Licensing SMW solutions

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Licensing SMW solutions

fustbariclation
I'm curious to know what experience has been with using SMW commercially.

I see the page of consultancy firms:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Professional_development_and_consulting

No doubt there are various methods used to make money from developments:

- Direct charging for consultancy time
- Requesting donations
- Offering extensions with a commercial license

The method that appeals to me most is the combination of open source
and a commercial license - like Virtualbox that's free for anybody to
use, but, if anybody wants to use the extensions commercially, there
is a license fee.

How well do these various models work in practice?

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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

Krabina Bernhard
Dear Peter,

the method you prefer appeals to me the least. It has happened before - kind of - with SMW+

I prefer the direct charging for consultancy time. The problem with commercially lizensed exentions is always maintenance. And you build on something that is provided for free and add something that is not.

There are some companies I know in Germany who offer "custumized" solutions: Gesinn IT offers "semantic:apps", HalloWelt offers "Blue Spice" and I believe energypedia consult has a similar approach. But as far as I know, they all use several open source components: SMW + a lot of further extensions + a customized skin + some basic configuratios of forms/templates/properties/resultformats that have general use cases. So they offer knowledge on SMW installation/configuration as ready to be used sets of open-source-components, sometimes even as appliances.

I always like the approach that commercial companies feed back developments to the open source world and avoid to build proprietary stuff.

regards,
Bernhard

----- Am 18. Mai 2015 um 20:36 schrieb Peter Brooks [hidden email]:

> I'm curious to know what experience has been with using SMW commercially.
>
> I see the page of consultancy firms:
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Professional_development_and_consulting
>
> No doubt there are various methods used to make money from developments:
>
> - Direct charging for consultancy time
> - Requesting donations
> - Offering extensions with a commercial license
>
> The method that appeals to me most is the combination of open source
> and a commercial license - like Virtualbox that's free for anybody to
> use, but, if anybody wants to use the extensions commercially, there
> is a license fee.
>
> How well do these various models work in practice?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

fustbariclation
Thank you, those are good points, Bernhard.

I agree particularly with feeding developments back to open source.

It's the semantic side that I see particularly interesting. The whole
point of having semantics, or a major one anyway, is to enable a
subject matter expert (SME) to transfer knowledge so that it's more
generally available. SMW goes further in providing a powerful
knowledge management system in which to embed the SME's knowledge,
including working forms and templates.

That is valuable IP. Usually a company would employ an SME as a
consultant, and then treat the result as their own, company, private
IP. So the work doesn't reach the wider world, and the SME is only
paid for the time, not the value.

An SME can publish a book. That makes it available to everybody. It
also means the SME gets paid some royalties. The book is copyright,
so, though anybody can use the ideas, if somebody wanted to sell a
product based on them, permission would have to be sought, probably
granted for a royalty fee.

That seems fair to me.

It would be nice if there were some equivalent in the semantic world.
The SMW is rather like the publisher of the book, it makes the SME's
knowledge available, conveniently, to the wider world.

I suppose that something like kickstart would be an option - a bit
like the SME getting an advance from a publisher.

It's unfortunate, though, that you can't have the equivalent to a book
- anybody can get it out of the library free, for their own
information, but a company would need to pay to exploit the idea -
because, through the book, it's getting the SME's consultancy.


