Jayjg is AWOL

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Jimmy Wales
Frank Bellowes wrote:
> Jimbo, the day that demands for accountability become "trolling" is
> the day Wikipedia ceases to be a project with some sort of social good
> in mind and becomes a private club. I don't think that's what most
> Wikipedians signed on to.
>
> Please do not label legitimate questions "trolling" just because you
> seem to prefer private accommodation to public responsibility.

Asking for accountability is fine.  You know that I strongly support
transparency and accountability.  You are attempting, without much
success, to put a spin on this that no makes no sense at all.

We are having a private discussion by email.  This is normal, we do it
all the time.  Anything that happens about this will be made clear and
public and transparent.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Steven Walling
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
Thanks for taking time out of the conversation with Jay to answer us. If
y'all say you're talking with him, that's perfectly acceptable to me.
There's certainly a precedence for keeping sensitive personal stuff from a
user conduct hearing private.

On 8/27/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Frank Bellowes wrote:
> > On 8/27/07, Matthew Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Jay has been communicative in email with Jimbo and members of the
> arbcom.
> >>
> >> -Matt
> >
> > Don't members of the project deserve some sort of explanation,
> > particularly when he is under scrutiny in one ArbComm case and on ANI?
>
> When there is something to explain, we will explain it.  Jeez.
>
> > If there is no transparency then there is no ability for other admins
> > or users to respond (and possibly refute) whatever private
> > explanations Jayjg may have proffered for his actions. This is not how
> > an accountable, transparent project works.
>
> Stop trolling.  Good grief.  We are having a private discussion.
>
> --Jimbo
>
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Nick-136
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
I'll likely be dismissed as being naive, but if the the discussion concerns
the material which has been oversighted, rightfully or not, then there's not
a great deal that can be discussed in public until those with access to the
logs and material can make a decision as to whether or not the oversight
tool has been abused, and if so, what impact that's had on anything. If
there is material that was abusively oversighted and it can be presented in
public, then I'm sure we'll see it, along with any other relevant
information.

On 27/08/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 8/27/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > NavouWiki wrote:
> > > He does not have to explain his absence.
> >
> > The claimed "absence" is a lie.
> >
> > --Jimbo
> >
>
> The claimed "absence" is a fact. He hasn't made any edits since August
> 4th and has made no statement explaining his absence. He disappeared
> in conjunction with an RFA case in which he's named as a party.
>
> This behaviour is very irresponsible for a "trusted admin" let alone
> one with various entitlements on the project.
>
> It is reasonable to expect a modicum of accountability and
> transparency. That the ArbComm is discussing this behind closed doors,
> without any sort of mechanism for feedback by users or any sort of
> transparency does not enhance the credibility of the project,
> particularly at a time when it has come under severe criticism that
> has eroded our standing.
>
> Frank
>
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>



--
Nick
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nick
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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
On 8/27/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Jimbo, the day that demands for accountability become "trolling" is
> the day Wikipedia ceases to be a project with some sort of social good
> in mind and becomes a private club. I don't think that's what most
> Wikipedians signed on to.
>
> Please do not label legitimate questions "trolling" just because you
> seem to prefer private accommodation to public responsibility.

The Wikipedia structure is not set up with total transparency.  We
have always had a structure that understood that some issues require
private review, due to sensitivity or personal information.  Any
organization in the real world has such issues and avenues for private
review.

It's not trolling to ask "are you looking at this?" or state "I'm very
concerned about this".

It is trolling, when told "we're looking at this" and "we're
concerned, too", to reply "BUT YOU NEED TO DO IT IN PUBLIC!!!".

We don't need to do it in public.

We shouldn't want to do it in public.  I don't want to be part of an
organization which refuses to conduct legitimately sensitive business
in private.

Accountability in some situations is "we trust Arbcom and Jimbo, who
we find to be honorable trustworthy people and who we expect to do the
right thing for Wikipedia, and explain to the degree possible
afterwards".


