Inclusionists vs deletionists

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Inclusionists vs deletionists

Alan Liefting
Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than
the deletionists around the deletion discussions?


A



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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Amir E. Aharoni
2012/3/22 Alan Liefting <[hidden email]>:
> Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than the
> deletionists around the deletion discussions?

If you tell us how you counted, we can try to agree or to disagree.
It's pointless to talk about subjective feelings.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Mike DuPont
In reply to this post by Alan Liefting
maybe it is because the deletionists delete the messages before they send
them
mike

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Alan Liefting <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than
> the deletionists around the deletion discussions?
>
>
> A
>
>
>
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--
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Inclusionism and deletionism are a spectrum not a binary choice, wherever
you are on that spectrum there will be editors who are more deletionist or
more inclusionist than yourself. The closer you are to one end of the
spectrum the more likely it is that you will think that the other end of
the spectrum is dominant.

Which is a longwinded way of sadly saying no, in fact it's very much the
opposite. Deletion debates generally attract deletionists, especially as
the inclusionists have to take more time the more potential sources they
can check.

WSC

On 22 March 2012 19:20, Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>wrote:

> 2012/3/22 Alan Liefting <[hidden email]>:
> > Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than
> the
> > deletionists around the deletion discussions?
>
> If you tell us how you counted, we can try to agree or to disagree.
> It's pointless to talk about subjective feelings.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Alan Liefting
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni


On 23/03/2012 8:20 a.m., Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> 2012/3/22 Alan Liefting<[hidden email]>:
>> Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than the
>> deletionists around the deletion discussions?
> If you tell us how you counted, we can try to agree or to disagree.
> It's pointless to talk about subjective feelings.
Feelings are by definition subjective. Anyhow, without doing some real
in-depth research it will only be subjective.

Alan

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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Alan Liefting
> Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than
> the deletionists around the deletion discussions?
>
>
> A

Sure, there can only be one Crinch.

Fred



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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Dario Taraborelli-3
In reply to this post by Alan Liefting
There is a good body research around who participates in deletion discussions (particularlyin the English Wikipedia). These studies mostly looked at the breakdown by tenure [1] or diversity of participants in AfD discussions or the effects of the size of a discussion on its outcome [2])  In [3] we looked specifically at evidence of heterogeneity in AfD discussions indicating participation by deletionists or inclusionists. We found two classes of users who participate in significantly different ways in these discussions (such that their !voting behavior is poorly predicted by the baseline probability of an average AfD participants, but is predicted much more accurately by the typical profile of editors with a "deletion" or "inclusion" tendency). We had no data available to determine whether these AfD participants who consistently voted for keeping or deleting AfD-nominated pages did so because of some kind of !vote stacking via organized action or because of a natural tendency towards one of these two stances on deletion.

Dario

[1] Geiger, R. S., & Ford, H. (2011). Participation in Wikipedia’s article deletion processes. Proceedings of the 7th International Symposium on Wikis and Open Collaboration - WikiSym  ’11 (p. 201). New York, New York, USA: ACM Press. http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2038558.2038593 - http://www.wikisym.org/ws2011/_media/proceedings:p201-geiger.pdf

[2] Lam, S. K., Karim, J., & Riedl, J. (2010). The effects of group composition on decision quality in a social production community. Proceedings of the 16th ACM international conference on Supporting group work - GROUP  ’10 (p. 55). New York, New York, USA: ACM Press. http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/1880071.1880083 - http://www.grouplens.org/system/files/Lam+Wikipedia+Group+Discussion.pdf

[3] Taraborelli, D., & Ciampaglia, G. L. (2010). Beyond Notability. Collective Deliberation on Content Inclusion in Wikipedia. 2010 Fourth IEEE International Conference on Self-Adaptive and Self-Organizing Systems Workshop (pp. 122-125). Budapest: IEEE. http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/SASOW.2010.26 - http://nitens.org/docs/qteso10.pdf

On Mar 22, 2012, at 12:38 PM, Alan Liefting wrote:

> On 23/03/2012 8:20 a.m., Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>> 2012/3/22 Alan Liefting<[hidden email]>:
>>> Does anyone agree with me that the inclusionists are more numerous than the
>>> deletionists around the deletion discussions?
>> If you tell us how you counted, we can try to agree or to disagree.
>> It's pointless to talk about subjective feelings.
> Feelings are by definition subjective. Anyhow, without doing some real in-depth research it will only be subjective.
>
> Alan
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Tom Morris-5
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2

On Thursday, 22 March 2012 at 19:34, WereSpielChequers wrote:

> Inclusionism and deletionism are a spectrum not a binary choice, wherever
> you are on that spectrum there will be editors who are more deletionist or
> more inclusionist than yourself. The closer you are to one end of the
> spectrum the more likely it is that you will think that the other end of
> the spectrum is dominant.
>
> Which is a longwinded way of sadly saying no, in fact it's very much the
> opposite. Deletion debates generally attract deletionists, especially as
> the inclusionists have to take more time the more potential sources they
> can check.


