Lua deployed to test2wiki

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Lua deployed to test2wiki

Tim Starling-2
The Lua extension (Scribunto) is now enabled on test2wiki.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated, especially if it comes in the
form of bug reports and feature requests filed in the "Scribunto"
component in Bugzilla.

<https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=MediaWiki%20extensions&component=Scribunto>

-- Tim Starling


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Re: Lua deployed to test2wiki

Rob Lanphier-4
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The Lua extension (Scribunto) is now enabled on test2wiki.
>
> Feedback would be greatly appreciated, especially if it comes in the
> form of bug reports and feature requests filed in the "Scribunto"
> component in Bugzilla.
>
> <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=MediaWiki%20extensions&component=Scribunto>

Huzzah!

Next step is to deploy this on mediawiki.org, which we plan to do soon
(as early as next week).  From there, we'll need some time figuring
out the performance characteristics of this (making sure we're
actually coming out ahead) as well as converting some key templates
over.  Of course, I'm using "we" pretty loosely; Tim's largely been
managing this process himself.  :)

Just poking around this evening, I imported some work that TheDJ did
over from scribunto.wmflabs.org over to test2, and it seems to work
about as well there:
http://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Coord/testcases

It looks like there still some work to do to finish off that template,
but he made a lot of progress.

One obvious target for converting to Lua would be the Cite template.
It would be really great to take an article with a long parse time
(e.g. the "Barack Obama" or "The Beatles"), import it to test2, and
try to get the parse time down to something reasonable simply by
converting the Cite+other key templates to Lua.

Rob

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Re: Lua deployed to test2wiki

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
Tim Starling wrote:
> The Lua extension (Scribunto) is now enabled on test2wiki.

test2wiki --> https://test2.wikipedia.org

Congrats on the deployment. :-)  I'll probably file a few bugs against
Scribunto in the coming days.

MZMcBride



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Re: Lua deployed to test2wiki

Ori Livneh
In reply to this post by Rob Lanphier-4
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
> One obvious target for converting to Lua would be the Cite template.
> It would be really great to take an article with a long parse time
> (e.g. the "Barack Obama" or "The Beatles"), import it to test2, and
> try to get the parse time down to something reasonable simply by
> converting the Cite+other key templates to Lua.

Template:Cite is terrifyingly complex. What are some other key templates?

There must be others like me who want the fame and fortune of being an early adopter, without all that the hard work :)

--
Ori Livneh
[hidden email]



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Re: Lua deployed to test2wiki

Ori Livneh
To answer my own question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_reports/Templates_transcluded_on_the_most_pages 

--
Ori Livneh
[hidden email]


On Monday, August 20, 2012 at 12:30 AM, Ori Livneh wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
> > One obvious target for converting to Lua would be the Cite template.
> > It would be really great to take an article with a long parse time
> > (e.g. the "Barack Obama" or "The Beatles"), import it to test2, and
> > try to get the parse time down to something reasonable simply by
> > converting the Cite+other key templates to Lua.
>
>
>
> Template:Cite is terrifyingly complex. What are some other key templates?
>
> There must be others like me who want the fame and fortune of being an early adopter, without all that the hard work :)
>
> --
> Ori Livneh
> [hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])




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Re: Lua deployed to test2wiki

Tyler Romeo
I know if I happen to have time to learn Lua, I'd definitely tackle the
ArticleHistory template. One of the more complex ones out there.

*--*
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015
Major in Computer Science
www.whizkidztech.com | [hidden email]



On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Ori Livneh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To answer my own question:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_reports/Templates_transcluded_on_the_most_pages
>
> --
> Ori Livneh
> [hidden email]
>
>
> On Monday, August 20, 2012 at 12:30 AM, Ori Livneh wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
> > > One obvious target for converting to Lua would be the Cite template.
> > > It would be really great to take an article with a long parse time
> > > (e.g. the "Barack Obama" or "The Beatles"), import it to test2, and
> > > try to get the parse time down to something reasonable simply by
> > > converting the Cite+other key templates to Lua.
> >
> >
> >
> > Template:Cite is terrifyingly complex. What are some other key templates?
> >
> > There must be others like me who want the fame and fortune of being an
> early adopter, without all that the hard work :)
> >
> > --
> > Ori Livneh
> > [hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Lua deployed to test2wiki

