Jimbo and his strategy

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
Yes, exactly my point. Admins simply enjoy blocking
others due to whatever reason they mention. I checked
that user's userpage and I found nothing in disorder.
I also checked their history. It might be an ugly
userpage, but nothing more severe than that. I don't
see why he was blocked.

--- Guy Chapman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:34:04 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKelly_Martin&diff=40345913&oldid=40338206
>
> Oh, one more thing: the fact that Kelly found it
> necessary to take
> that action shows just how poisonous the whole issue
> is.  Right to
> wrong (and I make no judgment on that) the simple
> fact that the
> exchange took place is an indictment of the
> corrosive nature of the
> problem.
>
> Guy
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
>
> "To every complex problem there is a solution which
> is
> simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken
>
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:48:59 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

> Admins simply enjoy blocking
>others due to whatever reason they mention.

You might want to rephrase that in more neutral terms.  Some if us are
admins.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Sean Barrett-2
In reply to this post by STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA stated for the record:

> Is this also a part of Jimbo's work? Someone was
> blocked for 24-hours for keeping their userboxes on
> ther userpage. Have a look:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKelly_Martin&diff=40345913&oldid=40338206

Your statement of why he was blocked is incorrect, as anyone actually
reading the diff can see.

- --
 Sean Barrett     | Karaoke bars combine two of the nation's
 [hidden email] | greatest evils: people who shouldn't
                  | drink with people who shouldn't sing.
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Kelly Martin-3
In reply to this post by STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
On 2/19/06, STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is this also a part of Jimbo's work? Someone was
> blocked for 24-hours for keeping their userboxes on
> ther userpage. Have a look:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKelly_Martin&diff=40345913&oldid=40338206
>
> --- Guy Chapman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Uh, dear, I blocked him because he is currently disrupting Wikipedia
and he has declared his intent to continue disrupting Wikipedia.  I
haven't even looked at his user page; the words on my talk page were
enough to establish that his intent is contrary to the best interests
of the encyclopedia.

Kelly
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

geni
On 2/19/06, Kelly Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Uh, dear, I blocked him because he is currently disrupting Wikipedia
> and he has declared his intent to continue disrupting Wikipedia.  I
> haven't even looked at his user page; the words on my talk page were
> enough to establish that his intent is contrary to the best interests
> of the encyclopedia.
>
> Kelly

1 user page is not wikipedia. Incerdentaly you missed his use of
[[Image:CA-NDP-2004-Logo.png]].
--
geni
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Kurt Maxwell Weber
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Sunday 19 February 2006 17:42, Guy Chapman wrote:
> Oh, one more thing: the fact that Kelly found it necessary to take
> that action shows just how poisonous the whole issue is.  Right to
> wrong (and I make no judgment on that) the simple fact that the
> exchange took place is an indictment of the corrosive nature of the
> problem.
>

Many (myself included) would argue that the problem doesn't exist because of
the userboxes, but because of certain individuals with a corncob up their
respective asses who have decided that they don't like userboxes, and thus
the proper solution is for those individuals to change their behavior rather
than do anything with userboxes themselves.

--
Kurt Weber
<[hidden email]>
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
"STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote


> If you have something to say to me, just do so. Don't
> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.

Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't be reading any more of
your mails.

Charles


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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Phil Boswell
In reply to this post by Angela-5
"Angela" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
> On 2/20/06, Tony Sidaway <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Does anybody know how to killfile a thread in gmail?
>
> You can use gmail filters to do this, though you can only have 20 of them:
> https://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6579&query=filter&topic=0&type=f

They've silently upped the limit (again :-) because I just counted mine and
I have over 30.

