Jimbo and his strategy

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Jimmy Wales
STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
> Either that, or listen to the voice of
> the community. If he does that, he would probably have
> to keep the userboxes.

I think if I listen to the voice of the community, I do exactly what I
am doing.  The community overwhelmingly agrees that these things are a
problem, and there is not yet clear consensus on what to do about it.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
> That's the main argument. The other argument is that
> Jimbo is using proxies to do his work, which would
> otherwise make him a target of criticism. Not that he
> isn't a target already, but it seems he wants to
> redirect the criticism onto others.

You have a very very very strange view of the world, my friend.

--Jimbo


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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Bugzilla from jessw@netwood.net
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
I suspect this may be a good time to mention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild/Projects/Userboxes/Policy
again.

AFIK, this proposal seems to offer sensible concessions to both
"sides", and to be feasible, and, so far, has gathered considerable
support.  I'd urge everyone to look it over, add add your comments.

Jesse Weinstein

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Michelle Kinney
Interesting.  That seems like a very reasonable compromise.

Jareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jareth)

Jesse W wrote:

>I suspect this may be a good time to mention
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild/Projects/Userboxes/Policy
>again.
>
>AFIK, this proposal seems to offer sensible concessions to both
>"sides", and to be feasible, and, so far, has gathered considerable
>support.  I'd urge everyone to look it over, add add your comments.
>
>Jesse Weinstein
>
>_______________________________________________
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>[hidden email]
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>
>
>
>  
>
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Jimmy Wales
In reply to this post by Death Phoenix
Death Phoenix wrote:
> Yes, but even with disagreement, such a decree would have the authority
> behind it. A great many people disagreed with Jimbo's actions in the
> pedophile userbox wheel war, but his actions still carried the weight of his
> ultimate authority of Wikipedia. Regardless of whether people agreed with
> his actions or sentiment, the matter was dealt with very quickly.

Who disagreed with my actions?  I know there was some quite justified
quibbling on minor points, but the *temporary* and yet *swift* action to
put a stop to what was a very bad situation, and to make it clear to
people that we should stop and discuss this whole thing rather than
having manic wheel wars about it, is as far as I know near universally
supported.

Some people say I act with too much power, some say I need to act with
more.  Old timers will tell you that this is normal.  I act slowly and
as little as possible, trying hard to push people on all sides to
recognize that among those of us who are here to build the greatest
encyclopedia in history and give it away for free, we can always find a
peaceful way to move forward in harmony.  Noisy harmony *g* but harmony.

--Jimbo

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

geni
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
On 2/20/06, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I want people to ask slowly and thoughtfully with deep respect for
> others, even others with whom they disagree.  As far as I can tell,
> there is a strong consensus that having various sorts of advocacy
> userboxes is problematic, especially when they are promoted in the
> Wikipedia namespace as if they are a normal and proper part of Wikipedia
> culture.

No there isn't. More correctly no one seems to be sure how to define
advocacy exactly so any possible consensus would be a moot point


> I think it is somewhat problematic to have users pasting bits of cruft
> on their userpage which make them seem to be engaged in Wikipedia as
> activists for a particular POV.  I think users should realize that
> having that sort of cruft on their userpage will quite rightly diminish
> other people's respect for you and your work.  But, whatever, if people
> want to do it, I see no reason to get absolutely draconian about it.
>

It someone admits a POV it makes it much harder for them to push that
POV. I fail to see a problem with this

> However.
>
> The current situation with these things being in the main Template
> namespace, and promoted as if healthy and normal in the Wikipedia
> namespace, is that they are damaging to our culture.  They are
> attracting the wrong sort of people, and giving newcomers the wrong idea
> of what it means to be a Wikipedian.
>

I haven't really seen it. Most of the problem users I've run into
lately are the same type I was running into over a year ago. Most new
users settle down and edit quietly away. There will always be a few
who cause problems.


