board to vote on
> > whether to continue with our original request for an image hiding
> > feature; and the ED will take direction from the Board on
> the matter.
> > We have put that vote off however due to the more time-sensitive and
> > generally all-consuming financial discussions of the past couple of
> > months. I haven't reported on it one way or the other because the
> > timeline for a revote hasn't yet been set.
> >


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Re: Image filter

Thomas Morton
>
> Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in
> hiding knowledge.
>

The day that Wiki*edia changes its mission from providing access to free
knowledge to "enforcing our view of knowledge on you", would be a saddening
day.

Tom
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Re: Image filter

Nathan Awrich
On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Thomas Morton
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> >
> > Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in
> > hiding knowledge.
> >
>
> The day that Wiki*edia changes its mission from providing access to free
> knowledge to "enforcing our view of knowledge on you", would be a saddening
> day.
>
> Tom
>

It does that already, in a lot of ways. As catholic as it attempts to be,
the "knowledge paradigm" that Wikimedia represents is only a small sliver
of the sum of knowledge in the world. That's just one way in which it
enforces its view of knowledge; acceding to or refusing to filter content
in any way is also enforcing a particular view of both knowledge and the
world. It would do both sides well to approach this argument with a little
less arrogance and self-righteousness.

Nathan
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Re: Image filter

Neil Babbage

And it misses the point that the purpose of providing knowledge is for it to be used. Wikimedia projects will be unavailable to those who would benefit from them if they continue to provide content that is unsuitable or unwanted with no mechanism for the consumer to control it.

If you ran a charity store committed to providing educational products free to all who needed them you wouldn't get many children as customers if you put hardcore sex products right by the entrance. You also wouldn't manage to give anything away if nobody could find what they wanted

Wikimedia is not supposed to be some kind of exercise in perfection for perfection's sake. It's supposed to be open, accessible and useful.


 
Neil / QuiteUnusual@Wikibooks

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:50:57
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Image filter

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Thomas Morton
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> >
> > Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in
> > hiding knowledge.
> >
>
> The day that Wiki*edia changes its mission from providing access to free
> knowledge to "enforcing our view of knowledge on you", would be a saddening
> day.
>
> Tom
>

It does that already, in a lot of ways. As catholic as it attempts to be,
the "knowledge paradigm" that Wikimedia represents is only a small sliver
of the sum of knowledge in the world. That's just one way in which it
enforces its view of knowledge; acceding to or refusing to filter content
in any way is also enforcing a particular view of both knowledge and the
world. It would do both sides well to approach this argument with a little
less arrogance and self-righteousness.

Nathan
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Re: Image filter

Thomas Morton
Yes, this is the critical thing.

We work reasonably well as a repository of *all knowledge*. As Nathan says,
that is still imperfect, but out of scope of this discussion (I'd certainly
recommend looking into it though).

We also work quite well as a filter of information. And it is improving
this that we are currently discussing.

Improving the filtering of information is a critical facet of making it
accessible to as many people as possible. If a Muslim refuses to go to
Wikipedia because of our image policy - which we (realistically) impose on
him - then we have failed in our core objective.

@Nathan;

> It does that already, in a lot of ways.

True, but that is not the intended mission. They day that happens, that is
a terrible day.

Tom

On 9 March 2012 14:06, Neil Babbage <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> And it misses the point that the purpose of providing knowledge is for it
> to be used. Wikimedia projects will be unavailable to those who would
> benefit from them if they continue to provide content that is unsuitable or
> unwanted with no mechanism for the consumer to control it.
>
> If you ran a charity store committed to providing educational products
> free to all who needed them you wouldn't get many children as customers if
> you put hardcore sex products right by the entrance. You also wouldn't
> manage to give anything away if nobody could find what they wanted
>
> Wikimedia is not supposed to be some kind of exercise in perfection for
> perfection's sake. It's supposed to be open, accessible and useful.
>
>
>
> Neil / QuiteUnusual@Wikibooks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan <[hidden email]>
> Sender: [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:50:57
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <
> [hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Image filter
>
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Thomas Morton
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in
> > > hiding knowledge.
> > >
> >
> > The day that Wiki*edia changes its mission from providing access to free
> > knowledge to "enforcing our view of knowledge on you", would be a
> saddening
> > day.
> >
> > Tom
> >
>
> It does that already, in a lot of ways. As catholic as it attempts to be,
> the "knowledge paradigm" that Wikimedia represents is only a small sliver
> of the sum of knowledge in the world. That's just one way in which it
> enforces its view of knowledge; acceding to or refusing to filter content
> in any way is also enforcing a particular view of both knowledge and the
> world. It would do both sides well to approach this argument with a little
> less arrogance and self-righteousness.
>
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Image filter

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Möller, Carsten
Hoi,
With all due respect, there are plenty of images that do not particularly
add to the sum of all wisdom. There are plenty of images in that category
that do not add anything at all to what is already there.

