Jayjg is AWOL

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Marc Riddell
on 8/28/07 11:56 PM, Jimmy Wales at [hidden email] wrote:

> John Lee wrote:
>> Might not be fair, but it reflects the perception of how we deal with
>> whistle-blowers. Arguably we haven't had a serious case of something rotten
>> in the state of Wikipedia being exposed, but is there any assurance that how
>> we deal with false whistle-blowers will not be the same way we deal with
>> real ones?
>
> I don't think we really have "whistle-blowers" because we are vibrant
> open community which is constantly engaged in honest self-assessment and
> internal dialog, in an atmosphere where respectful dissent and diversity
> of viewpoints is not just tolerated but actively encouraged.
>
> And yes, this is never perfect, but I think we do a pretty good job of it.
>
Jimmy,

Much of what you say here is, unfortunately, purely theoretical. There is a
strong (if misguided) blind loyalty factor which causes many to take any
dissent or criticism of the Project personally; and their reactions reflect
this. Critics are seen as enemies at the gate; even when they are behind
that gate.

Marc Riddell

--
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
takes to sit down and listen."

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state
of things."

                                                    Winston Churchill


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
We are not immune from group dynamics. Fight or Flight remains an option for us, although it is seldom the optimal response.

It is hard to get down to work and craft a sane response, but that is our job.

Even in the context of circled wagons.

Fred

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Riddell [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 06:08 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is not AWOL
>
>on 8/28/07 11:56 PM, Jimmy Wales at [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> John Lee wrote:
>>> Might not be fair, but it reflects the perception of how we deal with
>>> whistle-blowers. Arguably we haven't had a serious case of something rotten
>>> in the state of Wikipedia being exposed, but is there any assurance that how
>>> we deal with false whistle-blowers will not be the same way we deal with
>>> real ones?
>>
>> I don't think we really have "whistle-blowers" because we are vibrant
>> open community which is constantly engaged in honest self-assessment and
>> internal dialog, in an atmosphere where respectful dissent and diversity
>> of viewpoints is not just tolerated but actively encouraged.
>>
>> And yes, this is never perfect, but I think we do a pretty good job of it.
>>
>Jimmy,
>
>Much of what you say here is, unfortunately, purely theoretical. There is a
>strong (if misguided) blind loyalty factor which causes many to take any
>dissent or criticism of the Project personally; and their reactions reflect
>this. Critics are seen as enemies at the gate; even when they are behind
>that gate.
>
>Marc Riddell
>
>--
>"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
>takes to sit down and listen."
>
>"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
>function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state
>of things."
>
> Winston Churchill
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
On 29 Aug 2007 at 08:08:30 -0400, Marc Riddell
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
> takes to sit down and listen."
>
> "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
> function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state
> of things."
>
>                                                     Winston Churchill

"There are all kinds of courage," said Dumbledore, smiling.  "It
takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as
much to stand up to our friends."

  J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone


--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/



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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Marc Riddell
on 8/29/07 9:51 PM, Daniel R. Tobias at [hidden email] wrote:

> On 29 Aug 2007 at 08:08:30 -0400, Marc Riddell
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it
>> takes to sit down and listen."
>>
>> "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
>> function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state
>> of things."
>>
>> Winston Churchill
>
> "There are all kinds of courage," said Dumbledore, smiling.  "It
> takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as
> much to stand up to our friends."
>
> J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
>
:-)

Marc


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Ray Saintonge
Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 8/29/07 9:51 PM, Daniel R. Tobias at [hidden email] wrote:
>  
>> "There are all kinds of courage," said Dumbledore, smiling.  "It
>> takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as
>> much to stand up to our friends."
>>
>> J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
>>    
> :-)
>
> Marc
>  
It takes far more to stand up to up friends.