> That's why they need to go.  Not to censor people's self-expression, but
> to make it clear that _as a whole_ the community considers these things
> to be divisive and inappropriate.
>


The community doesn't. Bits of it do but at the last count bits of the
community considered the following to be divisive and inappropriate:

Userboxes
Deleting user boxes
IRC
You
Me
[[Brian Peppers]]
[[Image:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad drawings.jpg]]
[[WP:CVU]]

I think getting rid of that lot would be a mistake
--
geni
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Tony Sidaway-3
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from jessw@netwood.net
On 2/20/06, Jesse W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I suspect this may be a good time to mention
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild/Projects/Userboxes/Policy
> again.
>
> AFIK, this proposal seems to offer sensible concessions to both
> "sides", and to be feasible, and, so far, has gathered considerable
> support.  I'd urge everyone to look it over, add add your comments.
>

My name is Tony Sidaway and I agree with this message.
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Fred Bauder
In reply to this post by Death Phoenix
I think he knows that the right solution is for the community to  
arrive at a policy by the process of consensus. That requires  
effective participation in policy making at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Proposed_policy_on_userboxes

and other appropriate places.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 8:20 AM, Death Phoenix wrote:

> I'm sure that part of the reason he hasn't is because he doesn't  
> know what
> the right solution is, but the longer he waits, the longer this whole
> userbox fiasco's going to play out. But signs are really beginning  
> to point
> to the fact that Jimbo will need to make an official decree about  
> this whole
> mess.
>
> I think Jimbo came pretty close to expressing his wishes with the  
> Template
> CSD, but there will likely come a time when we need him to make a  
> stronger
> and more official statement on Wikipedia.

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Fred Bauder
In reply to this post by Death Phoenix
There was a time in the history of the Roman Empire when the Republic  
was replaced by the Empire and rule by force rather than by consent  
began. It was all downhill from then on. Wikipedia would take a  
pitifully long time to fail.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 9:02 AM, Death Phoenix wrote:

> Of  course we operate by consensus. I'd have it no other way.  
> However, even
> assuming that we reach consensus after months of discussion, it  
> will likely
> take no less than a direct statement from Jimbo to stop any further  
> feudin'
> and fussin'. There will always be people on the extreme ends of the  
> userbox
> arguments, and those folks are very unlikely to change their minds
> regardless of any consensus. How they act (and how we respond)  
> depends on
> how much "muscle" is behind any userbox decrees. I'd argue that  
> there is
> nothing more "muscular" than a decree by Jimbo.

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Fred Bauder
In reply to this post by John Lee-5
A leader cannot be replaced by someone who is not a leader, who most  
of us don't respect but see as a troublemaker.

Fred

On Feb 20, 2006, at 9:03 AM, John Lee wrote:

> Certainly not when we have former admins proposing the oustre of Jimbo
> ([[User:Karmafist/manifesto]]) and his replacement with an "elected
> executive" whose powers would be limited to managing the servers and
> basically all the crap Jimbo does now, minus any involvement with
> Wikipedia. The newbie disconnect is growing, and people who should  
> know
> better are exacerbating it.
>
> John

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Death Phoenix
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
On 2/20/06, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Death Phoenix wrote:
> > Yes, but even with disagreement, such a decree would have the authority
> > behind it. A great many people disagreed with Jimbo's actions in the
> > pedophile userbox wheel war, but his actions still carried the weight of
> his
> > ultimate authority of Wikipedia. Regardless of whether people agreed
> with
> > his actions or sentiment, the matter was dealt with very quickly.
>
> Who disagreed with my actions?  I know there was some quite justified
> quibbling on minor points, but the *temporary* and yet *swift* action to
> put a stop to what was a very bad situation, and to make it clear to
> people that we should stop and discuss this whole thing rather than
> having manic wheel wars about it, is as far as I know near universally
> supported.
>
> Some people say I act with too much power, some say I need to act with
> more.  Old timers will tell you that this is normal.  I act slowly and
> as little as possible, trying hard to push people on all sides to
> recognize that among those of us who are here to build the greatest
> encyclopedia in history and give it away for free, we can always find a
> peaceful way to move forward in harmony.  Noisy harmony *g* but harmony.