Commons has as its motto: "a database of
12,349,098<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Statistics>
 freely usable<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Reusing_content_outside_Wikimedia>
media
files to which anyone can
contribute<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Welcome>
."
This is valid however it needs a lot of work before it is the database of
freely usable media files where you can actually find what you are looking
for. Add to this the real hesitation people have to advertise it as the
quality repository it more or less is because of problematic imagery it
includes and you have a situation where you have to ask yourself: What is
Commons there for.

   - it is the repository for images used on the WMF projects
   - it is a repository of images that is made optimally available to all
   seekers

I am sure that there can be an option that allows you or someone else to
see "everything", good luck with that. I am equally sure that because of
there not being the filters we have discussed all too often many people
will continue to refrain from using Commons.

The question you have to ask yourself, where is the value in Commons when
we do not optimise it as much as possible so that it will be the repository
of choice of freely licensed imagery.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 9 March 2012 11:24, Möller, Carsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The ugly content censors are raising their heads again.
>
> Just stop it and dont spend any more funds on this.
>
> I understand between the lines that it was stopped in order to protect the
> fundraiser from unwanted discussions in the public.
>
> Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in
> hiding knowledge.
>
> Carsten Möller
> Hamburg Germany
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:00 AM, phoebe ayers
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hi MZ and all --
> > >
> > > Project development was put on hold over the winter in favor of more
> > > pressing priorities, with the agreement of the Board. There is
> > > currently an open proposal on the table for the Board to vote on
> > > whether to continue with our original request for an image hiding
> > > feature; and the ED will take direction from the Board on
> > the matter.
> > > We have put that vote off however due to the more time-sensitive and
> > > generally all-consuming financial discussions of the past couple of
> > > months. I haven't reported on it one way or the other because the
> > > timeline for a revote hasn't yet been set.
> > >
>
>
> --
> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
> We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighter has removed 6493 of my spam emails to date.
> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
>
> The Professional version does not have this message
>
>
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Re: Image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
Am 09.03.2012 15:34, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> The question you have to ask yourself, where is the value in Commons when
> we do not optimise it as much as possible so that it will be the repository
> of choice of freely licensed imagery.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
That's right. But why did the current approaches only had one goal - the
exclusion/hiding of controversial media - in mind?

nya~

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Re: Image filter

Thomas Morton
On 9 March 2012 14:47, Tobias Oelgarte <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Am 09.03.2012 15:34, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>
>  The question you have to ask yourself, where is the value in Commons when
>> we do not optimise it as much as possible so that it will be the
>> repository
>> of choice of freely licensed imagery.
>> Thanks,
>>      GerardM
>>
> That's right. But why did the current approaches only had one goal - the
> exclusion/hiding of controversial media - in mind?
>
>
Partly because it is the low hanging fruit (i.e. the thing that will have
the most impact in forwarding our goals of accessible knowledge).

Partly because of the old adage that things that people complain about the
most are those that get noticed.

It is unfortunate that the board chose to cast the initiative in this
light; because I can entirely see why some factions would find it
unpalatable (as presented).

Tom
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Re: Image filter

David Gerard-2
On 9 March 2012 14:50, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Partly because it is the low hanging fruit (i.e. the thing that will have
> the most impact in forwarding our goals of accessible knowledge).


Citation needed.


- d.

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Re: Image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
Am 09.03.2012 15:50, schrieb Thomas Morton:

> On 9 March 2012 14:47, Tobias Oelgarte<[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Am 09.03.2012 15:34, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>>
>>   The question you have to ask yourself, where is the value in Commons when
>>> we do not optimise it as much as possible so that it will be the
>>> repository
>>> of choice of freely licensed imagery.
>>> Thanks,
>>>       GerardM
>>>
>> That's right. But why did the current approaches only had one goal - the
>> exclusion/hiding of controversial media - in mind?
>>
>>
> Partly because it is the low hanging fruit (i.e. the thing that will have
> the most impact in forwarding our goals of accessible knowledge).
In other words, it was the first topic that came to mind (Fox+Larry),
followed by the first approach that they could think of. Like a child
that did something bad and tries to hide it in the hope that the parents
would not find out.
> Partly because of the old adage that things that people complain about the
> most are those that get noticed.
Perfectly right. But this behaviour has nothing to do with tackling the
problem or to grab it at the root.
> It is unfortunate that the board chose to cast the initiative in this
> light; because I can entirely see why some factions would find it
> unpalatable (as presented).
It's not only the presentation. It is the actual way of thought how to
handle problems or to look at things that might be a problem.

