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Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Frederick Noronha
Is this a bug or is it a feature?

Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a Wikipedia entry
once (or if) a page gets shifted.

I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via the
Talk) just disappears.

Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to be
untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said earlier.

If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover earlier
discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).

Am I missing something here?

FN

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
_/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
_/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
https://archive.org/details/goa1556
_/
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Ynhockey
The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves with
it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with the old
title. In any case it isn't deleted.

—Yan (User:Ynhockey).

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या
*فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is this a bug or is it a feature?
>
> Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a Wikipedia entry
> once (or if) a page gets shifted.
>
> I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via the
> Talk) just disappears.
>
> Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to be
> untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said earlier.
>
> If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover earlier
> discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
> FN
>
> --
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/
> _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
> _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
> _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
> https://archive.org/details/goa1556
> _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Benoit Landry
If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺


========================================
~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
                · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
                · Wikimedia Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page> member
                · UTRS Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>


-----Original Message-----
From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ynhockey
Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....



The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.



—Yan (User:Ynhockey).



On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



> Is this a bug or is it a feature?

>

> Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a Wikipedia

> entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.

>

> I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via

> the

> Talk) just disappears.

>

> Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to be

> untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said earlier.

>

> If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover

> earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).

>

> Am I missing something here?

>

> FN

>

> --

> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

> _/

> _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick

> http://goa1556.in _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn

> Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at

> https://archive.org/details/goa1556

> _/

> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

> _______________________________________________

> Wikipedia-l mailing list

> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>

> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

>

_______________________________________________

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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Frederick Noronha
This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be easily
accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy to
find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.

My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had some
valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).

It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
redirect a page!

My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a page
has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the record?

Thanks and regards,

Frederick.

On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be able
> to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
>
>
> ========================================
> ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
>                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>                 · Wikimedia Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
> member
>                 · UTRS Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Ynhockey
> Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>
>
>
> The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves with
> it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with the old
> title. In any case it isn't deleted.
>
>
>
> —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या
> *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
>
> >
>
> > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a Wikipedia
>
> > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
>
> >
>
> > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
>
> > the
>
> > Talk) just disappears.
>
> >
>
> > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to be
>
> > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said earlier.
>
> >
>
> > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
>
> > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
>
> >
>
> > Am I missing something here?
>
> >
>
> > FN
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _/
>
> > _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick
>
> > http://goa1556.in _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn
>
> > Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
>
> > https://archive.org/details/goa1556
>
> > _/
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>
> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>



--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
_/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
_/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
https://archive.org/details/goa1556
_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Benoit Landry
"Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace its content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk page whatsoever.

What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically redirected to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the top will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have a note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where you can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].

Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.

========================================
~ Ben / Salvidrim!
        · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
        · Wikimedia Canada member
        · UTRS Ambassador


-----Original Message-----
From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be easily accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy to find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.

My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had some valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).

It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to redirect a page!

My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a page has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the record?

Thanks and regards,

Frederick.

On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
> able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
>
>
> ========================================
> ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
>                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>                 · Wikimedia
> Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
> member
>                 · UTRS
> Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Ynhockey
> Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>
>
>
> The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
> with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
> the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
>
>
>
> —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
> नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
>
> >
>
> > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
> > Wikipedia
>
> > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
>
> >
>
> > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
>
> > the
>
> > Talk) just disappears.
>
> >
>
> > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
> > be
>
> > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said earlier.
>
> >
>
> > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
>
> > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
>
> >
>
> > Am I missing something here?
>
> >
>
> > FN
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _/
>
> > _/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick
>
> > http://goa1556.in _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn
>
> > Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
>
> > https://archive.org/details/goa1556
>
> > _/
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>
> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> > rg>
>
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>



--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in _/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha _/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
https://archive.org/details/goa1556
_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Frederick Noronha
Continuing a thread from some time back:

Is it possible to get back the earlier discussion from this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr
prior to it being shifted?

(The page was earlier called Journalist Richard Gutjahr)
After the name was changed, the earlier discussion is not easily
accessible, or someone visiting a page would not get an idea of what was
said about it.

