King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

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King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
Deception has a long and distinguished history.  Mimicry and
camouflage are common in the animal world among predators and prey
alike - to hide, to pretend to be dangerous, to lure prey into a false
sense of security, etc.

Batesian mimicry occurs when two or more species are similar in
appearance, but only one has the trait (e.g. being poisonous) being
signaled.  Coral snakes have alternating stripes of red, yellow and
black.  So do king snakes and milk snakes.  However, coral snakes are
poisonous, but king snakes and milk snakes aren't.  The plain tiger
butterfly is poisonous, containing alkaloids that make predators
vomit.  They also fake death when attack, oozing nauseating liquid,
enabling them to often survive such attacks.  The palatable indian
frittillary females and danaid eggfly females look much like plain
tiger butterflies.  Alligator snapping turtles have tongues which look
like worms; if a fish tries to eat such a tongue, the fish is eaten
instead.

Muellerian mimicry is the same thing, except that the two species do
in fact share the trait being signaled.  Monarch butterflies and
viceroy butterflies look much alike, and both taste bad to predators.
Poison arrow frogs and Mantella frogs tend to have bright coloured
spots against a black background, and they are all poisonous.

Self-mimicry is where one body part imitates another.  Prey can use
this to increase chances of survival if attacked, and predators can
use it to lure prey into a false sense of security.  Owl butterflies
have spots on their wings which looks like eyes.  They are more likely
to survive an attack on their wings than an attack on the main part of
their body.  Pygmy owls have false eyes in the back of their heads to
fool predators into thinking they are seen.  The two-headed snake of
central Africa has a head which looks like a tail and a tail which
looks like a head, fooling prey into believing the attack will come
from the tail rather than the head.

Camouflage involves imitating the appearance of the environment to
avoid being seen by predators or prey.  Katydids look like leaves or
sometimes sticks.  Countershading involves a light underside and a
dark top, to counterbalance normal shadowing, and is employed by grey
reef sharks and pronghorn antelope.

Deception is not some barbaric human invention - it is ingrained in
use by evolution for a reason - because we need it, to survive.
Deception is often as natural as breathing, and we lie not only to
others, but to ourselves.  Honesty often requires actual effort.

Notice a number of the examples above involve colour, which is not a
hard signal to fake, making such signals conventional signals.
Basically, it is much like signaling that you are strong by wearing a
'Weight lifter' t-shirt - not hard to fake, and if too many do fake
it, the signal may become worthless.

According to the handicap principle, a signal may be difficult to fake
if producing it requires the trait being signaled.  Having muscles
tends to require being strong, hence having big muscles is an
assessment signal for being strong.  Moose have large antlers, which
requires strong bodies to support, hence antlers are an assessment
signal for strength.

The following questionnaire is helpful:
1.  What is the cost of sending the signal if honest?
2.  What is the cost of sending the signal if deceiving?
3.  What are the advantages to the deceiver?
4.  Statistically, how reliable is the signal?  (May require experimentation.)
5.  What is the cost of observing the signal?
6.  What is the cost of being deceived?

If the cost of sending the signal if deceiving is significantly
higher than the cost of sending it if honest, and the advantages
to the deceiver are not too great, it should generally be
fairly reliable.  However, the cost of observing the signal relative to the
cost of being deceived and the reliability of the signal itself is
important to deciding whether to bother.

References

* 'The Arts of Deception: Mimicry and Camouflage'.
http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0306.htm
* Zahavi, Amotz.  'The fallacy of conventional signaling'.  1993.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0962-8436%2819930529%29340%3A1292%3C227%3ATFOCS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
* Donath, Judith S.  'Identity and Deception in the Virtual
Community'.  Communities in Cyberspace.  MIT Media Lab.  1996.
http://smg.media.mit.edu/people/Judith/Identity/IdentityDeception.html

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

NavouWiki
Can this be summarized?

Regards,
Navou

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armed Blowfish
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 9:55 PM
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: [WikiEN-l] King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies:
Honesty and deception

Deception has a long and distinguished history.  Mimicry and
camouflage are common in the animal world among predators and prey
alike - to hide, to pretend to be dangerous, to lure prey into a false
sense of security, etc.