nya~

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Re: Image filter

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Forget about Mr Larry Fox, I have never met him and I do not care really
what he has to say. It is not even relevant if it is the first question to
be tackled, it is an issue that is being tackled. The one thing that is
relevant is: is this something that prevents the use of Commons. If this is
not the case we can continue with other issues and implement tags and ditch
categories for instance. If it is the case, lets get the show on the road
and get ready for  the next thing.

It is often good to concentrate on an issue and then tackle the next.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 9 March 2012 16:01, Tobias Oelgarte <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Am 09.03.2012 15:50, schrieb Thomas Morton:
>
>  On 9 March 2012 14:47, Tobias Oelgarte<tobias.oelgarte@**googlemail.com<[hidden email]>
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  Am 09.03.2012 15:34, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>>>
>>>  The question you have to ask yourself, where is the value in Commons
>>> when
>>>
>>>> we do not optimise it as much as possible so that it will be the
>>>> repository
>>>> of choice of freely licensed imagery.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>      GerardM
>>>>
>>>>  That's right. But why did the current approaches only had one goal -
>>> the
>>> exclusion/hiding of controversial media - in mind?
>>>
>>>
>>>  Partly because it is the low hanging fruit (i.e. the thing that will
>> have
>> the most impact in forwarding our goals of accessible knowledge).
>>
> In other words, it was the first topic that came to mind (Fox+Larry),
> followed by the first approach that they could think of. Like a child that
> did something bad and tries to hide it in the hope that the parents would
> not find out.
>
>  Partly because of the old adage that things that people complain about the
>> most are those that get noticed.
>>
> Perfectly right. But this behaviour has nothing to do with tackling the
> problem or to grab it at the root.
>
>  It is unfortunate that the board chose to cast the initiative in this
>> light; because I can entirely see why some factions would find it
>> unpalatable (as presented).
>>
> It's not only the presentation. It is the actual way of thought how to
> handle problems or to look at things that might be a problem.
>
> nya~
>
>
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Re: Image filter

Andreas Kolbe-2
In reply to this post by Neil Babbage
On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Neil Babbage <[hidden email]> wrote:


> If you ran a charity store committed to providing educational products
> free to all who needed them you wouldn't get many children as customers if
> you put hardcore sex products right by the entrance.



^^^ This. ^^^
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Re: Image filter

Tobias Oelgarte
Am 09.03.2012 18:15, schrieb Andreas Kolbe:
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Neil Babbage<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>
>> If you ran a charity store committed to providing educational products
>> free to all who needed them you wouldn't get many children as customers if
>> you put hardcore sex products right by the entrance.
>
>
> ^^^ This. ^^^
The little difference is that we aren't a store and have no front or
back room. We are a skyscraper with an elevator and hundreds of buttons
for every floor, while kids tend to press on any button at once.

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Re: Image filter

Fae-6
On 9 March 2012 17:34, Tobias Oelgarte <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The little difference is that we aren't a store and have no front or back
> room. We are a skyscraper with an elevator and hundreds of buttons for every
> floor, while kids tend to press on any button at once.

No, we are a gigantic media-funfair carousel with 10,000 people forced
to ride on demonic wooden horses, the sound of the screams of their
terrified children unable to be heard due to blaring music speeding
out of control, while a hundred angry chimpanzees wearing fezzes take
random pot shots with "badsite" sponsored air rifles. Do I win the
cuddly toy?

I think this thread is officially off-topic, or at least as likely to
reach a new destination as a carousel.

Cheers,
Fae

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Re: Image filter

Kim Bruning
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
On Fri, Mar 09, 2012 at 02:17:28PM +0000, Thomas Morton wrote:
> Improving the filtering of information is a critical facet of making it
> accessible to as many people as possible. If a Muslim refuses to go to
> Wikipedia because of our image policy - which we (realistically) impose on
> him - then we have failed in our core objective.

Hmm, well ar.wikipedia (who probably have a large number of muslim
editors) does have an image hiding template; apparently adequate for
their needs.  They introduced it to a very small number of pages, but
that number has halved over time.