I'm concerned that there might be some systemic flaw with the way the
Wikipedia works here.

Any change of name in a page could result in the loss of all the earlier
discussion, or make it difficult to find. Even if it's very relevant to the
page as currently renamed.

Please note, that this page has since got a "may not meet Wikipedia
notability guidelines" tag, which I think could be a sign of things going
wrong due to a flaw in how the software works.... and the fact that the
earlier discussion is not easily accessible now.

FN

On 23 December 2016 at 20:25, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> "Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace its
> content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk page
> whatsoever.
>
> What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to
> [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by
> afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically redirected
> to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the top
> will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at
> [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it
> directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have a
> note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where you
> can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without
> being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].
>
> Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're
> talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.
>
> ========================================
> ~ Ben / Salvidrim!
>         · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>         · Wikimedia Canada member
>         · UTRS Ambassador
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
> Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>
> This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
> reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
> accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be easily
> accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy to
> find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.
>
> My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had some
> valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).
>
> It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
> way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
> redirect a page!
>
> My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a page
> has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
> prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the record?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Frederick.
>
> On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
> > able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
> >
> >
> > ========================================
> > ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
> >                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
> >                 · Wikimedia
> > Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
> > member
> >                 · UTRS
> > Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Ynhockey
> > Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
> > To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
> >
> >
> >
> > The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
> > with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
> > the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
> >
> >
> >
> > —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
> > नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
> > > Wikipedia
> >
> > > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
> >
> > > the
> >
> > > Talk) just disappears.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
> > > be
> >
> > > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said
> earlier.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
> >
> > > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Am I missing something here?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > FN
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --
> >
> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> >
> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> >
> > > _/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >
> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> > >
> >
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Frederick Noronha
Just to add, there has been a discussion on a related link on Reddit too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4u92vi/wiki_page_of_einat_wilf_scrubbed_wife_of_richard/
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Aarons MAGGY
Thought you may like this


________________________________
From: Wikipedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]>
Sent: 19 February 2017 23:21
To: Wikipedia mailing list
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Just to add, there has been a discussion on a related link on Reddit too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4u92vi/wiki_page_of_einat_wilf_scrubbed_wife_of_richard/
Wiki page of Einat Wilf Scrubbed: Wife of Richard Gutjahr ...<https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4u92vi/wiki_page_of_einat_wilf_scrubbed_wife_of_richard/>
www.reddit.com
The Admin Closure of /r/pizzagate and its Implications for /r/conspiracy. Conspiracy - a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful



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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Frederick Noronha
In reply to this post by Frederick Noronha
Please could you give a link pointing to the old 'talk' page for this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr

And, how is it possible to keep track of a 'talk' page, once the main
page's heading is changed?

FN

On 20 February 2017 at 14:48, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या
*فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Continuing a thread from some time back:
>
> Is it possible to get back the earlier discussion from this page
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr
> prior to it being shifted?
>
> (The page was earlier called Journalist Richard Gutjahr)
> After the name was changed, the earlier discussion is not easily
> accessible, or someone visiting a page would not get an idea of what was
> said about it.
>
> I'm concerned that there might be some systemic flaw with the way the
> Wikipedia works here.
>
> Any change of name in a page could result in the loss of all the earlier
> discussion, or make it difficult to find. Even if it's very relevant to the
> page as currently renamed.
>
> Please note, that this page has since got a "may not meet Wikipedia
> notability guidelines" tag, which I think could be a sign of things going
> wrong due to a flaw in how the software works.... and the fact that the
> earlier discussion is not easily accessible now.
>
> FN
>
> On 23 December 2016 at 20:25, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> "Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace
>> its content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk page
>> whatsoever.
>>
>> What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to
>> [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by
>> afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically redirected
>> to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the top
>> will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at
>> [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it
>> directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have a
>> note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where you
>> can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without
>> being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].
>>
>> Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're
>> talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.
>>
>> ========================================
>> ~ Ben / Salvidrim!
>>         · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>>         · Wikimedia Canada member
>>         · UTRS Ambassador
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
>> Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
>> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>>
>> This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
>> reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
>> accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be easily
>> accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy to
>> find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.
>>
>> My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had
>> some valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).
>>
>> It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
>> way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
>> redirect a page!
>>
>> My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a page
>> has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
>> prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the record?
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>>
>> Frederick.
>>
>> On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
>> > able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
>> >
>> >
>> > ========================================
>> > ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
>> >                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>> >                 · Wikimedia
>> > Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
>> > member
>> >                 · UTRS
>> > Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> > Behalf Of Ynhockey
>> > Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
>> > To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
>> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
>> > with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
>> > the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
>> > नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
>> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
>> > > Wikipedia
>> >
>> > > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
>> >
>> > > the
>> >
>> > > Talk) just disappears.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
>> > > be
>> >
>> > > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said
>> earlier.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
>> >
>> > > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Am I missing something here?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > FN
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > --
>> >
>> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> >
>> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> >
>> > > _/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> >
>> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> > >
>> >
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>