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by Nick-136
Nick wrote:
> I'll likely be dismissed as being naive, but if the the discussion concerns
> the material which has been oversighted, rightfully or not, then there's not
> a great deal that can be discussed in public until those with access to the
> logs and material can make a decision as to whether or not the oversight
> tool has been abused, and if so, what impact that's had on anything. If
> there is material that was abusively oversighted and it can be presented in
> public, then I'm sure we'll see it, along with any other relevant
> information.

I am sure it will be widely discussed.  I am going to refrain from
discussing my own views of it right now because I am still deliberating.

But I am willing to say that some people who have been trolling about
this case should be ashamed of themselves.  Deeply ashamed.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

John Reaves
In reply to this post by Nick-136
Frank Bellowes:Is it save to assume that you don't edit Wikipedia? Or that
you aren't going to tell us your username?

--John Reaves
--User:John Reaves
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
"Frank Bellowes" wrote

> The claimed "absence" is a fact.

AWOL is Absence Without Leave, of course. If there is anyone I should be asking before I take a vacation, can you point them out to me? I did think we were all volunteers.

Charles


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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

crock spot
Jayjg's little thingy on my gmail was green last night, meaning that he was
indeed alive and logged into gmail, or at least someone who knew his
password.

Crockspot

On 8/27/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> "Frank Bellowes" wrote
>
> > The claimed "absence" is a fact.
>
> AWOL is Absence Without Leave, of course. If there is anyone I should be
> asking before I take a vacation, can you point them out to me? I did think
> we were all volunteers.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
> Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam
>
>
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
On 27/08/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/27/07, Matthew Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Jay has been communicative in email with Jimbo and members of the arbcom.
> >
> > -Matt
>
> Don't members of the project deserve some sort of explanation,
> particularly when he is under scrutiny in one ArbComm case and on ANI?
>
> If there is no transparency then there is no ability for other admins
> or users to respond (and possibly refute) whatever private
> explanations Jayjg may have proffered for his actions. This is not how
> an accountable, transparent project works.

Deserve some sort of explanation?  Just like they 'deserved' an explanation
about my history of getting abused, even after they banned me and I left?
Why do you use Tor, Armed Blowfish?  Why why why?  You are showing
bad judgement by using Tor.  Your reasons need to be out in the open for
the community to deliberate on.  (And, of course, when I did share... what?
More attacks.)  Hey, not my bloody fault I got abused.

Really, did it occur to you that Jayjg's reasons might be personal?  If he's
willing to talk to ArbCom about it, good for him, that's more than I was
(initially) willing to do.

ArbCom has access to information you don't and shouldn't have access to.
Let them deal with it.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
Jayjg is actively engaged in our conversations.

Fred

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steven Walling [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 12:08 PM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is AWOL
>
>Navou is correct that a simple absence doesn't entail desyssoping. But
>failing to respond to repeated attempts to engage for the purpose of an
>ArbCom hearing most definitely has resulted in indef blocks, if not
>desyssoping.


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
Accountable in what way?  Available for public flogging?  He already is,
and that's not merely 'accountable', that's Draconian.

(Jayjg, if you are reading this, you have my support on the matter,
whatever the issue is.)