Does anybody need a gmail account? I have 100 invites sitting waiting :-)

HTH HAND
--
Phil
[[en:User:Phil Boswell]]



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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Fred Bauder
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
I'm starting to skip your stuff too. You need to become familiar with  
Wikipedia and adopt an attitude of cooperative problem solving to  
participate effectively.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:56 AM, charles matthews wrote:

> "STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote
>
>
>
>> If you have something to say to me, just do so. Don't
>> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.
>>
>
> Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't be reading any  
> more of
> your mails.
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
If you want to 'skip' someone, just do it. There's no
need to hold an announcement about it, just to try to
embarrass them. In fact, I find it a bit childish. I'm
not clueless about Wiki. I said that Jimbo should
first decide on what he wants, then put it into
action. Look at the mess he created. This conflict is
old and is still going.

Kelly blocked a guy for disruption; and the disruption
was when the guy said he would keep his userboxes
because he didn't find the term "inflammatory", used
by Jimbo, explicative enough. I checked his userpage
and I found nothing in disorder. Neither his message,
nor his userpage, violated anything, yet he was
blocked. Maybe you veterans could explain that to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D

--- Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm starting to skip your stuff too. You need to
> become familiar with  
> Wikipedia and adopt an attitude of cooperative
> problem solving to  
> participate effectively.
>
> Fred
>
> On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:56 AM, charles matthews wrote:
>
> > "STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote
> >
> >
> >
> >> If you have something to say to me, just do so.
> Don't
> >> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.
> >>
> >
> > Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't
> be reading any  
> > more of
> > your mails.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Death Phoenix
While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're saying
it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are only
allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an end:
admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would have
nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all userboxes
are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.

I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know what
the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to point
to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this whole
mess.

I think Jimbo came pretty close to expressing his wishes with the Template
CSD, but there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
and more official statement on Wikipedia.

On 2/20/06, STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> If you want to 'skip' someone, just do it. There's no
> need to hold an announcement about it, just to try to
> embarrass them. In fact, I find it a bit childish. I'm
> not clueless about Wiki. I said that Jimbo should
> first decide on what he wants, then put it into
> action. Look at the mess he created. This conflict is
> old and is still going.
>
> Kelly blocked a guy for disruption; and the disruption
> was when the guy said he would keep his userboxes
> because he didn't find the term "inflammatory", used
> by Jimbo, explicative enough. I checked his userpage
> and I found nothing in disorder. Neither his message,
> nor his userpage, violated anything, yet he was
> blocked. Maybe you veterans could explain that to me.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D
>
> --- Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'm starting to skip your stuff too. You need to
> > become familiar with
> > Wikipedia and adopt an attitude of cooperative
> > problem solving to
> > participate effectively.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:56 AM, charles matthews wrote:
> >
> > > "STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA" wrote
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> If you have something to say to me, just do so.
> > Don't
> > >> try to provoke me with these pitty insults.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Fine.. You're clueless about Wikipedia and I won't
> > be reading any
> > > more of
> > > your mails.
> > >
> > > Charles
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > >
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Charles Matthews
 "Death Phoenix"  wrote

> ... there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
> and more official statement on Wikipedia.

These discussions and evolutions are lengthy, for good reasons.  We operate
by consensus, not by unanimity, for one thing.

For another thing, the 'community' aspects of WP are the face we show
ourselves.  The face turned towards the outside world -  basically the
servers, software development and legal aspects - can throw up problems that
are much more pressing.

The only reason I can see that the boxen are possibly a 'defining issue', in
some people's minds, is that there is always likely to be a defining issue.
The way this has come up seems to me to be largely 'contingent'.  I'd be
surprised if Jimbo thought otherwise, that this was somehow a growing pain
that it was necessary for us to experience.  It does feel as if after five
years the learning curve of how we live together suddenly has become that
much steeper.  But it is nothing that the external critics have ever raised.
Due caution in coming to judgement on it seems entirely understandable.

Charles


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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Ben Emmel
In reply to this post by Death Phoenix
On 2/20/06, Death Phoenix <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're saying
> it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
> said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are only
> allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an
> end:
> admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would
> have
> nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all
> userboxes
> are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
> admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.
>
> I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know what
> the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to
> point
> to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this
> whole
> mess.
>
> I think Jimbo came pretty close to expressing his wishes with the Template
> CSD, but there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
> and more official statement on Wikipedia.
>

I think that this is becoming the only viable solution. However, the
userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!", and
hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo. Just today did I see a userbox comparing
him to something out of 1984. In short, they deny everything that Jimbo does
for the good of Wikipedia.