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_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
_/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
_/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
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_/
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Alex Y. Kwan
There is an option to move the talk page alongside the subject page

On 22 Feb 2017 5:17 PM, "Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك
نورونيا" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please could you give a link pointing to the old 'talk' page for this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr

And, how is it possible to keep track of a 'talk' page, once the main
page's heading is changed?

FN

On 20 February 2017 at 14:48, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या
*فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Continuing a thread from some time back:
>
> Is it possible to get back the earlier discussion from this page
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr
> prior to it being shifted?
>
> (The page was earlier called Journalist Richard Gutjahr)
> After the name was changed, the earlier discussion is not easily
> accessible, or someone visiting a page would not get an idea of what was
> said about it.
>
> I'm concerned that there might be some systemic flaw with the way the
> Wikipedia works here.
>
> Any change of name in a page could result in the loss of all the earlier
> discussion, or make it difficult to find. Even if it's very relevant to
the

> page as currently renamed.
>
> Please note, that this page has since got a "may not meet Wikipedia
> notability guidelines" tag, which I think could be a sign of things going
> wrong due to a flaw in how the software works.... and the fact that the
> earlier discussion is not easily accessible now.
>
> FN
>
> On 23 December 2016 at 20:25, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> "Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace
>> its content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk
page
>> whatsoever.
>>
>> What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to
>> [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by
>> afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically
redirected
>> to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the
top
>> will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at
>> [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it
>> directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have a
>> note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where
you

>> can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without
>> being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].
>>
>> Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're
>> talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.
>>
>> ========================================
>> ~ Ben / Salvidrim!
>>         · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>>         · Wikimedia Canada member
>>         · UTRS Ambassador
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
>> Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
>> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>>
>> This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
>> reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
>> accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be easily
>> accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy to
>> find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.
>>
>> My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had
>> some valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).
>>
>> It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
>> way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
>> redirect a page!
>>
>> My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a page
>> has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
>> prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the
record?

>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>>
>> Frederick.
>>
>> On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
>> > able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
>> >
>> >
>> > ========================================
>> > ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
>> >                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>> >                 · Wikimedia
>> > Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
>> > member
>> >                 · UTRS
>> > Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> > Behalf Of Ynhockey
>> > Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
>> > To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
>> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
>> > with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
>> > the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
>> > नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
>> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
>> > > Wikipedia
>> >
>> > > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
>> >
>> > > the
>> >
>> > > Talk) just disappears.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
>> > > be
>> >
>> > > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said
>> earlier.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
>> >
>> > > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Am I missing something here?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > FN
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > --
>> >
>> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> >
>> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> >
>> > > _/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> >
>> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> > >
>> >
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>


