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Re: List archives

Thomas Morton
Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

For some reason I have a note in my records about the incident I was thinking of leading to the archive closure, but no idea why now :s

Again; sorry for the confusion!

Tom Morton

On 5 Apr 2012, at 23:06, HJ Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:

By whom, and on whose advice? Why weren't the subscribers to this list informed?

I don't expect you'll be able to answer those questions, Tom, but they're worth asking.


Harry


From: Thomas Morton <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, 5 April 2012, 22:48
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives

Well, as no one has answered...

It's related to an incident not long ago where there was a complaint over a message posted here about a named individual (not going to rehash that whole issue). The message was objected to (very strongly) and the archives were made subscriber only; I guess to mitigate the matter (and obviously avoid future incidents of the same type).

I'm sure others can fill in more details than I can. Just answering the basic question.

Tom

On 5 April 2012 04:57, joseph seddon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there any possibility of having question answered?

I am somewhat dissapointed at this list no longer being publically archived.

Seddon

> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:32:21 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives
>
> I think Mike can answer a few of these questions, but he's extremely
> busy over the weekend with conferences etc.
>
> Richard Symonds
> Office& Development Manager
> Wikimedia UK
> +44 (0) 207 065 0992
> --
> Wikimedia UK is the operating name of Wiki UK Limited, a Charitable Company
> Registered in England and Wales, No: 6741827. Charity No:1144513 Office: 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street,
> London EC2A 4LT.
> Wikimedia UK is the local chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate
> Wikipedia, amongst other projects). It is an independent non-profit
> organization with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for
> its contents.
>
>
> On 30/03/2012 01:37, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> > On 30 March 2012 01:33, HJ Mitchell<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> I thought you had to wait for approval by a list admin, but that approval
> >> was more-or-less automatic...
> > I just subscribed a new email address and I was able to read the
> > archives immediately.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> > WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

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Re: List archives

Thomas Dalton
On 5 April 2012 23:10, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

Perhaps that someone would like to tell us what the actual reason was?

All having the archives private does is make it more inconvenient.
Anyone can still access them by subscribing. They are still indexed by
search engines because there are unofficial archives elsewhere on the
web. What is the gain?

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: List archives

Fae-6
I have raised an action to the WM-UK board to provide a formal
explanation. This relates to some issues that we should handle with
sensitivity.

From mid January 2012, this list was changed so that you have to be a
list subscriber to read the archives, you just have to log in to
access it.

Some interesting points have been raised about who is responsible for
this list and its scope. I would like to see a definition that could
be added to <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l>.
Perhaps someone would like to kick off a statement of purpose and
scope on :wmuk ?

Cheers,
Fae
--
http://enwp.org/user_talk:fae
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/faetags

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Re: List archives

James Farrar
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton

The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially available, what is the problem?

On Apr 5, 2012 11:20 PM, "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5 April 2012 23:10, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

Perhaps that someone would like to tell us what the actual reason was?

All having the archives private does is make it more inconvenient.
Anyone can still access them by subscribing. They are still indexed by
search engines because there are unofficial archives elsewhere on the
web. What is the gain?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: List archives

joseph seddon
Its the perception of openness. I will note that this list pre-dates the existence of the chapter.  Such a fundamental change in how the openess of list is percieved is an unbelievably important concept, and without even discussing with the list community involved wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere should it have been done by the foundation.  

Its been used by both incarnations of chapter, wiki-meets, wikimania bids, in fact this list was pretty much the sole catalyst why the chapter got rebooted. This is list for use by the UK community as a whole. The chapter supports that community not control it.  I know that this is such a minor matter but it really is something that the board and whoever sits on it now and in the future has got to remember. I don't question the motives or integrity or the board. I am 100% certain that this was done in complete good faith but its a trap that I know people on and off the board are always worried about and that's the role of the chapter in the UK community. This is the kind of action that should not happen by committee. Its a unilateral move that is unwarrented and is simply unacceptable.

The action is pointless and I dont think that the archives should remain closed but the main point and one I have a major issue with, is how this action occured. I do not want to have to start making arguments to the board that we make to the foundation.

Seddon


Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 00:31:04 +0100
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives

The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially available, what is the problem?
On Apr 5, 2012 11:20 PM, "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5 April 2012 23:10, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

Perhaps that someone would like to tell us what the actual reason was?

All having the archives private does is make it more inconvenient.
Anyone can still access them by subscribing. They are still indexed by
search engines because there are unofficial archives elsewhere on the
web. What is the gain?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: List archives

James Farrar

The chapter doesn't in any sense control this list, does it?

As you note, the chapter is a subset of the UK community, and this list exists for the latter not the former. As such, holding the chapter liable for actions of the list  admin(s) would not be entirely rational.

On Apr 6, 2012 12:49 AM, "joseph seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Its the perception of openness. I will note that this list pre-dates the existence of the chapter.  Such a fundamental change in how the openess of list is percieved is an unbelievably important concept, and without even discussing with the list community involved wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere should it have been done by the foundation.  

Its been used by both incarnations of chapter, wiki-meets, wikimania bids, in fact this list was pretty much the sole catalyst why the chapter got rebooted. This is list for use by the UK community as a whole. The chapter supports that community not control it.  I know that this is such a minor matter but it really is something that the board and whoever sits on it now and in the future has got to remember. I don't question the motives or integrity or the board. I am 100% certain that this was done in complete good faith but its a trap that I know people on and off the board are always worried about and that's the role of the chapter in the UK community. This is the kind of action that should not happen by committee. Its a unilateral move that is unwarrented and is simply unacceptable.