These users greatly lose fact of basic Wikipedia principles: that we are
here to build an encyclopedia, that you don't have a right to edit, and
don't have an automatic right to "free speech". Truly, we have a sort of
Wiki-"generation gap." I don't see an end to these issues any time soon.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Death Phoenix
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
On 2/20/06, charles matthews <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> "Death Phoenix"  wrote
>
> > ... there will likely come a time when we need him to make a stronger
> > and more official statement on Wikipedia.
>
> These discussions and evolutions are lengthy, for good reasons.  We
> operate
> by consensus, not by unanimity, for one thing.
>
> For another thing, the 'community' aspects of WP are the face we show
> ourselves.  The face turned towards the outside world -  basically the
> servers, software development and legal aspects - can throw up problems
> that
> are much more pressing.
>
> The only reason I can see that the boxen are possibly a 'defining issue',
> in
> some people's minds, is that there is always likely to be a defining
> issue.
> The way this has come up seems to me to be largely 'contingent'.  I'd be
> surprised if Jimbo thought otherwise, that this was somehow a growing pain
> that it was necessary for us to experience.  It does feel as if after five
> years the learning curve of how we live together suddenly has become that
> much steeper.  But it is nothing that the external critics have ever
> raised.
> Due caution in coming to judgement on it seems entirely understandable.
>

Of  course we operate by consensus. I'd have it no other way. However, even
assuming that we reach consensus after months of discussion, it will likely
take no less than a direct statement from Jimbo to stop any further feudin'
and fussin'. There will always be people on the extreme ends of the userbox
arguments, and those folks are very unlikely to change their minds
regardless of any consensus. How they act (and how we respond) depends on
how much "muscle" is behind any userbox decrees. I'd argue that there is
nothing more "muscular" than a decree by Jimbo.

Uh-oh. We're going to see a photoshopped picture of Jimbo on Arnold's body
in [[User:Jimbo Wales/Funny pictures]], aren't we?
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

John Lee-5
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
Ben Emmel wrote:

>I think that this is becoming the only viable solution. However, the
>userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!", and
>hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo. Just today did I see a userbox comparing
>him to something out of 1984. In short, they deny everything that Jimbo does
>for the good of Wikipedia.
>
>These users greatly lose fact of basic Wikipedia principles: that we are
>here to build an encyclopedia, that you don't have a right to edit, and
>don't have an automatic right to "free speech". Truly, we have a sort of
>Wiki-"generation gap." I don't see an end to these issues any time soon.
>  
>
Certainly not when we have former admins proposing the oustre of Jimbo
([[User:Karmafist/manifesto]]) and his replacement with an "elected
executive" whose powers would be limited to managing the servers and
basically all the crap Jimbo does now, minus any involvement with
Wikipedia. The newbie disconnect is growing, and people who should know
better are exacerbating it.

John
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
"Ben Emmel" wrote

>.However, the
> userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!",
> and
> hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo.

There is no cabal <yawn>.  But I've seen nothing more likely to create one
<shrug>.  Us-and-themifying admin actions, in particular.

Charles



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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Kirill Lokshin
In reply to this post by John Lee-5
On 2/20/06, John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ben Emmel wrote:
>
> >I think that this is becoming the only viable solution. However, the
> >userboxen supporters are also the loudest in shouting "Cabal, Cabal!!", and
> >hearkening for the ruin of Jimbo. Just today did I see a userbox comparing
> >him to something out of 1984. In short, they deny everything that Jimbo does
> >for the good of Wikipedia.
> >
> >These users greatly lose fact of basic Wikipedia principles: that we are
> >here to build an encyclopedia, that you don't have a right to edit, and
> >don't have an automatic right to "free speech". Truly, we have a sort of
> >Wiki-"generation gap." I don't see an end to these issues any time soon.
> >
> >
> Certainly not when we have former admins proposing the oustre of Jimbo
> ([[User:Karmafist/manifesto]]) and his replacement with an "elected
> executive" whose powers would be limited to managing the servers and
> basically all the crap Jimbo does now, minus any involvement with
> Wikipedia. The newbie disconnect is growing, and people who should know
> better are exacerbating it.

