Jayjg is AWOL

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
On 27/08/07, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27/08/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > James Farrar wrote:
> > > However, there is one thing that needs to be said: describing as "a
> > > lie" the comment that Jayjg is absent (which he is, as far as we
> > > ordinary plebs can see) is unhelpful - unless there's proof that Frank
> > > was aware that Jayjg was not absent before his email of 1752UTC today.
> >
> > Look at all his emails after I told him.  I think my charge of trolling
> > sticks easily.  This was not a good faith inquiry, this is an ongoing
> > attempt to politicize an issue internally by misleading people.
>
> As may be. Was it actually a lie, though?
>
> Calling someone a liar is generally a good way to inflame a situation.

To be specific, it's a good way to ensure the person keeps arguing the
point, rather than agreeing to disagree, since you escalate the importance
of the veracity of the statement to his or her reputation of honesty.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by James Farrar
James Farrar wrote:
> As may be. Was it actually a lie, though?
>
> Calling someone a liar is generally a good way to inflame a situation.

You are right, and I should not have done that.  I am sorry.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by Armed Blowfish
Armed Blowfish wrote:
>  To be specific, it's a good way to ensure the person keeps arguing the
> point, rather than agreeing to disagree, since you escalate the importance
> of the veracity of the statement to his or her reputation of honesty.

In this particular case, it seems clear to me who "Frank" is, and if I
am right, then he is actually in fact lying, since he knows more than he
is letting on.  But since I don't know for sure, I retract the statement
and simply say: Frank's complaints are entirely without merit, as Jay is
not AWOL at all.

Keep in mind that there really are trolls, and I mean that term in the
technical sense of people who post things strictly to stir up trouble.
I consider trolling behavior to be almost always dishonest and rooted in
dishonesty.



--Jimbo

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by George William Herbert
on 8/27/07 2:40 PM, George Herbert at [hidden email] wrote:

> It's not trolling to ask "are you looking at this?" or state "I'm very
> concerned about this".

George,

Thanks for this. The word "trolling", the phrase "to troll", and what
defines "a troll" all seem to have different meanings to different people in
the Community. One person, writing in this thread, defined it as "stirring
shit up".

If trying to call attention to issues you feel are important to the health
of the Community - but you believe are being ignored - is "trolling" - then
I qualify. In fact, using my definition - my university offered a Ph.D.
program in Trolling (subtitled: stirring shit up) :-).

Marc Riddell


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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

brock.weller@gmail.com
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
This seems to be an issue you're taking rather seriously Jimbo, and I've
noticed in your replies here. I mean this in the sense you just seem a
little short while dealing with it, probably because of the time its taking
up for you, both in the situation at hand, here, explaining it, and the case
itself. I appreciate your willingness to keep private information private,
and I commend your willingness to take a step back and breath. Detente is
good for all. Frank may wish to apologize as well, because intentionally or
not, his comments were trolling. Let's defuse this now before it gets more
heated.

On 8/27/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> James Farrar wrote:
> > As may be. Was it actually a lie, though?
> >
> > Calling someone a liar is generally a good way to inflame a situation.
>
> You are right, and I should not have done that.  I am sorry.
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
-Brock
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

geni
In reply to this post by FT2
On 8/27/07, FT2 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is a delicate balance of interests in a debate like this.
>
> First, some topics will /only/ be fully explored in private with trusted
> individuals, rather than the entire open community -- especially if there
> are seriously personal or admin/project reasons to consider.  Office, OTRS,
> arb-email, checkuser, oversight... Wikipedia is far from completely
> transparent and this /already/ has a high degree of communal assent.


The problem is that in this case we are in effect asking the inner
community to judge one of their own. So far their record in this area
isn't great.

There are ways around this such as asking fr.arbcom to reivew the
issues but that would tend to create language problems.

--
geni

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
Marc Riddell wrote

>The word "trolling", the phrase "to troll", and what
> defines "a troll" all seem to have different meanings to different people in
> the Community. One person, writing in this thread, defined it as "stirring
> shit up".

A troll, to translate, is a provocateur. There are numerous ways of doing the provocation. I suppose the classification is roughly into those who value the attention, and those who value the mischief. Either way, the non-feeding advice is always the soundest. I'm afraid meditations on essentialism for trollness, tenable or not, fail that test.

Charles

-----------------------------------------
Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam


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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Nick-136
In reply to this post by geni
If you did want to bring in an "uninvolved" body trusted to deal with
sensitive information, as means of some independent overviewers of the
proceedings or as a body charged with dealing with the charges, there are
OTRS volunteers who should be as equally trusted as checkuser/oversight
people, there's checkusers/oversight people from Commons who seem very
trustworthy, and I believe the English language Wikinews has an arbitration
committee, though I don't know who's on their committee, so I can't say much
there.

On 27/08/07, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 8/27/07, FT2 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There is a delicate balance of interests in a debate like this.
> >
> > First, some topics will /only/ be fully explored in private with trusted
> > individuals, rather than the entire open community -- especially if
> there
> > are seriously personal or admin/project reasons to consider.  Office,
> OTRS,
> > arb-email, checkuser, oversight... Wikipedia is far from completely
> > transparent and this /already/ has a high degree of communal assent.
>
>
> The problem is that in this case we are in effect asking the inner
> community to judge one of their own. So far their record in this area
> isn't great.
>
> There are ways around this such as asking fr.arbcom to reivew the
> issues but that would tend to create language problems.
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Nick
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nick
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Philip Sandifer-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2


On Aug 27, 2007, at 2:24 PM, David Gerard wrote:

> On 27/08/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> And when can we expect some sort of update on the situation or  
>> details
>> about what is going on?
>
>
> Probably never by being a cock about it, as here.