On 19 May 2015 at 21:55, Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Peter,
>
> the method you prefer appeals to me the least. It has happened before - kind of - with SMW+
>
> I prefer the direct charging for consultancy time. The problem with commercially lizensed exentions is always maintenance. And you build on something that is provided for free and add something that is not.
>
> There are some companies I know in Germany who offer "custumized" solutions: Gesinn IT offers "semantic:apps", HalloWelt offers "Blue Spice" and I believe energypedia consult has a similar approach. But as far as I know, they all use several open source components: SMW + a lot of further extensions + a customized skin + some basic configuratios of forms/templates/properties/resultformats that have general use cases. So they offer knowledge on SMW installation/configuration as ready to be used sets of open-source-components, sometimes even as appliances.
>
> I always like the approach that commercial companies feed back developments to the open source world and avoid to build proprietary stuff.
>
> regards,
> Bernhard
>
> ----- Am 18. Mai 2015 um 20:36 schrieb Peter Brooks [hidden email]:
>
>> I'm curious to know what experience has been with using SMW commercially.
>>
>> I see the page of consultancy firms:
>>
>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Professional_development_and_consulting
>>
>> No doubt there are various methods used to make money from developments:
>>
>> - Direct charging for consultancy time
>> - Requesting donations
>> - Offering extensions with a commercial license
>>
>> The method that appeals to me most is the combination of open source
>> and a commercial license - like Virtualbox that's free for anybody to
>> use, but, if anybody wants to use the extensions commercially, there
>> is a license fee.
>>
>> How well do these various models work in practice?
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user



--
Peter Brooks

Tel: +27 21 447 9752
Mobile: +27 82 717 6 404
Twitter: Fustbariclation
Author Page: amazon.com/author/peter_brooks

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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

Krabina Bernhard
oh, now I see your point.

Indeed it is a bit of a weak point that from each public SMW installation, all the semantics can be exported, because attributes,forms,templates,etc are just regular wiki pages which can be exported. The only way to prevent that (afaik) is to make your wiki gernerally private.

The feature that 90% of the SMW related knowledge is stored on regular wiki pages (some in localsettings) is the greatest advantage of SMW, but for your use case it has this drawback.

For this reason it would be nice if mediawiki itself would offer the possibility to configure what namespaces can be exported and viewed, so you could protect the Attribute and Template namespace...

regards,
Bernhard

----- Am 20. Mai 2015 um 7:24 schrieb Peter Brooks [hidden email]:

> Thank you, those are good points, Bernhard.
>
> I agree particularly with feeding developments back to open source.
>
> It's the semantic side that I see particularly interesting. The whole
> point of having semantics, or a major one anyway, is to enable a
> subject matter expert (SME) to transfer knowledge so that it's more
> generally available. SMW goes further in providing a powerful
> knowledge management system in which to embed the SME's knowledge,
> including working forms and templates.
>
> That is valuable IP. Usually a company would employ an SME as a
> consultant, and then treat the result as their own, company, private
> IP. So the work doesn't reach the wider world, and the SME is only
> paid for the time, not the value.
>
> An SME can publish a book. That makes it available to everybody. It
> also means the SME gets paid some royalties. The book is copyright,
> so, though anybody can use the ideas, if somebody wanted to sell a
> product based on them, permission would have to be sought, probably
> granted for a royalty fee.
>
> That seems fair to me.
>
> It would be nice if there were some equivalent in the semantic world.
> The SMW is rather like the publisher of the book, it makes the SME's
> knowledge available, conveniently, to the wider world.
>
> I suppose that something like kickstart would be an option - a bit
> like the SME getting an advance from a publisher.
>
> It's unfortunate, though, that you can't have the equivalent to a book
> - anybody can get it out of the library free, for their own
> information, but a company would need to pay to exploit the idea -
> because, through the book, it's getting the SME's consultancy.
>
>
> On 19 May 2015 at 21:55, Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> the method you prefer appeals to me the least. It has happened before - kind of
>> - with SMW+
>>
>> I prefer the direct charging for consultancy time. The problem with commercially
>> lizensed exentions is always maintenance. And you build on something that is
>> provided for free and add something that is not.
>>
>> There are some companies I know in Germany who offer "custumized" solutions:
>> Gesinn IT offers "semantic:apps", HalloWelt offers "Blue Spice" and I believe
>> energypedia consult has a similar approach. But as far as I know, they all use
>> several open source components: SMW + a lot of further extensions + a
>> customized skin + some basic configuratios of
>> forms/templates/properties/resultformats that have general use cases. So they
>> offer knowledge on SMW installation/configuration as ready to be used sets of
>> open-source-components, sometimes even as appliances.
>>
>> I always like the approach that commercial companies feed back developments to
>> the open source world and avoid to build proprietary stuff.
>>
>> regards,
>> Bernhard
>>
>> ----- Am 18. Mai 2015 um 20:36 schrieb Peter Brooks [hidden email]:
>>
>>> I'm curious to know what experience has been with using SMW commercially.
>>>
>>> I see the page of consultancy firms:
>>>
>>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Professional_development_and_consulting
>>>
>>> No doubt there are various methods used to make money from developments:
>>>
>>> - Direct charging for consultancy time
>>> - Requesting donations
>>> - Offering extensions with a commercial license
>>>
>>> The method that appeals to me most is the combination of open source
>>> and a commercial license - like Virtualbox that's free for anybody to
>>> use, but, if anybody wants to use the extensions commercially, there
>>> is a license fee.
>>>
>>> How well do these various models work in practice?
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>
>
>
> --
> Peter Brooks
>
> Tel: +27 21 447 9752
> Mobile: +27 82 717 6 404
> Twitter: Fustbariclation
> Author Page: amazon.com/author/peter_brooks