--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/
_/  Frederick Noronha  http://about.me/noronhafrederick http://goa1556.in
_/  P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter @fn Fcbk:fredericknoronha
_/  Hear Goa,1556 shared audio content at
https://archive.org/details/goa1556
_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Andre Engels
In reply to this post by Frederick Noronha
The discussion page was moved together with the page itself. The
discussion is still on the discussion page of the new page.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Continuing a thread from some time back:
>
> Is it possible to get back the earlier discussion from this page
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr
> prior to it being shifted?
>
> (The page was earlier called Journalist Richard Gutjahr)
> After the name was changed, the earlier discussion is not easily
> accessible, or someone visiting a page would not get an idea of what was
> said about it.
>
> I'm concerned that there might be some systemic flaw with the way the
> Wikipedia works here.
>
> Any change of name in a page could result in the loss of all the earlier
> discussion, or make it difficult to find. Even if it's very relevant to the
> page as currently renamed.
>
> Please note, that this page has since got a "may not meet Wikipedia
> notability guidelines" tag, which I think could be a sign of things going
> wrong due to a flaw in how the software works.... and the fact that the
> earlier discussion is not easily accessible now.
>
> FN
>
> On 23 December 2016 at 20:25, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> "Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace its
>> content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk page
>> whatsoever.
>>
>> What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to
>> [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by
>> afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically redirected
>> to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the top
>> will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at
>> [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it
>> directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have a
>> note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where you
>> can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without
>> being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].
>>
>> Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're
>> talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.
>>
>> ========================================
>> ~ Ben / Salvidrim!
>>         · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>>         · Wikimedia Canada member
>>         · UTRS Ambassador
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
>> Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
>> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>>
>> This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
>> reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
>> accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be easily
>> accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy to
>> find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.
>>
>> My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had some
>> valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).
>>
>> It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
>> way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
>> redirect a page!
>>
>> My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a page
>> has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
>> prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the record?
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>>
>> Frederick.
>>
>> On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
>> > able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
>> >
>> >
>> > ========================================
>> > ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
>> >                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
>> >                 · Wikimedia
>> > Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
>> > member
>> >                 · UTRS
>> > Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> > Behalf Of Ynhockey
>> > Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
>> > To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
>> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
>> > with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
>> > the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
>> > नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
>> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
>> > > Wikipedia
>> >
>> > > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
>> >
>> > > the
>> >
>> > > Talk) just disappears.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
>> > > be
>> >
>> > > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said
>> earlier.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
>> >
>> > > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Am I missing something here?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > FN
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > --
>> >
>> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> >
>> > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> >
>> > > _/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> >
>> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> > >
>> >
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l



--
André Engels, [hidden email]

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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Frederick Noronha
Obviously not.
The page was moved on  09:53, 9 August 2016
<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Gutjahr&oldid=733665909>‎
and the first comment on the talk page was only on 7 August 2016 (UTC)
There were discussions before that too. Have been following it.
I am just concerned about a 'change in page name' being used as a form of
censorship of the talk record.
Can someone show me a way to access the 'talk' of the earlier page please?
Assuming that can be done?
FN