I think that's probably a bit too broad-brushed too. Certain types of deletion debates tend to have no reference to -isms, because there's an understood and clearly applicable standard. On English Wikipedia, look at WikiProject Football, where they have a pretty clear notability standard (NFOOTY) such that most deletions aren't that contentious.

As an admin who closes a fair few AfDs, and as a human being who isn't a big fan of loudmouthed ideological posturing, I have to say that I rather like such topic areas.

--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>



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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Carcharoth
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Tom Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As an admin who closes a fair few AfDs, and as a human being who isn't a big fan of loudmouthed ideological posturing, I have to say that I rather like such topic areas.

Well, there is currently an AfD in progress that is looking a bit like
a train wreck, so some do still split the community. Though the issue
is more BLP than notability (though notability is borderline). I'm
tempted to actually formalise the proposal I've had floating around
for a while (in my head) to say that BLPs and (biographical articles
in general) should require published biographies during the person's
lifetime and/or obituaries after death. Would anyone on this mailing
list be willing to bounce ideas around about that? The sticking point
is what constitutes a 'published biography'?

Carcharoth

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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Fred Bauder-2
> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Tom Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> As an admin who closes a fair few AfDs, and as a human being who isn't
>> a big fan of loudmouthed ideological posturing, I have to say that I
>> rather like such topic areas.
>
> Well, there is currently an AfD in progress that is looking a bit like
> a train wreck, so some do still split the community. Though the issue
> is more BLP than notability (though notability is borderline). I'm
> tempted to actually formalise the proposal I've had floating around
> for a while (in my head) to say that BLPs and (biographical articles
> in general) should require published biographies during the person's
> lifetime and/or obituaries after death. Would anyone on this mailing
> list be willing to bounce ideas around about that? The sticking point
> is what constitutes a 'published biography'?
>
> Carcharoth

Goes too far. A Procrustean Bed.

Fred



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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Carcharoth
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Goes too far. A Procrustean Bed.

Really?

What about this proposal?

"In light of such examples, I think it’s high time to start a
discussion on whether to amend Wikipedia’s BLP policy as follows:
 
*WP contributors will not start biographies on lesser-known living
people without their permission. The project is full of three-sentence
stubs on people of minor notability, more often than not started by
contributors eager to increase their number of “articles created”.

*If a lesser-known biographical subject wants their WP biography
deleted, their request will be honored. The biographical information
for this subject will be replaced with a template stating something
along the lines of: "We regret that Ms/Mrs/Mr X decided not to have
his biography featured on WP. For further information, please consult
their website."

That was from User:DracoEssentialis (12:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)).

I'm also going to post what I proposed at that AfD, but I'll do that
in another thread.

Carcharoth

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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Ken Arromdee
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012, Carcharoth wrote:
> *WP contributors will not start biographies on lesser-known living
> people without their permission. The project is full of three-sentence
> stubs on people of minor notability, more often than not started by
> contributors eager to increase their number of “articles created”.

In the Did You Know discussion, someone brought up the possibility that a
an inappropriate DYK (about a recent murder victim's body) was created
to increase a user's Wikicup.  I hadn't even heard of Wikicup, and when I
checked it out it seemed like trouble waiting to happen.

When you have an Xbox or Playstation game and people get Achievements on it,
that's relatively harmless.  Nobody cares if someone goes around trying to
beat a monster in under 30 seconds in order to gain a bunch of ultimately
useless points.  (Though even then there have been cases where achievements
disrupted multiplayer games.)  But when you have a similar system on
Wikipedia, you end up encouraging activity that would be considered OCD in
other contexts.  Regardless of how useless the points are, you have people
concentrating more on points than on doing what Wikipedia is meant to do.

Wikipedia is not an online multiplayer game, and it shouldn't encourage
people to treat it as one.  It shouldn't have scores, and it shouldn't judge
contributors in ways that encourage treating it like it has scores.
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Re: Inclusionists vs deletionists

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Carcharoth
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Goes too far. A Procrustean Bed.
>
> Really?
>
> What about this proposal?
>
> "In light of such examples, I think it’s high time to start a
> discussion on whether to amend Wikipedia’s BLP policy as follows:
>
> *WP contributors will not start biographies on lesser-known living
> people without their permission. The project is full of three-sentence
> stubs on people of minor notability, more often than not started by
> contributors eager to increase their number of “articles created”.
>
> *If a lesser-known biographical subject wants their WP biography
> deleted, their request will be honored. The biographical information
> for this subject will be replaced with a template stating something
> along the lines of: "We regret that Ms/Mrs/Mr X decided not to have
> his biography featured on WP. For further information, please consult
> their website."
>
> That was from User:DracoEssentialis (12:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)).
>
> I'm also going to post what I proposed at that AfD, but I'll do that
> in another thread.
>
> Carcharoth

A living person should have the right to request and get deletion of a
sketchy biography. However, often full biographical details of someone
who is clearly notable not only are seldom available, but also not of any
particular value to the reader. Attempts to fill them in based on sketchy
information do not give happy results. It is what they did that is
notable that we have information about.

Fred


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