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

fustbariclation
It's not really a technical problem.

There's no need for DRM really. If you have something, a book, say,
that's copyright, you can put it on your site as a .pdf file, and get
people to pay to download it. Yes, they can give it to other people
free, but most people don't do that, and, in any case, that's true of
a book.

So, if you have a site that says - this is free for individual use -
but, if you are an organisation that's going to use it commercially,
you need to pay for a license. Then, yes, some companies will just rip
it off - but, if they do, they are breaking the law and an auditor
will find against the company for poor governance.

Most companies are happy to pay for a license to use something,
particularly if it isn't that expensive.

It's OK for everything to be freely downloadable from the wiki - but
it would be good to have a license that says, rather than creative
commons, that they are licensed as above. Then it's just necessary to
set up a site to sell licenses.

What would be good would be for the downloaded copies to show either:

- 'Downloaded under 'Individual use License'

or

- 'Licensed to XXX Company for NNN users'

Actually, thinking about it, it could be quite easy. You just need a
query that discovers if there's a license page, and if that page
matches the domain of the user, or the IP address of the server, and,
if it does, add the 'Licensed to...' message.

Regards,
Peter


On 20 May 2015 at 10:09, Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> oh, now I see your point.
>
> Indeed it is a bit of a weak point that from each public SMW installation, all the semantics can be exported, because attributes,forms,templates,etc are just regular wiki pages which can be exported. The only way to prevent that (afaik) is to make your wiki gernerally private.
>
> The feature that 90% of the SMW related knowledge is stored on regular wiki pages (some in localsettings) is the greatest advantage of SMW, but for your use case it has this drawback.
>
> For this reason it would be nice if mediawiki itself would offer the possibility to configure what namespaces can be exported and viewed, so you could protect the Attribute and Template namespace...
>
> regards,
> Bernhard
>
> ----- Am 20. Mai 2015 um 7:24 schrieb Peter Brooks [hidden email]:
>
>> Thank you, those are good points, Bernhard.
>>
>> I agree particularly with feeding developments back to open source.
>>
>> It's the semantic side that I see particularly interesting. The whole
>> point of having semantics, or a major one anyway, is to enable a
>> subject matter expert (SME) to transfer knowledge so that it's more
>> generally available. SMW goes further in providing a powerful
>> knowledge management system in which to embed the SME's knowledge,
>> including working forms and templates.
>>
>> That is valuable IP. Usually a company would employ an SME as a
>> consultant, and then treat the result as their own, company, private
>> IP. So the work doesn't reach the wider world, and the SME is only
>> paid for the time, not the value.
>>
>> An SME can publish a book. That makes it available to everybody. It
>> also means the SME gets paid some royalties. The book is copyright,
>> so, though anybody can use the ideas, if somebody wanted to sell a
>> product based on them, permission would have to be sought, probably
>> granted for a royalty fee.
>>
>> That seems fair to me.
>>
>> It would be nice if there were some equivalent in the semantic world.
>> The SMW is rather like the publisher of the book, it makes the SME's
>> knowledge available, conveniently, to the wider world.
>>
>> I suppose that something like kickstart would be an option - a bit
>> like the SME getting an advance from a publisher.
>>
>> It's unfortunate, though, that you can't have the equivalent to a book
>> - anybody can get it out of the library free, for their own
>> information, but a company would need to pay to exploit the idea -
>> because, through the book, it's getting the SME's consultancy.
>>
>>