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Ori Livneh
Ori Livneh wrote:

> On Monday, August 20, 2012 at 12:30 AM, Ori Livneh wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
>>> One obvious target for converting to Lua would be the Cite template.
>>> It would be really great to take an article with a long parse time
>>> (e.g. the "Barack Obama" or "The Beatles"), import it to test2, and
>>> try to get the parse time down to something reasonable simply by
>>> converting the Cite+other key templates to Lua.
>>
>> Template:Cite is terrifyingly complex. What are some other key templates?
>>
>> There must be others like me who want the fame and fortune of being an early
>> adopter, without all that the hard work :)
>
> To answer my own question:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_reports/Templates_transcluded
> _on_the_most_pages

Templates that are transcluded a lot usually are not the most complex or the
most interesting.

As I understand it, brace substitution and recursion depth were/are the big
performance killers with ParserFunctions.

I could swear that you used to be able to profile Parser::BraceSubstitution
or something similar directly with a ?forceprofile=true or ?forcetrace=true
URL parameter, but it doesn't seem to be working now. (?forceprofile=true
still outputs an HTML comment with some profiling information;
?forcetrace=true seems to do nothing.)

I believe Tim has created or plans to create better profiling tools for
templates. I have no idea what the status of that is.

If you're looking for other nerdy/fun templates to convert, the chess
templates come to mind.

MZMcBride



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Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Tim Starling-2
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.

Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
again.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Yury Katkov
Hi Tim!

Would you mind you please tell me where

1) the discussion about deploying Lua on mw.org ,
2) the announcement that it will be deployed on mw.org on Aug 22.
3) the roadmap and plans of further deployment of Scribunto on
Wikipedias and other Wikimedia projects

...took place? I'm sure that such discussions has taken place
somewhere, because if not - that's not very mature behavior for open
source developer team.

-----
Yury Katkov



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.
>
> Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
> templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
> again.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Amir E. Aharoni
Here it is:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-August/062329.html

It was on August 15 and it says "next week".

--
Amir

2012/8/22 Yury Katkov <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Tim!
>
> Would you mind you please tell me where
>
> 1) the discussion about deploying Lua on mw.org ,
> 2) the announcement that it will be deployed on mw.org on Aug 22.
> 3) the roadmap and plans of further deployment of Scribunto on
> Wikipedias and other Wikimedia projects
>
> ...took place? I'm sure that such discussions has taken place
> somewhere, because if not - that's not very mature behavior for open
> source developer team.
>
> -----
> Yury Katkov
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.
>>
>> Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
>> templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
>> again.
>>
>> -- Tim Starling
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Domas Mituzas
In reply to this post by Yury Katkov
> ...took place? I'm sure that such discussions has taken place
> somewhere, because if not - that's not very mature behavior for open
> source developer team.

why do you have to be such an ass, by the way?

Domas

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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Yury Katkov
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
I'm very sorry for my bureaucratic tone: I don't want to harm anyone
and I'm as excited about new feature as everybody here. That's just
seems like pretty important change on a pretty big website with a big
community: it's rude to just modify it in all sort of ways without
prior discussions, recognizable announcements and publicly available
plans.
-----
Yury Katkov



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here it is:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-August/062329.html
>
> It was on August 15 and it says "next week".
>
> --
> Amir
>
> 2012/8/22 Yury Katkov <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi Tim!
>>
>> Would you mind you please tell me where
>>
>> 1) the discussion about deploying Lua on mw.org ,
>> 2) the announcement that it will be deployed on mw.org on Aug 22.
>> 3) the roadmap and plans of further deployment of Scribunto on
>> Wikipedias and other Wikimedia projects
>>
>> ...took place? I'm sure that such discussions has taken place
>> somewhere, because if not - that's not very mature behavior for open
>> source developer team.
>>
>> -----
>> Yury Katkov
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.
>>>
>>> Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
>>> templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
>>> again.
>>>
>>> -- Tim Starling
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Yury Katkov
In reply to this post by Domas Mituzas
I have probably used very offensive English phrase without noticing,
sorry: I tried to be neutral.
-----
Yury Katkov



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Domas Mituzas <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> ...took place? I'm sure that such discussions has taken place
>> somewhere, because if not - that's not very mature behavior for open
>> source developer team.
>
> why do you have to be such an ass, by the way?
>
> Domas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Tim Starling-2
In reply to this post by Yury Katkov
Like Amir said, it was announced a week ago. There were no objections.

