Jayjg is AWOL

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Todd Allen
Jimmy Wales wrote:

> James Farrar wrote:
>  
>> As may be. Was it actually a lie, though?
>>
>> Calling someone a liar is generally a good way to inflame a situation.
>>    
>
> You are right, and I should not have done that.  I am sorry.
>
> --Jimbo
>
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>  
And my turn to apologize, I sent my own comment on that without seeing
that this had already been addressed.


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Ron Ritzman
In reply to this post by Stephen Bain
On 8/27/07, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
> them trolls.

You're right, a better term for this is "drama whore".

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:40:50 -0400, Marc Riddell
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> And, who moderates the moderator?

Who watches the watchmen?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/



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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

George William Herbert
On 8/27/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:40:50 -0400, Marc Riddell
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > And, who moderates the moderator?
>
> Who watches the watchmen?

The mice.  Who are in turn watched by the cats.

We have to assume that everyone here is more or less trying to do the
right thing.  Some people may disprove that assumption.


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Mark Ryan
It has been made clear in the course of this thread that the ArbCom
etc. are presently in contact with Jayjg about the issues which have
been raised.

Since we vote on the ArbCom to handle stuff like this for us, I think
any further talk on this while their discussions are ongoing is not
going to go anywhere except a downward spiral towards moderation.

~Mark Ryan

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
Frank Bellowes wrote:
> The Sockpuppet case is old and evidently occurred when SV was still a
> new editor though, given that she used an "alternate account" to
> support her main account on various pages including "double voting" in
> the instance of a Featured Article nomination, it would have been nice
> had she simply publicly admitted her mistake and apologized. Instead,
> she has sent out private emails explaining away the "alternate
> account" by saying wikipedia was different then, she was new and her
> double voting was simply a "mistake". I think we can excuse an old
> mistake but a bit of contrition would have been nice.
Expecting contrition so long after the fact seems over the top.  At this
late stage there is no way that apologies should be required.  In the
real world there are statutes of limitations to prevent accusers from
leaning too far backwards when they try to put their heads up their
asses.  Recent behaviour is far more significant than ancient history.  
I would prefer looking at that recent activity as more indicative of
future trends and look forward with a positive attitude.

Ec


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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Matthew Brown-5
Matthew Brown wrote:
> On 8/27/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Yes. Present to what the person is saying; and not speculate on why they are
>> saying it.
>>    
> IMO, sometimes speculating on motives is quite productive.  
Especially if what you are trying to produce is dissent.

Ec

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 8/27/07 2:40 PM, George Herbert at [hidden email] wrote:
>  
>> It's not trolling to ask "are you looking at this?" or state "I'm very
>> concerned about this".
>>    
> George,
>
> Thanks for this. The word "trolling", the phrase "to troll", and what
> defines "a troll" all seem to have different meanings to different people in
> the Community. One person, writing in this thread, defined it as "stirring
> shit up".
>
> If trying to call attention to issues you feel are important to the health
> of the Community - but you believe are being ignored - is "trolling" - then
> I qualify. In fact, using my definition - my university offered a Ph.D.
> program in Trolling (subtitled: stirring shit up) :-).
For me there is also a distinction between the verb and the noun.  The
verb has to do with putting out a baited line behind a boat to induce
the fish to byte.  The noun is the ugly thing that sits under Norwegian
bridges waiting to catch unwary children.

The practice described by the verb has its place, and is a perfectly
honourable technique for getting people to pay attention to a topic.  
Getting caught is a part of the game, and should not result in the
offended denials that we so often see.  It's so much nicer to admit
trying to stir things up a little, and moving on.

Ec



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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

James Farrar
On 28/08/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The practice described by the verb has its place, and is a perfectly
> honourable technique for getting people to pay attention to a topic.
> Getting caught is a part of the game, and should not result in the
> offended denials that we so often see.  It's so much nicer to admit
> trying to stir things up a little, and moving on.

It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it?

I occasionally play devil's advocate
You are a troll
He has been placed on moderation

:-)

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Daniel R. Tobias
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
On 27 Aug 2007 at 23:31:48 -0400, "Ron Ritzman" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 8/27/07, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
> > them trolls.
>
> You're right, a better term for this is "drama whore".

"Troll" (and its sometimes-creative synonyms and variants) seems to
be a special exception to the "No Personal Attacks" policy, as people
have no restraint from using it freely against anybody who has
something to say that they'd rather not hear.

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/



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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

KillerChihuahua
In reply to this post by Frank Bellowes
Has it entered your mind at all that Jimbo /is/ behaving responsibly?
Note that satisfying /your/ curiosity is not synonymous with responsibly.