There seems to have been a rash of those in the past few days -
[[User:The Ungovernable Force/manifesto]] is even more extreme -
combined with a number of "Userbox Insurgency"-type userboxes.  The
issue seems to have become less a question of the userboxes themselves
and more one of "sticking it to The Man" (in this case, Jimbo).

Kirill Lokshin
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Steve Bennett-4
In reply to this post by Death Phoenix
On 2/20/06, Death Phoenix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're saying
> it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
> said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are only
> allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an end:
> admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would have
> nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all userboxes
> are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
> admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.
>
> I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know what
> the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to point
> to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this whole
> mess.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that this situation will get
worse without a decree from above. And it's not as if there is some
obvious consensus about what to do. Any strong decision handed down is
likely to have a fair number of people in disagreement.

Steve
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Death Phoenix
On 2/20/06, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/20/06, Death Phoenix <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > While I don't agree with everything you're saying or the way you're
> saying
> > it, you make one interesting point: if Jimbo just came right out now and
> > said "You are only allowed to have this sort of userbox, and you are
> only
> > allowed to have x amount of them", this userbox fiasco would come to an
> end:
> > admins can go around deleting them and all the userbox defenders would
> have
> > nothing (concrete) to say about it. Conversely, if Jimbo said "all
> userboxes
> > are fine", the userbox defenders are free to keep their userboxes, the
> > admins will know not to delete anything, and we'll all be fine.
> >
> > I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't know
> what
> > the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> > userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning to
> point
> > to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about this
> whole
> > mess.
>
> I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that this situation will get
> worse without a decree from above. And it's not as if there is some
> obvious consensus about what to do. Any strong decision handed down is
> likely to have a fair number of people in disagreement.


Yes, but even with disagreement, such a decree would have the authority
behind it. A great many people disagreed with Jimbo's actions in the
pedophile userbox wheel war, but his actions still carried the weight of his
ultimate authority of Wikipedia. Regardless of whether people agreed with
his actions or sentiment, the matter was dealt with very quickly.
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by Philip Welch
Philip Welch wrote:
> I think his argument, (and if it isn't, it's possibly a stronger  
> argument), is that it's not up to certain un-named admins to delete  
> userboxes on Jimbo's behalf, based only on their interpretation of  
> Jimbo's statements on the issue, because if Jimbo really wanted  
> userboxes to go he'd say so.

I want people to ask slowly and thoughtfully with deep respect for
others, even others with whom they disagree.  As far as I can tell,
there is a strong consensus that having various sorts of advocacy
userboxes is problematic, especially when they are promoted in the
Wikipedia namespace as if they are a normal and proper part of Wikipedia
culture.  The question is: how do we transition to a better state of
affairs while respecting people's legitimate concerns about
individuality and so on?

I think it is somewhat problematic to have users pasting bits of cruft
on their userpage which make them seem to be engaged in Wikipedia as
activists for a particular POV.  I think users should realize that
having that sort of cruft on their userpage will quite rightly diminish
other people's respect for you and your work.  But, whatever, if people
want to do it, I see no reason to get absolutely draconian about it.

However.

The current situation with these things being in the main Template
namespace, and promoted as if healthy and normal in the Wikipedia
namespace, is that they are damaging to our culture.  They are
attracting the wrong sort of people, and giving newcomers the wrong idea
of what it means to be a Wikipedian.

That's why they need to go.  Not to censor people's self-expression, but
to make it clear that _as a whole_ the community considers these things
to be divisive and inappropriate.

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