Batesian mimicry occurs when two or more species are similar in
appearance, but only one has the trait (e.g. being poisonous) being
signaled.  Coral snakes have alternating stripes of red, yellow and
black.  So do king snakes and milk snakes.  However, coral snakes are
poisonous, but king snakes and milk snakes aren't.  The plain tiger
butterfly is poisonous, containing alkaloids that make predators
vomit.  They also fake death when attack, oozing nauseating liquid,
enabling them to often survive such attacks.  The palatable indian
frittillary females and danaid eggfly females look much like plain
tiger butterflies.  Alligator snapping turtles have tongues which look
like worms; if a fish tries to eat such a tongue, the fish is eaten
instead.

Muellerian mimicry is the same thing, except that the two species do
in fact share the trait being signaled.  Monarch butterflies and
viceroy butterflies look much alike, and both taste bad to predators.
Poison arrow frogs and Mantella frogs tend to have bright coloured
spots against a black background, and they are all poisonous.

Self-mimicry is where one body part imitates another.  Prey can use
this to increase chances of survival if attacked, and predators can
use it to lure prey into a false sense of security.  Owl butterflies
have spots on their wings which looks like eyes.  They are more likely
to survive an attack on their wings than an attack on the main part of
their body.  Pygmy owls have false eyes in the back of their heads to
fool predators into thinking they are seen.  The two-headed snake of
central Africa has a head which looks like a tail and a tail which
looks like a head, fooling prey into believing the attack will come
from the tail rather than the head.

Camouflage involves imitating the appearance of the environment to
avoid being seen by predators or prey.  Katydids look like leaves or
sometimes sticks.  Countershading involves a light underside and a
dark top, to counterbalance normal shadowing, and is employed by grey
reef sharks and pronghorn antelope.

Deception is not some barbaric human invention - it is ingrained in
use by evolution for a reason - because we need it, to survive.
Deception is often as natural as breathing, and we lie not only to
others, but to ourselves.  Honesty often requires actual effort.

Notice a number of the examples above involve colour, which is not a
hard signal to fake, making such signals conventional signals.
Basically, it is much like signaling that you are strong by wearing a
'Weight lifter' t-shirt - not hard to fake, and if too many do fake
it, the signal may become worthless.

According to the handicap principle, a signal may be difficult to fake
if producing it requires the trait being signaled.  Having muscles
tends to require being strong, hence having big muscles is an
assessment signal for being strong.  Moose have large antlers, which
requires strong bodies to support, hence antlers are an assessment
signal for strength.

The following questionnaire is helpful:
1.  What is the cost of sending the signal if honest?
2.  What is the cost of sending the signal if deceiving?
3.  What are the advantages to the deceiver?
4.  Statistically, how reliable is the signal?  (May require
experimentation.)
5.  What is the cost of observing the signal?
6.  What is the cost of being deceived?

If the cost of sending the signal if deceiving is significantly
higher than the cost of sending it if honest, and the advantages
to the deceiver are not too great, it should generally be
fairly reliable.  However, the cost of observing the signal relative to the
cost of being deceived and the reliability of the signal itself is
important to deciding whether to bother.

References

* 'The Arts of Deception: Mimicry and Camouflage'.
http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0306.htm
* Zahavi, Amotz.  'The fallacy of conventional signaling'.  1993.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0962-8436%2819930529%29340%3A1292%3C227%3AT
FOCS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
* Donath, Judith S.  'Identity and Deception in the Virtual
Community'.  Communities in Cyberspace.  MIT Media Lab.  1996.
http://smg.media.mit.edu/people/Judith/Identity/IdentityDeception.html

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

brock.weller@gmail.com
Agreed. pretty much a Tolstoy.