On 27/08/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jimbo, the day that demands for accountability become "trolling" is
> the day Wikipedia ceases to be a project with some sort of social good
> in mind and becomes a private club. I don't think that's what most
> Wikipedians signed on to.
>
> Please do not label legitimate questions "trolling" just because you
> seem to prefer private accommodation to public responsibility.
>
> On 8/27/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Let me nip this in the bud.
> >
> > Frank Bellowes wrote:
> > > At the very least Jimbo should direct the ArbComm to examine Jay's
> > > possible abuse of his Oversight tools and investigate other possible
> > > abuses.  The dereliction of duty by a senior admin is a serious
> > > problem which should not be swept under the carpet or overlooked.
> > > Doing so only further damages Wikipedia's credibility in a year in
> > > which we have taken a number of serious blows.
> >
> > This entire email was ludicrous, frankly.
> >
> > Jayjg (and SlimVirgin) have both been responsive and participating in
> > the discussion about this.
> >
> > If people wonder why we do some discussions like this privately, Frank's
> > email is a good example of why... trolling.
> >
> >
> > --Jimbo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Risker
In reply to this post by fredbaud
Thank you, Fred.  That was really all that anyone needs to know - that Jayjg
is informed of the situation and is working with Arbcom to address matters.
I am sure many editors were concerned at Jayjg's on-wiki absence, if for no
other reason than that a long serving editor who holds amongst the highest
level of rights should be informed of the issues before the Arbcom that
directly relate to him.  At the same time, many of us have not established a
"personal" relationship with Jayjg and thus would be hesitant to involve
ourselves in what would clearly be an unpleasant situation.

Risker


On 8/27/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Jayjg is actively engaged in our conversations.
>
> Fred
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Steven Walling [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 12:08 PM
> >To: 'English Wikipedia'
> >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is AWOL
> >
> >Navou is correct that a simple absence doesn't entail desyssoping. But
> >failing to respond to repeated attempts to engage for the purpose of an
> >ArbCom hearing most definitely has resulted in indef blocks, if not
> >desyssoping.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by Steven Walling
Steven Walling wrote:
> Navou is correct that a simple absence doesn't entail desyssoping. But
> failing to respond to repeated attempts to engage for the purpose of an
> ArbCom hearing most definitely has resulted in indef blocks, if not
> desyssoping.

Well in the event anything resembling that happens, let me know.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

James Farrar
In reply to this post by Risker
On 27/08/07, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thank you, Fred.  That was really all that anyone needs to know - that Jayjg
> is informed of the situation and is working with Arbcom to address matters.
> I am sure many editors were concerned at Jayjg's on-wiki absence, if for no
> other reason than that a long serving editor who holds amongst the highest
> level of rights should be informed of the issues before the Arbcom that
> directly relate to him.  At the same time, many of us have not established a
> "personal" relationship with Jayjg and thus would be hesitant to involve
> ourselves in what would clearly be an unpleasant situation.

I agree entirely.

However, there is one thing that needs to be said: describing as "a
lie" the comment that Jayjg is absent (which he is, as far as we
ordinary plebs can see) is unhelpful - unless there's proof that Frank
was aware that Jayjg was not absent before his email of 1752UTC today.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
On 27/08/07, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27/08/07, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thank you, Fred.  That was really all that anyone needs to know - that Jayjg
>> is informed of the situation and is working with Arbcom to address matters.
>> I am sure many editors were concerned at Jayjg's on-wiki absence, if for no
>> other reason than that a long serving editor who holds amongst the highest
>> level of rights should be informed of the issues before the Arbcom that
>> directly relate to him.  At the same time, many of us have not established a
>> "personal" relationship with Jayjg and thus would be hesitant to involve
>> ourselves in what would clearly be an unpleasant situation.
>
> I agree entirely.
>
> However, there is one thing that needs to be said: describing as "a
> lie" the comment that Jayjg is absent (which he is, as far as we
> ordinary plebs can see) is unhelpful - unless there's proof that Frank
> was aware that Jayjg was not absent before his email of 1752UTC today.

True... a lie is not anything one disagrees with, but rather
intentional and vocal
deception.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by James Farrar
James Farrar wrote:
> However, there is one thing that needs to be said: describing as "a
> lie" the comment that Jayjg is absent (which he is, as far as we
> ordinary plebs can see) is unhelpful - unless there's proof that Frank
> was aware that Jayjg was not absent before his email of 1752UTC today.

Look at all his emails after I told him.  I think my charge of trolling
sticks easily.  This was not a good faith inquiry, this is an ongoing
attempt to politicize an issue internally by misleading people.

