Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

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Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Yaron Koren-2
Hi everyone,

Since Cargo was launched a few weeks ago, one obvious question has been
whether discussions about it should go on this mailing list, and if not,
where they should go. But it's really just a more extreme case of a
question that has already existed for other extensions, extensions whose
user base roughly coincides with Semantic MediaWiki's, but which can also
be used with SMW. I would put the following extensions in that list, though
some belong on it more than others:

- Admin Links
- Arrays
- Data Transfer
- External Data
- Replace Text
- Header Tabs
- Widgets

And I suppose one would have to add Semantic Forms and its spinoff
extensions now, since as of a month ago SF can work without SMW installed.

Of these, the documentation for DT, ED and SF say to use this mailing list;
the HT documentation says to use the mediawiki-l mailing list; the Widgets
extension has its own mailing list; while the others don't have any mailing
list instructions.

I thought about a few possibilities:
- creating a new mailing list for Cargo
- creating a new "MediaWiki extensions" mailing list in some form, for all
of these extensions
- using the existing mediawiki-enterprise mailing list (currently very
low-traffic) for all of these

But my current inclination is to use the mediawiki-l mailing list. If
you're not familiar with this mailing list, or you're not on it, see here:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

My worry was that I didn't want to bother all the core MediaWiki developers
with posts related to these extensions; but looking through the archives,
it turned out that already a substantial fraction of the posts to that list
are about extensions. And it's not even that busy a mailing list; it seems
to get about five posts a day on average, which is actually less than
semediawiki-user does. Plus, I think many of the users of these extensions
are on mediawiki-l already, so it's one less list to have to join.

So my plan is to make mediawiki-l the official mailing list for all of
these extensions, including Cargo. And the Semantic Forms documentation
would tell people that they can use either of the two mailing lists;
although if they don't have SMW installed they should use mediawiki-l.

I don't know if this would count as a major change; I don't think so. In
any case, I look forward to any thoughts people might have.

-Yaron

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Re: Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Frank Baxmann
Hi Yaron,

my 2 cents to the smw vs cargo vs extensions topic...

I see a bulk of extensions including your list, cargo, smw
and a few more as a kind of "wiki framework". I am one of those
people who use cargo and smw...

As others here already talked about smw "IDE", the framework thought
is not so far away from it. So my idea would be to define some framework
base and make a list for this (which would still include smw & cargo...).
This would would also end the "religious" discussions of smw vs. cargo...
 From my framework few they are a perfect complement each other for
different
uses. And who knows maybe in future someone will add something like a
fine full text server (like Solr) to the framework....

Just an idea of a perspective to the topic...

Greetings

Frank


On 30.01.2015 17:37, Yaron Koren wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Since Cargo was launched a few weeks ago, one obvious question has been
> whether discussions about it should go on this mailing list, and if not,
> where they should go. But it's really just a more extreme case of a
> question that has already existed for other extensions, extensions whose
> user base roughly coincides with Semantic MediaWiki's, but which can also
> be used with SMW. I would put the following extensions in that list, though
> some belong on it more than others:
>
> - Admin Links
> - Arrays
> - Data Transfer
> - External Data
> - Replace Text
> - Header Tabs
> - Widgets
>
> And I suppose one would have to add Semantic Forms and its spinoff
> extensions now, since as of a month ago SF can work without SMW installed.
>
> Of these, the documentation for DT, ED and SF say to use this mailing list;
> the HT documentation says to use the mediawiki-l mailing list; the Widgets
> extension has its own mailing list; while the others don't have any mailing
> list instructions.
>
> I thought about a few possibilities:
> - creating a new mailing list for Cargo
> - creating a new "MediaWiki extensions" mailing list in some form, for all
> of these extensions
> - using the existing mediawiki-enterprise mailing list (currently very
> low-traffic) for all of these
>
> But my current inclination is to use the mediawiki-l mailing list. If
> you're not familiar with this mailing list, or you're not on it, see here:
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
> My worry was that I didn't want to bother all the core MediaWiki developers
> with posts related to these extensions; but looking through the archives,
> it turned out that already a substantial fraction of the posts to that list
> are about extensions. And it's not even that busy a mailing list; it seems
> to get about five posts a day on average, which is actually less than
> semediawiki-user does. Plus, I think many of the users of these extensions
> are on mediawiki-l already, so it's one less list to have to join.
>
> So my plan is to make mediawiki-l the official mailing list for all of
> these extensions, including Cargo. And the Semantic Forms documentation
> would tell people that they can use either of the two mailing lists;
> although if they don't have SMW installed they should use mediawiki-l.
>
> I don't know if this would count as a major change; I don't think so. In
> any case, I look forward to any thoughts people might have.
>
> -Yaron
>


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Re: Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Joel Natividad
Hi Yaron,
You may also want to look into using discourse.org.  I know its mainly
known as a forum system, but it can be implemented as a mailing list as
well.