Frank Bellowes wrote:

> Jimbo, the day that demands for accountability become "trolling" is
> the day Wikipedia ceases to be a project with some sort of social good
> in mind and becomes a private club. I don't think that's what most
> Wikipedians signed on to.
>
> Please do not label legitimate questions "trolling" just because you
> seem to prefer private accommodation to public responsibility.
>
> On 8/27/07, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Let me nip this in the bud.
>>
>> Frank Bellowes wrote:
>>    
>>> At the very least Jimbo should direct the ArbComm to examine Jay's
>>> possible abuse of his Oversight tools and investigate other possible
>>> abuses.  The dereliction of duty by a senior admin is a serious
>>> problem which should not be swept under the carpet or overlooked.
>>> Doing so only further damages Wikipedia's credibility in a year in
>>> which we have taken a number of serious blows.
>>>      
>> This entire email was ludicrous, frankly.
>>
>> Jayjg (and SlimVirgin) have both been responsive and participating in
>> the discussion about this.
>>
>> If people wonder why we do some discussions like this privately, Frank's
>> email is a good example of why... trolling.
>>
>>
>> --Jimbo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>    
>
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>
>
>  

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

KillerChihuahua
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias
Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
/not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
thought, but stay on topic.

Daniel R. Tobias wrote:

> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>  
>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>    
>
> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.
>
>
>  

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Marc Riddell
on 8/28/07 9:10 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:

> Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
> And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
> /not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
> thought, but stay on topic.

OK, "go away" may be a "legitimate request" (actually, it reads like an
order); but what do you call "you trolling fuckwit"?

Marc Riddell

>
> Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>>
>>
>> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias

> On 27 Aug 2007 at 23:31:48 -0400, "Ron Ritzman" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/27/07, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
>>> them trolls.
>>
>> You're right, a better term for this is "drama whore".
>
on 8/28/07 8:49 AM, Daniel R. Tobias at [hidden email] wrote:

> "Troll" (and its sometimes-creative synonyms and variants) seems to
> be a special exception to the "No Personal Attacks" policy, as people
> have no restraint from using it freely against anybody who has
> something to say that they'd rather not hear.

Exactly! That does seem to happen a lot here. It's like George Bush calling
anyone who speaks against the slaughter (excuse me, war) in Irag
'unpatriotic'. But this works only if the rest of us buy into the bullshit.

Marc



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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
On 28/08/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> on 8/28/07 9:10 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
>> And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
>> /not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
>> thought, but stay on topic.
>
> OK, "go away" may be a "legitimate request" (actually, it reads like an
> order); but what do you call "you trolling fuckwit"?
>
> Marc Riddell

Like I said, Wikipaedia is also an attack site.  David hardly started that.
It's ingrained in the culture.

>> Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>>> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.

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Re: Jayjg is not AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias
On 28/08/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 Aug 2007 at 23:31:48 -0400, "Ron Ritzman" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 8/27/07, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > It seems to me that a useful way to not feed the trolls is to not call
> > > them trolls.
> >
> > You're right, a better term for this is "drama whore".
>
> "Troll" (and its sometimes-creative synonyms and variants) seems to
> be a special exception to the "No Personal Attacks" policy, as people
> have no restraint from using it freely against anybody who has
> something to say that they'd rather not hear.
>
> --
> == Dan ==
> Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
> Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
> Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/

'Troll' is just the beginning of the exceptions.

Wikipaedia and ED have too much in common.  ;_;

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by Armed Blowfish
on 8/28/07 9:43 AM, Armed Blowfish at [hidden email]
wrote:

> On 28/08/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> on 8/28/07 9:10 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>> Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
>>> And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
>>> /not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
>>> thought, but stay on topic.
>>
>> OK, "go away" may be a "legitimate request" (actually, it reads like an
>> order); but what do you call "you trolling fuckwit"?
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>
> Like I said, Wikipaedia is also an attack site.  David hardly started that.
> It's ingrained in the culture.

If this is so, and we expect to become - and to remain - a legitimate,
respected project - we've got a lot of work to do.

I personally believe that the vast majority of Community Members are above
that sort of behavior. That's where the hope comes from.

Marc

>
>>> Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>>>> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

KillerChihuahua
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
I note you are ignoring my plea to keep this thread on-topic. You have
moved your focus from David's post to my plea to not muddy the waters by
adding a sub-topic about terminology and phrasing which you find
objectionable. Not sure that's an improvement.