On 23 February 2017 at 14:37, Andre Engels <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The discussion page was moved together with the page itself. The
> discussion is still on the discussion page of the new page.
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
> नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Continuing a thread from some time back:
> >
> > Is it possible to get back the earlier discussion from this page
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr
> > prior to it being shifted?
> >
> > (The page was earlier called Journalist Richard Gutjahr)
> > After the name was changed, the earlier discussion is not easily
> > accessible, or someone visiting a page would not get an idea of what was
> > said about it.
> >
> > I'm concerned that there might be some systemic flaw with the way the
> > Wikipedia works here.
> >
> > Any change of name in a page could result in the loss of all the earlier
> > discussion, or make it difficult to find. Even if it's very relevant to
> the
> > page as currently renamed.
> >
> > Please note, that this page has since got a "may not meet Wikipedia
> > notability guidelines" tag, which I think could be a sign of things going
> > wrong due to a flaw in how the software works.... and the fact that the
> > earlier discussion is not easily accessible now.
> >
> > FN
> >
> > On 23 December 2016 at 20:25, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace
> its
> >> content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk page
> >> whatsoever.
> >>
> >> What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to
> >> [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by
> >> afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically
> redirected
> >> to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the
> top
> >> will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at
> >> [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it
> >> directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have
> a
> >> note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where
> you
> >> can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without
> >> being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].
> >>
> >> Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're
> >> talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.
> >>
> >> ========================================
> >> ~ Ben / Salvidrim!
> >>         · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
> >>         · Wikimedia Canada member
> >>         · UTRS Ambassador
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> >> Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
> >> Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
> >> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
> >>
> >> This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
> >> reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
> >> accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be
> easily
> >> accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy
> to
> >> find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.
> >>
> >> My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had
> some
> >> valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).
> >>
> >> It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
> >> way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
> >> redirect a page!
> >>
> >> My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a
> page
> >> has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
> >> prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the
> record?
> >>
> >> Thanks and regards,
> >>
> >> Frederick.
> >>
> >> On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
> >> > able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ========================================
> >> > ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
> >> >                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
> >> >                 · Wikimedia
> >> > Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
> >> > member
> >> >                 · UTRS
> >> > Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> >> > Behalf Of Ynhockey
> >> > Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
> >> > To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> >> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
> >> > with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
> >> > the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
> >> > नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
> >> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
> >> > > Wikipedia
> >> >
> >> > > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
> >> >
> >> > > the
> >> >
> >> > > Talk) just disappears.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
> >> > > be
> >> >
> >> > > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said
> >> earlier.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
> >> >
> >> > > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Am I missing something here?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > FN
> >> >
> >> > >
>
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Re: Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Benoit Landry
There were no talk page discussions prior to the move.


  *   The article was created by you on August 5th, 2016 at "Journalist Richard Gutjahr".
  *   "Talk:Journalist Richard Gutjahr" was created on August 7th, 2016, by User:FeanorStar7, with a banner and a rename suggestion (diff<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Richard_Gutjahr&oldid=733437352>)
  *   On August 9th, 2016, the article and its talk page were moved by User:The Banner from "Journalist Richard Gutjahr" to "Richard Gutjahr" and all the revisions of the article and its talk page were moved in the history of the new article.


What leads you to think there were more discussions between the creation on Aug 5th and the move on Aug 9th?
You don't have any talk page contributions during that span. And no deleted contributions either. Why are you so sure there were discussions during that span of time?

Do you recall which username(s) might have taken part in the alleged talk page discussions?


========================================

~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!

· English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk

· <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page> Wikimedia Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page> member

· <https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb> UTRS Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>



________________________________
From: Wikipedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]>
Sent: February 23, 2017 4:36 AM
To: Wikipedia mailing list
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....

Obviously not.
The page was moved on  09:53, 9 August 2016
<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Gutjahr&oldid=733665909>‎
and the first comment on the talk page was only on 7 August 2016 (UTC)
There were discussions before that too. Have been following it.
I am just concerned about a 'change in page name' being used as a form of
censorship of the talk record.
Can someone show me a way to access the 'talk' of the earlier page please?
Assuming that can be done?
FN