On 8/27/07, NavouWiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Can this be summarized?
>
> Regards,
> Navou
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armed Blowfish
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 9:55 PM
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies:
> Honesty and deception
>
> Deception has a long and distinguished history.  Mimicry and
> camouflage are common in the animal world among predators and prey
> alike - to hide, to pretend to be dangerous, to lure prey into a false
> sense of security, etc.
>
> Batesian mimicry occurs when two or more species are similar in
> appearance, but only one has the trait (e.g. being poisonous) being
> signaled.  Coral snakes have alternating stripes of red, yellow and
> black.  So do king snakes and milk snakes.  However, coral snakes are
> poisonous, but king snakes and milk snakes aren't.  The plain tiger
> butterfly is poisonous, containing alkaloids that make predators
> vomit.  They also fake death when attack, oozing nauseating liquid,
> enabling them to often survive such attacks.  The palatable indian
> frittillary females and danaid eggfly females look much like plain
> tiger butterflies.  Alligator snapping turtles have tongues which look
> like worms; if a fish tries to eat such a tongue, the fish is eaten
> instead.
>
> Muellerian mimicry is the same thing, except that the two species do
> in fact share the trait being signaled.  Monarch butterflies and
> viceroy butterflies look much alike, and both taste bad to predators.
> Poison arrow frogs and Mantella frogs tend to have bright coloured
> spots against a black background, and they are all poisonous.
>
> Self-mimicry is where one body part imitates another.  Prey can use
> this to increase chances of survival if attacked, and predators can
> use it to lure prey into a false sense of security.  Owl butterflies
> have spots on their wings which looks like eyes.  They are more likely
> to survive an attack on their wings than an attack on the main part of
> their body.  Pygmy owls have false eyes in the back of their heads to
> fool predators into thinking they are seen.  The two-headed snake of
> central Africa has a head which looks like a tail and a tail which
> looks like a head, fooling prey into believing the attack will come
> from the tail rather than the head.
>
> Camouflage involves imitating the appearance of the environment to
> avoid being seen by predators or prey.  Katydids look like leaves or
> sometimes sticks.  Countershading involves a light underside and a
> dark top, to counterbalance normal shadowing, and is employed by grey
> reef sharks and pronghorn antelope.
>
> Deception is not some barbaric human invention - it is ingrained in
> use by evolution for a reason - because we need it, to survive.
> Deception is often as natural as breathing, and we lie not only to
> others, but to ourselves.  Honesty often requires actual effort.
>
> Notice a number of the examples above involve colour, which is not a
> hard signal to fake, making such signals conventional signals.
> Basically, it is much like signaling that you are strong by wearing a
> 'Weight lifter' t-shirt - not hard to fake, and if too many do fake
> it, the signal may become worthless.
>
> According to the handicap principle, a signal may be difficult to fake
> if producing it requires the trait being signaled.  Having muscles
> tends to require being strong, hence having big muscles is an
> assessment signal for being strong.  Moose have large antlers, which
> requires strong bodies to support, hence antlers are an assessment
> signal for strength.
>
> The following questionnaire is helpful:
> 1.  What is the cost of sending the signal if honest?
> 2.  What is the cost of sending the signal if deceiving?
> 3.  What are the advantages to the deceiver?
> 4.  Statistically, how reliable is the signal?  (May require
> experimentation.)
> 5.  What is the cost of observing the signal?
> 6.  What is the cost of being deceived?
>
> If the cost of sending the signal if deceiving is significantly
> higher than the cost of sending it if honest, and the advantages
> to the deceiver are not too great, it should generally be
> fairly reliable.  However, the cost of observing the signal relative to
> the
> cost of being deceived and the reliability of the signal itself is
> important to deciding whether to bother.
>
> References
>
> * 'The Arts of Deception: Mimicry and Camouflage'.
> http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0306.htm
> * Zahavi, Amotz.  'The fallacy of conventional signaling'.  1993.
>
> http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0962-8436%2819930529%29340%3A1292%3C227%3AT
> FOCS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
> * Donath, Judith S.  'Identity and Deception in the Virtual
> Community'.  Communities in Cyberspace.  MIT Media Lab.  1996.
> http://smg.media.mit.edu/people/Judith/Identity/IdentityDeception.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
-Brock
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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

brock.weller@gmail.com
In reply to this post by NavouWiki
Agreed, pretty much a Tolstoy. My original reply quoting it made me hit the
size limit for requiring modded posts. Resubmitted without it, you can
discard the modded one.

On 8/27/07, NavouWiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Can this be summarized?
>
> Regards,
> Navou
>
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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
That is a summary.  And I haven't even started talking about any of
the applications to Wikipaedia....  If you want to, skip the 4
paragraphs on Batesian mimicry, Muellerian mimicry, self-mimicry and
camaflouge.  Those are examples.

On 27/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Agreed, pretty much a Tolstoy. My original reply quoting it made me hit the
> size limit for requiring modded posts. Resubmitted without it, you can
> discard the modded one.
>
> On 8/27/07, NavouWiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Can this be summarized?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Navou
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

brock.weller@gmail.com
Ok, I read through it all, the examples too.

And frankly im lost. Interesting, in that im a nerd and things like this are
interesting to me. But whats the point? Why is this on wiki-en, and not
random-bio-mailinglist?