Allow me to copyedit David's email, if it will help:

"Perhaps it would be better if you accepted that your personal curiosity cannot be satisfied on this issue. There are sometimes private issues which must be considered, but would cause more harm than good to publicize. I am sure that once the investigation is complete, we will all be informed of the findings, sans any details which are of a delicate or potentially harmful nature. I am certain you will understand, and that you merely did not consider the larger issues."

Better? Longer, I'll grant.. but it says the exact same damn thing, except for some flattery (I'm not the least bit "certain" he'll get it.) Only it wouldn't have gotten to the point so well, and probably would have been lost in the thread. David's has the advantage of shock value, which commands attention.





Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 8/28/07 9:10 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:
>
>  
>> Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
>> And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
>> /not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
>> thought, but stay on topic.
>>    
>
> OK, "go away" may be a "legitimate request" (actually, it reads like an
> order); but what do you call "you trolling fuckwit"?
>
> Marc Riddell
>
>  
>> Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>>    
>>> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>    
>
>
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>
>
>  

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
On 28/08/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> on 8/28/07 9:43 AM, Armed Blowfish at [hidden email]
> wrote:
>
>> On 28/08/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> on 8/28/07 9:10 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
>>>> And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
>>>> /not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
>>>> thought, but stay on topic.
>>>
>>> OK, "go away" may be a "legitimate request" (actually, it reads like an
>>> order); but what do you call "you trolling fuckwit"?
>>>
>>> Marc Riddell
>>
>> Like I said, Wikipaedia is also an attack site.  David hardly started
> that.
>> It's ingrained in the culture.
>
> If this is so, and we expect to become - and to remain - a legitimate,
> respected project - we've got a lot of work to do.

Let's see... if you ask for offencive material to be removed from ED, they
will make the situation worse.  If you ask for offencive material to be
removed from Wikipaedia, they might very well do the same thing.

More courtesy blankings, deletions and oversights would help solve this
problem.  Also, try avoiding public interrogation of OTRS members on
private matters.

> I personally believe that the vast majority of Community Members are above
> that sort of behavior. That's where the hope comes from.
>
> Marc

It really doesn't matter if it is intentional or not.   Courtesy
blankings, deletions
and oversights are not sanctions against the users who made the comments.

However, there are certain societal values that encourage attacks.  Placing
freedom of information and Google's right to cache above the feelings of
real people.  Placing the public's right to know who people are above the
privacy and safety of people who seriously could get hurt.  Placing the need
to punish those who do 'bad' things above actually resolving the situation,
even if they were only responding to bad things which were done to them.
The belief that if someone is attacked, they must have done something to
deserve it.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, will make the whole world blind and
toothless.

>>>> Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>>>>> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.

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Re: Jayjg is AWOL

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by KillerChihuahua
on 8/28/07 10:17 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:

> I note you are ignoring my plea to keep this thread on-topic.

No, I have rejected your attempts to bury this incident.

> You have
> moved your focus from David's post to my plea to not muddy the waters by
> adding a sub-topic about terminology and phrasing which you find
> objectionable. Not sure that's an improvement.
>
> Allow me to copyedit David's email, if it will help:
>
> "Perhaps it would be better if you accepted that your personal curiosity
> cannot be satisfied on this issue. There are sometimes private issues which
> must be considered, but would cause more harm than good to publicize. I am
> sure that once the investigation is complete, we will all be informed of the
> findings, sans any details which are of a delicate or potentially harmful
> nature. I am certain you will understand, and that you merely did not consider
> the larger issues."
>
> Better? Longer, I'll grant.. but it says the exact same damn thing, except for
> some flattery (I'm not the least bit "certain" he'll get it.) Only it wouldn't
> have gotten to the point so well, and probably would have been lost in the
> thread. David's has the advantage of shock value, which commands attention.
>
I believe it is time we heard from David himself.

Marc Riddell

>
>
>
> Marc Riddell wrote:
>> on 8/28/07 9:10 AM, Puppy at [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Legitimate requests are not attacks, regardless of how they are phrased.
>>> And criticizing terminology is expanding the issue needlessly. Shall we
>>> /not/ see how many sub-issues we can drag into this thread? Just a
>>> thought, but stay on topic.
>>>
>>
>> OK, "go away" may be a "legitimate request" (actually, it reads like an
>> order); but what do you call "you trolling fuckwit"?
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>>
>>
>>> Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27 Aug 2007 at 19:27:25 +0100, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Go away, you trolling fuckwit.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> There's no "No Personal Attacks" policy on this list, apparently.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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