Sorry, Jimbo, I meant that the matter was dealt with quickly AFTER you
performed your actions. As for the people who disagreed with your actions, I
remember there being many people complaining long and loud about it. My
point was, regardless of this, things were dealt with quickly. Overall, I
approved of your actions (I think I probably approved a little too
vigorously on a few talk pages) and I think I'm one of the folks who was
hoping for QUICKER action ;-). You don't exercise your authority often, but
it is there for you to use if needed. My point is that I think you'll need
to exercise it again in the future w.r.t. the userbox issue.
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
I agree with you, Jim. Let's discuss things first, and
then see where it goes. Maybe we'll find better
solutions to the problem. But while we discuss things,
could you please tell your admins to stop removing the
userboxes and to stop blocking people for keeping
their userboxes, and for discussing things? Because if
they remove the userboxes, then there's little point
in discussing the issue. And I'm not referring to the
so-called "inflammatory" userboxes.

--- Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Death Phoenix wrote:
> > Yes, but even with disagreement, such a decree
> would have the authority
> > behind it. A great many people disagreed with
> Jimbo's actions in the
> > pedophile userbox wheel war, but his actions still
> carried the weight of his
> > ultimate authority of Wikipedia. Regardless of
> whether people agreed with
> > his actions or sentiment, the matter was dealt
> with very quickly.
>
> Who disagreed with my actions?  I know there was
> some quite justified
> quibbling on minor points, but the *temporary* and
> yet *swift* action to
> put a stop to what was a very bad situation, and to
> make it clear to
> people that we should stop and discuss this whole
> thing rather than
> having manic wheel wars about it, is as far as I
> know near universally
> supported.
>
> Some people say I act with too much power, some say
> I need to act with
> more.  Old timers will tell you that this is normal.
>  I act slowly and
> as little as possible, trying hard to push people on
> all sides to
> recognize that among those of us who are here to
> build the greatest
> encyclopedia in history and give it away for free,
> we can always find a
> peaceful way to move forward in harmony.  Noisy
> harmony *g* but harmony.
>
> --Jimbo
>
> --
>
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> and  Free Knowledge #
> #    http://www.wikipedia.org     |     Building a
> free world         #
>
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>


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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Jimmy Wales
Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Some people say I act with too much power, some say I need to act with
>more.  Old timers will tell you that this is normal.  I act slowly and
>as little as possible, trying hard to push people on all sides to
>recognize that among those of us who are here to build the greatest
>encyclopedia in history and give it away for free, we can always find a
>peaceful way to move forward in harmony.  Noisy harmony *g* but harmony.
>
Noisy harmony can often be like a brass band that has more brass than
band. :-)

Ec

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

John Lee-5
In reply to this post by STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:

>I agree with you, Jim. Let's discuss things first, and
>then see where it goes. Maybe we'll find better
>solutions to the problem. But while we discuss things,
>could you please tell your admins to stop removing the
>userboxes and to stop blocking people for keeping
>their userboxes, and for discussing things? Because if
>they remove the userboxes, then there's little point
>in discussing the issue. And I'm not referring to the
>so-called "inflammatory" userboxes.
>  
>
Without examples, this isn't going to go anywhere. It's not like Jimbo
knows which of his 800+ admins have been doing this. (If you're not
referring to polemical userboxes, even I don't know.)

John
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA


--- John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

> STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
>
> >I agree with you, Jim. Let's discuss things first,
> and
> >then see where it goes. Maybe we'll find better
> >solutions to the problem. But while we discuss
> things,
> >could you please tell your admins to stop removing
> the
> >userboxes and to stop blocking people for keeping
> >their userboxes, and for discussing things? Because
> if
> >they remove the userboxes, then there's little
> point
> >in discussing the issue. And I'm not referring to
> the
> >so-called "inflammatory" userboxes.
> >  
> >
> Without examples, this isn't going to go anywhere.
> It's not like Jimbo
> knows which of his 800+ admins have been doing this.
> (If you're not
> referring to polemical userboxes, even I don't
> know.)

I think that Kelly Martin deleted a userbox that said:
"This user supports the reunification of [[Romania]]
and [[Moldova]]." People had to re-add the userbox by
themselves. As for those who have been blocked, see
this discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D

That guy was blocked for 24-hours for disruption. What
disruption is that, I ask myself? I see no disruption.