On 23 February 2017 at 14:37, Andre Engels <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The discussion page was moved together with the page itself. The
> discussion is still on the discussion page of the new page.
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
> नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Continuing a thread from some time back:
> >
> > Is it possible to get back the earlier discussion from this page
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Gutjahr
> > prior to it being shifted?
> >
> > (The page was earlier called Journalist Richard Gutjahr)
> > After the name was changed, the earlier discussion is not easily
> > accessible, or someone visiting a page would not get an idea of what was
> > said about it.
> >
> > I'm concerned that there might be some systemic flaw with the way the
> > Wikipedia works here.
> >
> > Any change of name in a page could result in the loss of all the earlier
> > discussion, or make it difficult to find. Even if it's very relevant to
> the
> > page as currently renamed.
> >
> > Please note, that this page has since got a "may not meet Wikipedia
> > notability guidelines" tag, which I think could be a sign of things going
> > wrong due to a flaw in how the software works.... and the fact that the
> > earlier discussion is not easily accessible now.
> >
> > FN
> >
> > On 23 December 2016 at 20:25, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Redirecting" an article normally means editing the article to replace
> its
> >> content with "#REDIRECT [[Target]]". It shouldn't affect the talk page
> >> whatsoever.
> >>
> >> What might be confusing is that, for example, if you redirect [[Foo]] to
> >> [[Bar]] (by editing [[Foo]]'s content to be "#REDIRECT [[Bar]]"), by
> >> afterwards navigating to the [[Foo]] page you are automatically
> redirected
> >> to [[Bar]] (that's the whole point), which means the "Talk" tab at the
> top
> >> will lead to [[Talk:Bar]]. The talk page for [[Foo]] is still at
> >> [[Talk:Foo]] but to access it, you will need to either navigate to it
> >> directly, or if you go to [[Foo]] and it loads [[Bar]], you should have
> a
> >> note under the page header that says "(Redirected from [[Foo]])", where
> you
> >> can click on the link to [[Foo]] and thus load the [[Foo]] page without
> >> being redirected, and then the "Talk" tab will lead to [[Talk:Foo]].
> >>
> >> Hopefully that makes sense! If you tell us exactly what page you're
> >> talking about we'll be able to help you more precisely.
> >>
> >> ========================================
> >> ~ Ben / Salvidrim!
> >>         · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
> >>         · Wikimedia Canada member
> >>         · UTRS Ambassador
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> >> Behalf Of Frederick FN Noronha ????????? ???????? *??????? ???????
> >> Sent: 23 déc. 2016 03:09
> >> To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
> >>
> >> This happened with me once. I redirected a page (for entirely legitimate
> >> reasons), and to my surprise and horror found that the 'Talk' page
> >> accompanying it had more or less vanished, and could not longer be
> easily
> >> accessed.  Maybe it was still available somewhere, but it was not easy
> to
> >> find, nor was it linked to the main entry of the page.
> >>
> >> My intention in this case was not to hide the Talk page (since it had
> some
> >> valuable discussion, and multiple points of view on it).
> >>
> >> It just struck me that if there was some controversial content, the best
> >> way anyone wanting to block or censor it (the Talk page) would be to
> >> redirect a page!
> >>
> >> My question: (i) are the earlier talk pages easily find-able after a
> page
> >> has been redirected elsewhere? (ii) is there some way they can be made
> >> prominent, so that the earlier discussion is also available for the
> record?
> >>
> >> Thanks and regards,
> >>
> >> Frederick.
> >>
> >> On 22 December 2016 at 21:15, Ben Salvidrim <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If you tell us what page you’re talking about Frederick, we might be
> >> > able to help you locate the talk page you can’t find. ☺
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ========================================
> >> > ~ Ben / Salvidrim<https://salvidrim.net/>!
> >> >                 · English Wikipedia Administrator & SPI Clerk
> >> >                 · Wikimedia
> >> > Canada<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page>
> >> > member
> >> >                 · UTRS
> >> > Ambassador<https://utrs.wmflabs.org/team.php#tamb>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Wikipedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> >> > Behalf Of Ynhockey
> >> > Sent: 22 déc. 2016 10:25
> >> > To: Wikipedia mailing list <[hidden email]>
> >> > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Losing the 'talk' discussion on a page....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The person who moves the page can specify whether the talk page moves
> >> > with it, so either it moves with the actual page, or stays behind with
> >> > the old title. In any case it isn't deleted.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > —Yan (User:Ynhockey).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक
> >> > नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <[hidden email]<mailto:
> >> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Is this a bug or is it a feature?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Just wanted to know what happens to the 'talk' section of a
> >> > > Wikipedia
> >> >
> >> > > entry once (or if) a page gets shifted.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > I noticed that the earlier discussions (that might have come up via
> >> >
> >> > > the
> >> >
> >> > > Talk) just disappears.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Now, this isn't very helpful. Because all the earlier talk seems to
> >> > > be
> >> >
> >> > > untraceable, and there is a complete vacuum about what was said
> >> earlier.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > If anyone wishes, this system can be abused (for instance, to cover
> >> >
> >> > > earlier discussions... by simply changing the title of the page).
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Am I missing something here?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > FN
> >> >
> >> > >
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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