AFAICT The people who are pushing for filtering are mostly from what we
traditionally regard as being the West.

sincerely,
        Kim Bruning

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Re: Image filter

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Neil Babbage
On 03/09/12 6:06 AM, Neil Babbage wrote:
> Wikimedia is not supposed to be some kind of exercise in perfection for perfection's sake. It's supposed to be open, accessible and useful.
>
>
"Useful", like "notable" is another of those words that cannot be easily
defined. In many otherwise non-controversial articles we have pictures
that do not further the contents of the articles.  They may have a loose
connection with the article's topic, but they don't add any information
to the topic. They do, however, break up solid blocks of text, and make
it more readable.

Ray

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Re: Image filter

Thomas Morton
On 10 March 2012 00:57, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/09/12 6:06 AM, Neil Babbage wrote:
>
>> Wikimedia is not supposed to be some kind of exercise in perfection for
>> perfection's sake. It's supposed to be open, accessible and useful.
>>
>>
>>  "Useful", like "notable" is another of those words that cannot be easily
> defined. In many otherwise non-controversial articles we have pictures that
> do not further the contents of the articles.  They may have a loose
> connection with the article's topic, but they don't add any information to
> the topic. They do, however, break up solid blocks of text, and make it
> more readable.
>
>
But isn't that an equally subjective matter; I know several editors who
consider such images (to break up prose) a hindrance and they remove them
with vigour.

To me you're just making an argument for a "Images used in a decorative
capacity" category, so those people can read undisturbed :)

Tom
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Re: Image filter

Neil Babbage
In reply to this post by Möller, Carsten

I was using "useful" in its most basic sense - to mean "capable of being used at all". That is, in the context of this discussion, avoids the current situation where there is a risk that the whole encyclopedia (or any other project) is off limits to certain groups or individuals because they can't satisfy the basic need of being able to find what they want to read or see easily and safely. I'm not an advocate of anything more than a mechanism that allows users to express preferences and use search tools that accurately follow those preferences regardless of what they are. Personally I'd love to be able to filter fancruft out of searches.

My point is that providing this capability is not censorship and the screams of protest that it would strike at the core of Wikimedia's mission are ludicrous. It is not censorship to help a consumer of information find what they want quickly and to avoid what they don't want. Not providing this capability is censoring the whole of Wikipedia for people who don't want to risk being exposed to inappropriate material.

Refusing to help meet the needs of these people has an "ivory tower" smell about it; we don't care if nobody uses Wikipedia as long as it is perfect.  This attitude strikes across the core principle of the movement to make knowledge available to all.
 

------Original Message------
From: Ray Saintonge
To: [hidden email]
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Image filter
Sent: 10 Mar 2012 00:57

On 03/09/12 6:06 AM, Neil Babbage wrote:
> Wikimedia is not supposed to be some kind of exercise in perfection for perfection's sake. It's supposed to be open, accessible and useful.
>
>
"Useful", like "notable" is another of those words that cannot be easily
defined. In many otherwise non-controversial articles we have pictures
that do not further the contents of the articles.  They may have a loose
connection with the article's topic, but they don't add any information
to the topic. They do, however, break up solid blocks of text, and make
it more readable.

Ray


Neil / QuiteUnusual@Wikibooks
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Re: Image filter

Birgitte_sb
In reply to this post by Andreas Kolbe-2




On Mar 9, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Andreas Kolbe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Neil Babbage <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> If you ran a charity store committed to providing educational products
>> free to all who needed them you wouldn't get many children as customers if
>> you put hardcore sex products right by the entrance.
>
>
>

A better description would be Wikimedia a warehouse of educational products collecting and disbursing informational products freely.  Without any barriers of proving the need of the product, nor setup as consumer-focused store.  

The charity stores for children in need should stock there shelves from Wikimedia's warehouse.

Yes this means Wikimedia will see less growth on the consumption side, but the choice is between losing ground on consumption and losing ground on creation/curation. Other groups can handle a successful kid-friendly shop much more likely than other groups can successfully handle our contributors.

Wikimedia can't be everything to everyone.  It would be best to aim to be where our strengths lie.

BirgitteSB
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Re: Image filter

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
Thomas Morton wrote:
>> Give as a clear message, that Wikipedia/Wikimedia will never assist in
>> hiding knowledge.
>
> The day that Wiki*edia changes its mission from providing access to free
> knowledge to "enforcing our view of knowledge on you", would be a saddening
> day.

You've excluded Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikispecies, Wikisource, etc. there.
I guess it would be less sad for them.

MZMcBride



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