There were very few comments on the test2 deployment, probably because
the Labs deployment served the same purpose.

What we want from the mediawiki.org deployment is to start building a
community of people who will convert templates to Lua, not just
because they want to help us test the software, but also because they
want to get useful things done. Their comments will help to drive
future development.

Our goal is to deploy this extension to all Wikimedia wikis. If you
don't like that idea, now would be a good time to say something.

The schedule for deployment has not yet been decided. It will depend
on what bug reports and feature requests are submitted by the early
adopters. Performance issues may be found, once we have real-world
test cases. We will need to decide how much extra development work is
needed before a full-scale rollout.

It's been over a year since I started work on Lua support. From the
outset, I wanted it to be a project with a constrained scope, a
project that can be brought to completion, instead of trailing off
into vapour. I wanted to make something happen.

So my inclination is to push for deployment with a minimum of
additional development work. But I'm not the target audience; my
inclinations have to be weighed against the needs of the users.

-- Tim Starling

On 22/08/12 18:01, Yury Katkov wrote:

> Hi Tim!
>
> Would you mind you please tell me where
>
> 1) the discussion about deploying Lua on mw.org ,
> 2) the announcement that it will be deployed on mw.org on Aug 22.
> 3) the roadmap and plans of further deployment of Scribunto on
> Wikipedias and other Wikimedia projects
>
> ...took place? I'm sure that such discussions has taken place
> somewhere, because if not - that's not very mature behavior for open
> source developer team.
>
> -----
> Yury Katkov
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.
>>
>> Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
>> templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
>> again.
>>
>> -- Tim Starling
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Helder .
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
Are we allowed to import code licensed under GPL  (or other free
*software* license) to the Module namespace?
(this was mentioned in the other thread[1])

Best regards,
Helder

[1] http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/wikitech/290192

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.
>
> Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
> templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
> again.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Tobias
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
On 08/22/2012 12:18 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
> So my inclination is to push for deployment with a minimum of
> additional development work. But I'm not the target audience; my
> inclinations have to be weighed against the needs of the users.

in the name of countless Wikipedians, who are struggeling with that
horrible Template/Magic word/ParserFunctions syntax, I say: thank you :)

This page is dedicated to its victims:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Church_of_emacs/Template_love

Cheers,
Tobias



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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Tyler Romeo
I think Yury has a point. Now would be a good time to maybe discuss exactly
what's going on. As exciting a feature it may be, we cannot just "deploy
next week" and then have "the schedule for deployment not yet decided".
Stuff like this should have a legitimate plan. Furthermore, in alignment
with the previous thread on feature development, is there any hard
discussion on enwiki, etc. showing the users want this feature? I know sure
as hell that I'd love using this feature, but I don't represent all
template developers everywhere.

Some good questions we should probably answer (if they haven't been
answered already):

   - Is Extension:Lua the extension being deployed? If so, why is it still
   in Subversion and why is it marked experimental?
   - What QA has been done on this extension? How many test cases have been
   implemented?
   - What are the performance impacts of using this v. regular parser
   functions? (Also, what is faster, PECL or external interpreter?)
   - Do global variables persist outside of an individual script, i.e., can
   one global variable be used in multiple <lua> tags in the same template?
   - Has there been any consideration of implementing a "standard library"?
   For example, functions that will allow the creation of wikitables and other
   mediawiki syntax.
   - What values for the various wgLuaMax* variables are we planning on
   using on WMF wikis? Has there been testing done to determine what a
   reasonable maximum call time is?