On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> That is a summary.  And I haven't even started talking about any of
> the applications to Wikipaedia....  If you want to, skip the 4
> paragraphs on Batesian mimicry, Muellerian mimicry, self-mimicry and
> camaflouge.  Those are examples.
>
> On 27/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Agreed, pretty much a Tolstoy. My original reply quoting it made me hit
> the
> > size limit for requiring modded posts. Resubmitted without it, you can
> > discard the modded one.
> >
> > On 8/27/07, NavouWiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Can this be summarized?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Navou
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
-Brock
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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
People keep going on and on about lying, in a variety of
contexts, and the biologists are way ahead of you all.

What context would you prefer to talk about it in?  Sybil attack
(misused sockpuppetry) detection?  Tor?  Random accusations
that people are lying?  Pick one, it's relevant to them all.



On 28/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ok, I read through it all, the examples too.
>
> And frankly im lost. Interesting, in that im a nerd and things like this are
> interesting to me. But whats the point? Why is this on wiki-en, and not
> random-bio-mailinglist?
>
> On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > That is a summary.  And I haven't even started talking about any of
> > the applications to Wikipaedia....  If you want to, skip the 4
> > paragraphs on Batesian mimicry, Muellerian mimicry, self-mimicry and
> > camaflouge.  Those are examples.
> >
> > On 27/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Agreed, pretty much a Tolstoy. My original reply quoting it made me hit
> > the
> > > size limit for requiring modded posts. Resubmitted without it, you can
> > > discard the modded one.
> > >
> > > On 8/27/07, NavouWiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Can this be summarized?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Navou
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -Brock
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Earle Martin
In reply to this post by brock.weller@gmail.com
On 28/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Agreed. pretty much a Tolstoy.

Is this some new use of "Tolstoy" to mean "TL;DR"?



--
Earle Martin
            http://downlode.org/
http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Earle Martin
In reply to this post by brock.weller@gmail.com
On 28/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Agreed, pretty much a Tolstoy. My original reply quoting it made me hit the
> size limit for requiring modded posts. Resubmitted without it, you can
> discard the modded one.

This is perhaps a gentle software-assisted hint why thoughtless
Jeopardy quoting is bad. Please don't do that.


--
Earle Martin
            http://downlode.org/
http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
On 28/08/07, Earle Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 28/08/07, Brock Weller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Agreed, pretty much a Tolstoy. My original reply quoting it made me hit the
> > size limit for requiring modded posts. Resubmitted without it, you can
> > discard the modded one.
>
> This is perhaps a gentle software-assisted hint why thoughtless
> Jeopardy quoting is bad. Please don't do that.

See the references at the bottom of the original post.

> --
> Earle Martin
>             http://downlode.org/
> http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Sean Barrett-3
In reply to this post by Armed Blowfish
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Armed Blowfish wrote:
> Deception has a long and distinguished history.  Mimicry and....


tldr

- --
 Sean Barrett     | The Penguin Credo is not "never
 [hidden email] | bathe in hot oil and Bisquick."
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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5W8THKT5kKnyc/lz+Bpp/P8=
=e6g6
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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
On 28/08/07, Sean Barrett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Armed Blowfish wrote:
> > Deception has a long and distinguished history.  Mimicry and....
>
>
> tldr
>
> - --
>  Sean Barrett     | The Penguin Credo is not "never
>  [hidden email] | bathe in hot oil and Bisquick.

Well, if people are going to go on and on about liars, sockpuppets
and trolls, it helps to have an understanding of the nature of what
exactly they are accusing people of.

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Judson Dunn-2
On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, if people are going to go on and on about liars, sockpuppets
> and trolls, it helps to have an understanding of the nature of what
> exactly they are accusing people of.

Seems reasonable to me, and useful to put things in context. But then
again my background is biology... :) Are you planning on making this
an [[essay]]? I wish you would.

Judson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cohesion

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
On 28/08/07, cohesion <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Well, if people are going to go on and on about liars, sockpuppets
>> and trolls, it helps to have an understanding of the nature of what
>> exactly they are accusing people of.
>
> Seems reasonable to me, and useful to put things in context. But then
> again my background is biology... :) Are you planning on making this
> an [[essay]]? I wish you would.
>
> Judson
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cohesion

Yes, biologists are way ahead of us.