If Frank wants to apologize for behaving badly, I will forgive him.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

James Farrar
On 27/08/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> James Farrar wrote:
> > However, there is one thing that needs to be said: describing as "a
> > lie" the comment that Jayjg is absent (which he is, as far as we
> > ordinary plebs can see) is unhelpful - unless there's proof that Frank
> > was aware that Jayjg was not absent before his email of 1752UTC today.
>
> Look at all his emails after I told him.  I think my charge of trolling
> sticks easily.  This was not a good faith inquiry, this is an ongoing
> attempt to politicize an issue internally by misleading people.

As may be. Was it actually a lie, though?

Calling someone a liar is generally a good way to inflame a situation.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
On 27/08/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> James Farrar wrote:
> > However, there is one thing that needs to be said: describing as "a
> > lie" the comment that Jayjg is absent (which he is, as far as we
> > ordinary plebs can see) is unhelpful - unless there's proof that Frank
> > was aware that Jayjg was not absent before his email of 1752UTC today.
>
> Look at all his emails after I told him.  I think my charge of trolling
> sticks easily.  This was not a good faith inquiry, this is an ongoing
> attempt to politicize an issue internally by misleading people.
>
> If Frank wants to apologize for behaving badly, I will forgive him.
>
> --Jimbo

Disagreement is not the same as lying.  Apparently his definition of
absence looks only at the contributions history.

Hey, I disagree with him too.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2

> On 27/08/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Don't members of the project deserve some sort of explanation,
>> particularly when he is under scrutiny in one ArbComm case and on ANI?
>
on 8/27/07 2:27 PM, David Gerard at [hidden email] wrote:

> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>
That's certainly a well thought-out, articulate, example-setting statement.
So much for intelligent conversation. :-(

Marc Riddell


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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

FT2
In reply to this post by fredbaud
There is a delicate balance of interests in a debate like this.

First, some topics will /only/ be fully explored in private with trusted
individuals, rather than the entire open community -- especially if there
are seriously personal or admin/project reasons to consider.  Office, OTRS,
arb-email, checkuser, oversight... Wikipedia is far from completely
transparent and this /already/ has a high degree of communal assent.

Second, not everyone wants their debate to become troll-fodder -- and by
this I don't mean people in this discussion, I mean people out to stir
trouble or with an axe to grind or grudge, or warriors or fantasists who
would pick up any quotes from the mailing list and wiki, and run off
half-assed theories and speculations about it, likely destroying Jayjg's
reputation before a fair neutral discussion can be obtained.  This matter
does cover sensitive stuff after all.

So there are serious and good reasons to expect some matters /will/ contain
a private aspect.


The flip side is, this works if one trusts the process and individuals
concerned, and  the result will eventually be made as transparent as
possible and fair, and if one believes a fair conclusion will be reached.
Adminship is first and foremost a statement of strong confidence by the
community, and oversight more so.  If that confidence is (right or wrongly)
threatened it's usually a serious impediment and concern.  Also, anxiety in
the face of reduced information on a serious matter is natural for many
people.  It doesn't need to merit harsh words.  Ultimately, if the community
eventually feels it knows enough, will have reasonable answers, and feels
reassured in the end, that'll be what counts.  A bit like oversight, it's
more important to feel it is well judged and have some sense why it's gone
that way, and what it meant.


When I first heard "AWOL" I feared for Jayjg, and hoped he was okay. My
first reaction was not to jump on the drama of his wiki editing, but to
consider him as a human being as well as respect the concerns noted in the
email.  I'm reassured that he is well, glad he is in contact, and glad to
hear it's being carefully discussed. If the final resolution reassures and
validates community confidence, I would say that is all the rest that's
needed.  

As for Jayjg himself, I hope he has acted properly in all this, since he has
given greatly of his time and effort to the community and project, and I'm
fairly sure nobody is letting the discussion being held in private, gather
dust.


FT2.



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