Ec

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

geni
In reply to this post by Armed Blowfish
On 8/29/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28/08/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 28 Aug 2007 at 08:43:52 -0500, "Armed Blowfish"
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Like I said, Wikipaedia is also an attack site.  David hardly started that.
> >> It's ingrained in the culture.
> >
> > So we shouldn't be linking to it, I guess.
>
> Or perhaps Wikipaedia could stop being an attack site?  For
> example, let OTRS do its job without fighting them every
> step of the way?

I think you have misunderstood what OTRS is for.


--
geni

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Bryan Derksen
In reply to this post by Armed Blowfish
Armed Blowfish wrote:
> No.  There are plenty of matters on which I disagree with Jayjg.
> But I do believe he means well, and oversight is basically a Good
> Thing (TM), quite usefull for protecting privacy.  Letting me
> know exactly what sort of information is being protected
> would defeat the point of protecting it.

Knowing what _sort_ of information is being oversighted is a far cry
from knowing the information itself, I don't see how it defeats the
point. If I were to ask why something was oversighted there's a big
difference between getting the answer "because it contained personal
identifying material" and "it contained the home address of
User:Encyclofreak, who lives at 121 Big Tree Road in Seattle, NV".


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Todd Allen
Bryan Derksen wrote:

> Armed Blowfish wrote:
>  
>> No.  There are plenty of matters on which I disagree with Jayjg.
>> But I do believe he means well, and oversight is basically a Good
>> Thing (TM), quite usefull for protecting privacy.  Letting me
>> know exactly what sort of information is being protected
>> would defeat the point of protecting it.
>>    
>
> Knowing what _sort_ of information is being oversighted is a far cry
> from knowing the information itself, I don't see how it defeats the
> point. If I were to ask why something was oversighted there's a big
> difference between getting the answer "because it contained personal
> identifying material" and "it contained the home address of
> User:Encyclofreak, who lives at 121 Big Tree Road in Seattle, NV".
>
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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>  
That was brought up on-wiki as well, and I would tend to agree. Just
like a deleted attack article just contains a deletion summary,
something to the effect of "G10: Attack page", but not the offending
text itself. There's a big difference between "Oversighter removed 2
revisions: Contained personal information" and "Someuser's phone number
is 123-456-7890! Call him and tell him he sucks!"


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Charlotte Webb
In reply to this post by Bryan Derksen
On 8/30/07, Bryan Derksen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Armed Blowfish wrote:
> > No.  There are plenty of matters on which I disagree with Jayjg.
> > But I do believe he means well, and oversight is basically a Good
> > Thing (TM), quite usefull for protecting privacy.  Letting me
> > know exactly what sort of information is being protected
> > would defeat the point of protecting it.
>
> Knowing what _sort_ of information is being oversighted is a far cry
> from knowing the information itself, I don't see how it defeats the
> point. If I were to ask why something was oversighted there's a big
> difference between getting the answer "because it contained personal
> identifying material" and "it contained the home address of
> User:Encyclofreak, who lives at 121 Big Tree Road in Seattle, NV".

To know what _sort_ of gems have been oversighted is, in effect, to
know whether one might, for personal amusement (or gain!), be bothered
to poke around for them in the previous database dump.

—C.W.

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Charlotte Webb
In reply to this post by John Lee-14
On 8/28/07, John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...is there any assurance that how we deal with false whistle-blowers
> will not be the same way we deal with real ones?

We'd need some way to actually tell the difference. Obviously,
different variations will arise, each with a proper metaphor, whether
it be a referee, a freight train, a tea-kettle, the Keystone Cops, or
the familiar "car window not all the way up" sound. Easy enough for
the human ear to distinguish, but not so for the eye.

[WHISTLE BLOWING]
CAPTAIN: What you say?

One can whistle the same note for several paragraphs and it may never
become apparent whether the "human at the other end" is laughing, or
crying, or cursing, or humming, or (coincidentally) whistling while
writing the stuff. They could be horribly off-key too, but we wouldn't
know.

—C.W.

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