Banned, sorry.  Do you wish me to BSD-licence it?

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

David Gerard-2
On 28/08/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Banned, sorry.  Do you wish me to BSD-licence it?


You got moderated on this list for repeated false claims of being
banned. Tor is blocked, you are not. You are now at the stage where I
think I can reasonably call you a liar each time you repeat this
claim.


- d.

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
On 28/08/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28/08/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Banned, sorry.  Do you wish me to BSD-licence it?
>
>
> You got moderated on this list for repeated false claims of being
> banned. Tor is blocked, you are not. You are now at the stage where I
> think I can reasonably call you a liar each time you repeat this
> claim.
>
>
> - d.

I got moderated for daring to defend my reputation against
accusations of lying, and also for answering a question which
people kept asking me for months on end.  Next time you call
me a liar, please fill out my questionnaire.

The community rejected my unblock request.  If you want
quotes as to which comments sounded particularly like
banning rationales, email me privately, but I'm not actually
interested in guilt-tripping the people who made the
comments.

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Kamryn Matika
On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 28/08/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 28/08/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Banned, sorry.  Do you wish me to BSD-licence it?
> >
> >
> > You got moderated on this list for repeated false claims of being
> > banned. Tor is blocked, you are not. You are now at the stage where I
> > think I can reasonably call you a liar each time you repeat this
> > claim.
> >
> >
> > - d.
>
> I got moderated for daring to defend my reputation against
> accusations of lying, and also for answering a question which
> people kept asking me for months on end.  Next time you call
> me a liar, please fill out my questionnaire.
>
> The community rejected my unblock request.  If you want
> quotes as to which comments sounded particularly like
> banning rationales, email me privately, but I'm not actually
> interested in guilt-tripping the people who made the
> comments.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

Can he be put back on moderation? I am sick of this.
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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

John Reaves
I second that.

--John Reaves


>On 8/28/07, Kamryn Matika <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Can he be put back on moderation? I am sick of this.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
In reply to this post by Kamryn Matika
On 28/08/07, Kamryn Matika <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 28/08/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 28/08/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Banned, sorry.  Do you wish me to BSD-licence it?
> > >
> > >
> > > You got moderated on this list for repeated false claims of being
> > > banned. Tor is blocked, you are not. You are now at the stage where I
> > > think I can reasonably call you a liar each time you repeat this
> > > claim.
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> >
> > I got moderated for daring to defend my reputation against
> > accusations of lying, and also for answering a question which
> > people kept asking me for months on end.  Next time you call
> > me a liar, please fill out my questionnaire.
> >
> > The community rejected my unblock request.  If you want
> > quotes as to which comments sounded particularly like
> > banning rationales, email me privately, but I'm not actually
> > interested in guilt-tripping the people who made the
> > comments.
> >
>
> Can he be put back on moderation? I am sick of this.

Could you stop calling me a liar?  And blank some pages on
Wikipaedia?

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Re: King snakes, milk snakes and viceroy butterflies: Honesty and deception

Armed Blowfish
On 28/08/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28/08/07, Kamryn Matika <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 8/28/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 28/08/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On 28/08/07, Armed Blowfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Banned, sorry.  Do you wish me to BSD-licence it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You got moderated on this list for repeated false claims of being
> > > > banned. Tor is blocked, you are not. You are now at the stage where I
> > > > think I can reasonably call you a liar each time you repeat this
> > > > claim.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - d.
> > >
> > > I got moderated for daring to defend my reputation against
> > > accusations of lying, and also for answering a question which
> > > people kept asking me for months on end.  Next time you call
> > > me a liar, please fill out my questionnaire.
> > >
> > > The community rejected my unblock request.  If you want
> > > quotes as to which comments sounded particularly like
> > > banning rationales, email me privately, but I'm not actually
> > > interested in guilt-tripping the people who made the
> > > comments.
> > >
> >
> > Can he be put back on moderation? I am sick of this.
>
> Could you stop calling me a liar?  And blank some pages on
> Wikipaedia?

Community exile, according to Meatball Wiki, 'The idea is just to
get them to exercise their RightToLeave, no more and no less.'

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?CommunityExile

So, if you want someone to go away, it helps to give that person
the right to vanish.

'You don't want people hanging around solely because they don't
have the ability to vanish - such folks are only around out of the
need to protect their reputation, rather than BarnRaising.'

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?RightToVanish

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