I believe what David meant to say was "We sincerely hope that you  
will refrain from being a penis."

-Phil
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

NavouWiki
Where is your mind?

I thought he was referring to a rooster?!

Navou

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Sandifer
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 5:23 PM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Jayjg is AWOL



On Aug 27, 2007, at 2:24 PM, David Gerard wrote:

> On 27/08/07, Frank Bellowes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> And when can we expect some sort of update on the situation or  
>> details
>> about what is going on?
>
>
> Probably never by being a cock about it, as here.

I believe what David meant to say was "We sincerely hope that you  
will refrain from being a penis."

-Phil
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.

There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.


--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/



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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Stephen Bain
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
On 8/28/07, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Marc Riddell wrote
>
> >The word "trolling", the phrase "to troll", and what
> > defines "a troll" all seem to have different meanings to different people in
> > the Community. One person, writing in this thread, defined it as "stirring
> > shit up".
>
> A troll, to translate, is a provocateur. There are numerous ways of doing the provocation. I suppose the classification is roughly into those who value the attention, and those who value the mischief. Either way, the non-feeding advice is always the soundest. I'm afraid meditations on essentialism for trollness, tenable or not, fail that test.

It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
them trolls.

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Adrian-73
Stephen Bain schrieb:

> On 8/28/07, [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Marc Riddell wrote
>>
>>    
>>> The word "trolling", the phrase "to troll", and what
>>> defines "a troll" all seem to have different meanings to different people in
>>> the Community. One person, writing in this thread, defined it as "stirring
>>> shit up".
>>>      
>> A troll, to translate, is a provocateur. There are numerous ways of doing the provocation. I suppose the classification is roughly into those who value the attention, and those who value the mischief. Either way, the non-feeding advice is always the soundest. I'm afraid meditations on essentialism for trollness, tenable or not, fail that test.
>>    
>
> It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
> them trolls.
>  
Only a troll would say such a thing.

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Stephen Bain
On 8/28/07, Adrian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Only a troll would say such a thing.

Whether they're the type of troll that seeks attention or the type
that seeks mischief, actually calling them a troll will just satisfy
their needs.

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by Stephen Bain

> On 8/28/07, [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Marc Riddell wrote
>>
>>> The word "trolling", the phrase "to troll", and what
>>> defines "a troll" all seem to have different meanings to different people in
>>> the Community. One person, writing in this thread, defined it as "stirring
>>> shit up".
>>
>> A troll, to translate, is a provocateur. There are numerous ways of doing the
>> provocation. I suppose the classification is roughly into those who value the
>> attention, and those who value the mischief. Either way, the non-feeding
>> advice is always the soundest. I'm afraid meditations on essentialism for
>> trollness, tenable or not, fail that test.

on 8/27/07 7:11 PM, Stephen Bain at [hidden email] wrote:

> It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
> them trolls.

Stephen,

Yes. Present to what the person is saying; and not speculate on why they are
saying it.

Marc


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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias

> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.

on 8/27/07 6:59 PM, Daniel R. Tobias at [hidden email] wrote:
>
> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.

And, who moderates the moderator?

Marc


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Matthew Brown-5
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
On 8/27/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes. Present to what the person is saying; and not speculate on why they are
> saying it.

IMO, sometimes speculating on motives is quite productive.  Although
it need not be turned into posted words.  For one thing, it may inform
as to whether responding to what someone's saying may be productive,
or not.

-Matt

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Marc Riddell
on 8/27/07 9:02 PM, Matthew Brown at [hidden email] wrote:

> On 8/27/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Yes. Present to what the person is saying; and not speculate on why they are
>> saying it.
>
> IMO, sometimes speculating on motives is quite productive.  Although
> it need not be turned into posted words.  For one thing, it may inform
> as to whether responding to what someone's saying may be productive,
> or not.
>
You're right, Matt. I was speaking of an actual response. But deciding
whether what's been said is worth responding to or not is a good first step.
And, as you say, if your gut tells you they are just trying to flame for its
own sake - will any response just feed that flame. Good point.

Marc


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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias
On 27/08/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>
> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.
>
>
> --
> == Dan ==
> Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
> Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
> Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/

There's none on Wikipaedia either, at least not one people actually
pay attention too.  Let's see... if you ask for offensive material to go
poof! from ED, they will make the situation worse.  If you ask for
offensive material to go poof! from Wikipaedia, they will do the same
thing.  Hrmmmm......

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by Matthew Brown-5
Matthew Brown wrote:

> Jay has been communicative in email with Jimbo and members of the arbcom.
>
> -Matt
>
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>  
I don't know that that justifies characterizing it as a "lie", when up
until that email was sent no one knew that. I don't agree that his
absence, even were it true, should be held against him, after all none
of us get paid to do this, but that being said, calling someone a liar
for stating something which appears true based on the information
available to them is not the finest example of civility I've ever seen.


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