>
> John
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

John Lee-5
STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:

>--- John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I agree with you, Jim. Let's discuss things first,
>>>      
>>>
>>and
>>    
>>
>>>then see where it goes. Maybe we'll find better
>>>solutions to the problem. But while we discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>things,
>>    
>>
>>>could you please tell your admins to stop removing
>>>      
>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>userboxes and to stop blocking people for keeping
>>>their userboxes, and for discussing things? Because
>>>      
>>>
>>if
>>    
>>
>>>they remove the userboxes, then there's little
>>>      
>>>
>>point
>>    
>>
>>>in discussing the issue. And I'm not referring to
>>>      
>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>so-called "inflammatory" userboxes.
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Without examples, this isn't going to go anywhere.
>>It's not like Jimbo
>>knows which of his 800+ admins have been doing this.
>>(If you're not
>>referring to polemical userboxes, even I don't
>>know.)
>>    
>>
>
>I think that Kelly Martin deleted a userbox that said:
>"This user supports the reunification of [[Romania]]
>and [[Moldova]]." People had to re-add the userbox by
>themselves.
>
That is a polemical userbox (at least, that's what is argued by a number
of admins; I don't count myself as one of them, but I don't care whether
these userboxes stay or go).

> As for those who have been blocked, see
>this discussion:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D
>
>That guy was blocked for 24-hours for disruption. What
>disruption is that, I ask myself? I see no disruption.
>  
>
Ask Kelly. Don't go behind her back to the mailing list. If she blocks
you too, then come here.

John
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:09:12 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>If you want to 'skip' someone, just do it. There's no
>need to hold an announcement about it, just to try to
>embarrass them

You've missed the point.  On usenet you silently plonk trolls because
it's attention they crave.  On Wikipedia you let people know they are
not doing themselves any favours, because you want people to
contribute and be productive members of the community.  The longer I
am around Wikipedia the more I find myself discarding replies
unsubmitted, because escalation is not the way to go.
Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Steve Bennett-4
On 2/21/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You've missed the point.  On usenet you silently plonk trolls because

You know that "silently plonk" is a perfect oxymoron. Silently killfile perhaps.

Steve
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA
In reply to this post by John Lee-5


--- John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

> STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
>
> >--- John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>STEFAN CLAUDIU TIULEA wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>I agree with you, Jim. Let's discuss things
> first,
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>and
> >>    
> >>
> >>>then see where it goes. Maybe we'll find better
> >>>solutions to the problem. But while we discuss
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>things,
> >>    
> >>
> >>>could you please tell your admins to stop
> removing
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>the
> >>    
> >>
> >>>userboxes and to stop blocking people for keeping
> >>>their userboxes, and for discussing things?
> Because
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>if
> >>    
> >>
> >>>they remove the userboxes, then there's little
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>point
> >>    
> >>
> >>>in discussing the issue. And I'm not referring to
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>the
> >>    
> >>
> >>>so-called "inflammatory" userboxes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>Without examples, this isn't going to go anywhere.
> >>It's not like Jimbo
> >>knows which of his 800+ admins have been doing
> this.
> >>(If you're not
> >>referring to polemical userboxes, even I don't
> >>know.)
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I think that Kelly Martin deleted a userbox that
> said:
> >"This user supports the reunification of
> [[Romania]]
> >and [[Moldova]]." People had to re-add the userbox
> by
> >themselves.
> >
> That is a polemical userbox (at least, that's what
> is argued by a number
> of admins; I don't count myself as one of them, but
> I don't care whether
> these userboxes stay or go).
>
> > As for those who have been blocked, see
> >this discussion:
> >
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kelly_Martin#.E2.80.9CInflammatory.E2.80.9D
> >
> >That guy was blocked for 24-hours for disruption.
> What
> >disruption is that, I ask myself? I see no
> disruption.
> >  
> >
> Ask Kelly. Don't go behind her back to the mailing
> list. If she blocks
> you too, then come here.

I did ask her on her talkpage. Others have also asked
her. She didn't reply there; instead, she replied
here, saying the same thing: that he was being
disruptive.

>
> John
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Re: Jimbo and his strategy

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-4
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:28:12 +0100, you wrote:

>> You've missed the point.  On usenet you silently plonk trolls because
>You know that "silently plonk" is a perfect oxymoron. Silently killfile perhaps.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.  *I* can hear the plonk as they land in
the bitbucket, but *they* can't ;-)
Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

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