The action is pointless and I dont think that the archives should remain closed but the main point and one I have a major issue with, is how this action occured. I do not want to have to start making arguments to the board that we make to the foundation.

Seddon


Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 00:31:04 +0100
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives

The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially available, what is the problem?
On Apr 5, 2012 11:20 PM, "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5 April 2012 23:10, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

Perhaps that someone would like to tell us what the actual reason was?

All having the archives private does is make it more inconvenient.
Anyone can still access them by subscribing. They are still indexed by
search engines because there are unofficial archives elsewhere on the
web. What is the gain?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: List archives

joseph seddon
The impression I have got is that this decision has stemmed from the chapter board.

Seddon


Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 01:00:33 +0100
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives

The chapter doesn't in any sense control this list, does it?
As you note, the chapter is a subset of the UK community, and this list exists for the latter not the former. As such, holding the chapter liable for actions of the list  admin(s) would not be entirely rational.
On Apr 6, 2012 12:49 AM, "joseph seddon" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Its the perception of openness. I will note that this list pre-dates the existence of the chapter.  Such a fundamental change in how the openess of list is percieved is an unbelievably important concept, and without even discussing with the list community involved wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere should it have been done by the foundation.  

Its been used by both incarnations of chapter, wiki-meets, wikimania bids, in fact this list was pretty much the sole catalyst why the chapter got rebooted. This is list for use by the UK community as a whole. The chapter supports that community not control it.  I know that this is such a minor matter but it really is something that the board and whoever sits on it now and in the future has got to remember. I don't question the motives or integrity or the board. I am 100% certain that this was done in complete good faith but its a trap that I know people on and off the board are always worried about and that's the role of the chapter in the UK community. This is the kind of action that should not happen by committee. Its a unilateral move that is unwarrented and is simply unacceptable.

The action is pointless and I dont think that the archives should remain closed but the main point and one I have a major issue with, is how this action occured. I do not want to have to start making arguments to the board that we make to the foundation.

Seddon


Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 00:31:04 +0100
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives

The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially available, what is the problem?
On Apr 5, 2012 11:20 PM, "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5 April 2012 23:10, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

Perhaps that someone would like to tell us what the actual reason was?

All having the archives private does is make it more inconvenient.
Anyone can still access them by subscribing. They are still indexed by
search engines because there are unofficial archives elsewhere on the
web. What is the gain?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: List archives

HJ Mitchell
In reply to this post by James Farrar
If there's no problem, then we should restore the status quo ante bellum - not being a problem is not a reason to not do (or undo) anything.

I think the members of this list are entitled to know when, why, by whom, and on whose instruction or advice the archives were made subscriber-only, and I think we're owed an explanation as to why nobody notified the list of this action.

Personally, I'm not especially fussed if the archives are public or private or what, but it's not the sort of thing that should be done without so much as a by-your-leave to the community - the list exists for the UK community, and the chapter and its board should not be attempting to govern it (especially not in camera), however pure their motives.

Harry


From: James Farrar <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, 6 April 2012, 0:31
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] List archives

The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially available, what is the problem?
On Apr 5, 2012 11:20 PM, "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5 April 2012 23:10, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well; someone just told me I was mistaken and that wasn't the reason. Sorry!

Perhaps that someone would like to tell us what the actual reason was?

All having the archives private does is make it more inconvenient.
Anyone can still access them by subscribing. They are still indexed by
search engines because there are unofficial archives elsewhere on the
web. What is the gain?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: List archives

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by James Farrar
On 6 April 2012 00:31, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially available,
> what is the problem?

Generally speaking, people acting with malicious intent are more
willing to jump through hoops than people acting in good faith. That
means having the archives private is more of a problem for people
acting in good faith than it is for people acting with malicious
intent. That is obviously a bad thing.

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Re: List archives

Fae-6
On 6 April 2012 07:14, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Generally speaking, people acting with malicious intent are more
> willing to jump through hoops than people acting in good faith.

{{citation needed}}

I think that those acting with malicious intent are unlikely to do
great research. It is more likely that they will just repeat gossip,
cherry pick sources, or even just make it up for the lolz.

Fae

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Re: List archives

Thomas Dalton
On 6 April 2012 07:25, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 6 April 2012 07:14, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Generally speaking, people acting with malicious intent are more
>> willing to jump through hoops than people acting in good faith.
>
> {{citation needed}}
>
> I think that those acting with malicious intent are unlikely to do
> great research. It is more likely that they will just repeat gossip,
> cherry pick sources, or even just make it up for the lolz.

If that's all they're doing, then just ignore them. It's the ones that
do jump through hoops that actually cause problems.

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Re: List archives

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by James Farrar
On 06/04/2012 00:31, James Farrar wrote:
> The counter-argument is, of course, if the archives are trivially
> available, what is the problem?
Yes, and the archives are cloned elswhere.

Gordo


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Re: List archives

Thehelpfulone
On 7 April 2012 12:48, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, and the archives are cloned elswhere.

Gordo

Consensus seems to be relatively clear - can a list admin make the appropriate tweak?

--
Thehelpfulone
English Wikipedia Administrator


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