I probably should have looked into this more earlier, but it's been a busy
week for me and I haven't had much time.

*--*
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015
Major in Computer Science
www.whizkidztech.com | [hidden email]



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Tobias
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 08/22/2012 12:18 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
> > So my inclination is to push for deployment with a minimum of
> > additional development work. But I'm not the target audience; my
> > inclinations have to be weighed against the needs of the users.
>
> in the name of countless Wikipedians, who are struggeling with that
> horrible Template/Magic word/ParserFunctions syntax, I say: thank you :)
>
> This page is dedicated to its victims:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Church_of_emacs/Template_love
>
> Cheers,
> Tobias
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Derric Atzrott
>I think Yury has a point. Now would be a good time to maybe discuss
>exactly what's going on. As exciting a feature it may be, we cannot just
>"deploy next week" and then have "the schedule for deployment not yet
>decided".
>
>Stuff like this should have a legitimate plan. Furthermore, in alignment
>with the previous thread on feature development, is there any hard
>discussion on enwiki, etc. showing the users want this feature? I know
>sure as hell that I'd love using this feature, but I don't represent all
>template developers everywhere.

Anyone else reminded of the recent topic:"Wikimedians are rightfully wary"

I think the sorts of things that MZMcBride was talking about in his op-ed.
Sorry for the slightly off topic post, but this seemed like as good a time
as any to point out a real life example.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Neil Harris
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
On 22/08/12 06:36, Tim Starling wrote:
> Lua is now enabled on www.mediawiki.org.
>
> Note that this is not a temporary deployment. You can rewrite existing
> templates to use Lua, we're not going to break them by turning it off
> again.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>

Just a thought: has someone yet considered a script for automatically
transforming existing templates from template wikisyntax to Lua? I
wouldn't have thought it would be too hard for many common cases,
although obviously it wouldn't make any sense to translate pathological
Wikitext templates into pathological Lua.

Neil


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Re: Lua deployed to www.mediawiki.org

Yury Katkov
In reply to this post by Tyler Romeo
-----
Yury Katkov



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think Yury has a point. Now would be a good time to maybe discuss exactly
> what's going on. As exciting a feature it may be, we cannot just "deploy
> next week" and then have "the schedule for deployment not yet decided".
> Stuff like this should have a legitimate plan. Furthermore, in alignment
> with the previous thread on feature development, is there any hard
> discussion on enwiki, etc. showing the users want this feature? I know sure
> as hell that I'd love using this feature, but I don't represent all
> template developers everywhere.
>
> Some good questions we should probably answer (if they haven't been
> answered already):
>
>    - Is Extension:Lua the extension being deployed? If so, why is it still
>    in Subversion and why is it marked experimental?
as far as I can see this extensions have been deployed :
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Scribunto , not this one:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Lua

>    - What QA has been done on this extension? How many test cases have been
>    implemented?
>    - What are the performance impacts of using this v. regular parser
>    functions? (Also, what is faster, PECL or external interpreter?)
>    - Do global variables persist outside of an individual script, i.e., can
>    one global variable be used in multiple <lua> tags in the same template?
>    - Has there been any consideration of implementing a "standard library"?
>    For example, functions that will allow the creation of wikitables and other
>    mediawiki syntax.
>    - What values for the various wgLuaMax* variables are we planning on
>    using on WMF wikis? Has there been testing done to determine what a
>    reasonable maximum call time is?
>
> I probably should have looked into this more earlier, but it's been a busy
> week for me and I haven't had much time.
>
> *--*
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015
> Major in Computer Science
> www.whizkidztech.com | [hidden email]
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Tobias
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On 08/22/2012 12:18 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
>> > So my inclination is to push for deployment with a minimum of
>> > additional development work. But I'm not the target audience; my
>> > inclinations have to be weighed against the needs of the users.
>>
>> in the name of countless Wikipedians, who are struggeling with that
>> horrible Template/Magic word/ParserFunctions syntax, I say: thank you :)
>>
>> This page is dedicated to its victims:
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Church_of_emacs/Template_love
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tobias
>>
>>
>>
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