>> On 19 May 2015 at 21:55, Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Dear Peter,
>>>
>>> the method you prefer appeals to me the least. It has happened before - kind of
>>> - with SMW+
>>>
>>> I prefer the direct charging for consultancy time. The problem with commercially
>>> lizensed exentions is always maintenance. And you build on something that is
>>> provided for free and add something that is not.
>>>
>>> There are some companies I know in Germany who offer "custumized" solutions:
>>> Gesinn IT offers "semantic:apps", HalloWelt offers "Blue Spice" and I believe
>>> energypedia consult has a similar approach. But as far as I know, they all use
>>> several open source components: SMW + a lot of further extensions + a
>>> customized skin + some basic configuratios of
>>> forms/templates/properties/resultformats that have general use cases. So they
>>> offer knowledge on SMW installation/configuration as ready to be used sets of
>>> open-source-components, sometimes even as appliances.
>>>
>>> I always like the approach that commercial companies feed back developments to
>>> the open source world and avoid to build proprietary stuff.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Bernhard
>>>
>>> ----- Am 18. Mai 2015 um 20:36 schrieb Peter Brooks [hidden email]:
>>>
>>>> I'm curious to know what experience has been with using SMW commercially.
>>>>
>>>> I see the page of consultancy firms:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Professional_development_and_consulting
>>>>
>>>> No doubt there are various methods used to make money from developments:
>>>>
>>>> - Direct charging for consultancy time
>>>> - Requesting donations
>>>> - Offering extensions with a commercial license
>>>>
>>>> The method that appeals to me most is the combination of open source
>>>> and a commercial license - like Virtualbox that's free for anybody to
>>>> use, but, if anybody wants to use the extensions commercially, there
>>>> is a license fee.
>>>>
>>>> How well do these various models work in practice?
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Peter Brooks
>>
>> Tel: +27 21 447 9752
>> Mobile: +27 82 717 6 404
>> Twitter: Fustbariclation
>> Author Page: amazon.com/author/peter_brooks



--
Peter Brooks

Tel: +27 21 447 9752
Mobile: +27 82 717 6 404
Twitter: Fustbariclation
Author Page: amazon.com/author/peter_brooks

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

planetenxin
In reply to this post by Krabina Bernhard
Bernhard and others,

Am 19.05.2015 um 21:55 schrieb Krabina Bernhard:
> Gesinn IT offers "semantic:apps"

semantic::apps is content we provide (forms, properties, categories,
templates), not software. To get this 'maintainable', we need a clearly
defined stack to run that on. That's what we call 'semantic::core'. It's
a 100% free and open-source enterprise MediaWiki distribution.

We use vagrant/puppet to pull the available sources and to make systems
maintainable. Nothing gesinn.it specific here. That's important to know.
It's our knowledge and experience we're selling.

Our customers typically don't like to figure out how to install the
latest version of VisualEditor or how to setup a stable backup process
for their wiki. We do that for them. But if they like, they get full
root access to the boxes / sources.

/Alexander

--
________________________________________________
semantic::apps by gesinn.it
Business Applications with Semantic Mediawiki.
http://semantic-apps.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

Schneider, Martin
Here I have to ask:
"That's what we call 'semantic::core'. It's a 100% free and open-source enterprise MediaWiki distribution."

When reading this I would say that I can download semantic::core from the web and use it according to the accompanying license.

But this is not the case. There is only a page with pricing information: 3.900 € per installation. This is not what I would call free.
https://www.semantic-apps.com/de/core/%C3%BCberblick

I have to conclude that although the parts of semantic::core seem to be open source, semantic::core itself is not.

Best regards, Martin

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: planetenxin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2015 11:54
An: Krabina Bernhard; Peter Brooks
Cc: semediawiki-user
Betreff: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Licensing SMW solutions

Bernhard and others,

Am 19.05.2015 um 21:55 schrieb Krabina Bernhard:
> Gesinn IT offers "semantic:apps"

semantic::apps is content we provide (forms, properties, categories, templates), not software. To get this 'maintainable', we need a clearly defined stack to run that on. That's what we call 'semantic::core'. It's a 100% free and open-source enterprise MediaWiki distribution.

We use vagrant/puppet to pull the available sources and to make systems maintainable. Nothing gesinn.it specific here. That's important to know.
It's our knowledge and experience we're selling.

Our customers typically don't like to figure out how to install the latest version of VisualEditor or how to setup a stable backup process for their wiki. We do that for them. But if they like, they get full root access to the boxes / sources.

/Alexander

--
________________________________________________
semantic::apps by gesinn.it
Business Applications with Semantic Mediawiki.
http://semantic-apps.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

planetenxin
Martin,

here is everything you need to build semantic::core:

https://github.com/gesinn-it/puppet-mediawiki

Best regards,
Alexander

Am 20.05.2015 um 16:25 schrieb Schneider, Martin:

> Here I have to ask:
> "That's what we call 'semantic::core'. It's a 100% free and open-source enterprise MediaWiki distribution."
>
> When reading this I would say that I can download semantic::core from the web and use it according to the accompanying license.
>
> But this is not the case. There is only a page with pricing information: 3.900 € per installation. This is not what I would call free.
> https://www.semantic-apps.com/de/core/%C3%BCberblick
>
> I have to conclude that although the parts of semantic::core seem to be open source, semantic::core itself is not.
>
> Best regards, Martin


--
________________________________________________
semantic::apps by gesinn.it
Business Applications with Semantic Mediawiki.
http://semantic-apps.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

Yaron Koren-2
In reply to this post by fustbariclation
Hi,

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Peter Brooks <[hidden email]>
wrote:


> It's unfortunate, though, that you can't have the equivalent to a book
> - anybody can get it out of the library free, for their own
> information, but a company would need to pay to exploit the idea -
> because, through the book, it's getting the SME's consultancy.
>
>
Just to note, you can in fact do this - an SMW data structure consists of
wiki pages, and a wiki's content can be available under any license, or no
license; just because a wiki is publicly-readable doesn't mean that others
have a legal right to copy it.

-Yaron
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

fustbariclation
Yes. I think that this is the point of the Creative Commons non-commercial license.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 21 May 2015, at 05:20, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 1:24 AM, Peter Brooks <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> It's unfortunate, though, that you can't have the equivalent to a book
>> - anybody can get it out of the library free, for their own
>> information, but a company would need to pay to exploit the idea -
>> because, through the book, it's getting the SME's consultancy.
>
> Just to note, you can in fact do this - an SMW data structure consists of wiki pages, and a wiki's content can be available under any license, or no license; just because a wiki is publicly-readable doesn't mean that others have a legal right to copy it.
>
> -Yaron
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Re: Licensing SMW solutions

Schneider, Martin
In reply to this post by planetenxin
Thanks!

Martin

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: planetenxin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2015 21:40
An: Schneider, Martin
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Licensing SMW solutions

Martin,

here is everything you need to build semantic::core:

https://github.com/gesinn-it/puppet-mediawiki

Best regards,
Alexander

Am 20.05.2015 um 16:25 schrieb Schneider, Martin:

> Here I have to ask:
> "That's what we call 'semantic::core'. It's a 100% free and open-source enterprise MediaWiki distribution."
>
> When reading this I would say that I can download semantic::core from the web and use it according to the accompanying license.
>
> But this is not the case. There is only a page with pricing information: 3.900 € per installation. This is not what I would call free.
> https://www.semantic-apps.com/de/core/%C3%BCberblick
>
> I have to conclude that although the parts of semantic::core seem to be open source, semantic::core itself is not.
>
> Best regards, Martin


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