The beauty of it is that you can create categories and assign
category-specific email addresses at will - e.g.
[hidden email] is the generic mailbox for the whole forum and
[hidden email], [hidden email], [hidden email] will
go to their respective categories automatically, and users can subscribe to
those categories and they can get traditional emails/digests, and even
reply to those emails and it will be automatically reflected in discourse.

For reference, see how mozilla is using it -
https://discourse.mozilla-community.org.

They're actively encouraging mailing list users to move to it -
https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/t/rolling-out-email-addresses-for-categories/920

Discourse also has tagging, oneboxing (turn URLs to web previews), search,
pinning, liking, etc. that allows you to convert discussions into a KB of
sorts, instead of just relying on Google hit-and-miss searches to go thru
mailing-list archives.

FYI, we've been playing with discourse ourselves as we plan to bundle it
into our open data offering - CKAN with integrated discourse discussions
around datasets.  The first implementation will be live later this month,
and I'll be sure to send you a link once its up.

Best,
Joel

=======================================================
Think Different! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_different#Text)
Imagine Different! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5tOgRD4EqY)

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Frank Baxmann <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Yaron,
>
> my 2 cents to the smw vs cargo vs extensions topic...
>
> I see a bulk of extensions including your list, cargo, smw
> and a few more as a kind of "wiki framework". I am one of those
> people who use cargo and smw...
>
> As others here already talked about smw "IDE", the framework thought
> is not so far away from it. So my idea would be to define some framework
> base and make a list for this (which would still include smw & cargo...).
> This would would also end the "religious" discussions of smw vs. cargo...
>  From my framework few they are a perfect complement each other for
> different
> uses. And who knows maybe in future someone will add something like a
> fine full text server (like Solr) to the framework....
>
> Just an idea of a perspective to the topic...
>
> Greetings
>
> Frank
>
>
> On 30.01.2015 17:37, Yaron Koren wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Since Cargo was launched a few weeks ago, one obvious question has been
> > whether discussions about it should go on this mailing list, and if not,
> > where they should go. But it's really just a more extreme case of a
> > question that has already existed for other extensions, extensions whose
> > user base roughly coincides with Semantic MediaWiki's, but which can also
> > be used with SMW. I would put the following extensions in that list,
> though
> > some belong on it more than others:
> >
> > - Admin Links
> > - Arrays
> > - Data Transfer
> > - External Data
> > - Replace Text
> > - Header Tabs
> > - Widgets
> >
> > And I suppose one would have to add Semantic Forms and its spinoff
> > extensions now, since as of a month ago SF can work without SMW
> installed.
> >
> > Of these, the documentation for DT, ED and SF say to use this mailing
> list;
> > the HT documentation says to use the mediawiki-l mailing list; the
> Widgets
> > extension has its own mailing list; while the others don't have any
> mailing
> > list instructions.
> >
> > I thought about a few possibilities:
> > - creating a new mailing list for Cargo
> > - creating a new "MediaWiki extensions" mailing list in some form, for
> all
> > of these extensions
> > - using the existing mediawiki-enterprise mailing list (currently very
> > low-traffic) for all of these
> >
> > But my current inclination is to use the mediawiki-l mailing list. If
> > you're not familiar with this mailing list, or you're not on it, see
> here:
> >
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
> > My worry was that I didn't want to bother all the core MediaWiki
> developers
> > with posts related to these extensions; but looking through the archives,
> > it turned out that already a substantial fraction of the posts to that
> list
> > are about extensions. And it's not even that busy a mailing list; it
> seems
> > to get about five posts a day on average, which is actually less than
> > semediawiki-user does. Plus, I think many of the users of these
> extensions
> > are on mediawiki-l already, so it's one less list to have to join.
> >
> > So my plan is to make mediawiki-l the official mailing list for all of
> > these extensions, including Cargo. And the Semantic Forms documentation
> > would tell people that they can use either of the two mailing lists;
> > although if they don't have SMW installed they should use mediawiki-l.
> >
> > I don't know if this would count as a major change; I don't think so. In
> > any case, I look forward to any thoughts people might have.
> >
> > -Yaron
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is
> your
> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>
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leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

kghbln
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
Heiya,

this mailing list is very generally spoken about adding, displaying and
retrieving data in an orderly manner with the help of functionality MW
core does not offer. So I feel that this list could handle extra Cargo.
Personally I would even accept DPL questions here.

Cheers Karsten


Am 30.01.2015 um 17:37 schrieb Yaron Koren:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Since Cargo was launched a few weeks ago, one obvious question has been
> whether discussions about it should go on this mailing list, and if not,
> where they should go. But it's really just a more extreme case of a
> question that has already existed for other extensions, extensions whose
> user base roughly coincides with Semantic MediaWiki's, but which can also
> be used with SMW. I would put the following extensions in that list, though
> some belong on it more than others:
>
> - Admin Links
> - Arrays
> - Data Transfer
> - External Data
> - Replace Text
> - Header Tabs
> - Widgets
>
> And I suppose one would have to add Semantic Forms and its spinoff
> extensions now, since as of a month ago SF can work without SMW installed.
>
> Of these, the documentation for DT, ED and SF say to use this mailing list;
> the HT documentation says to use the mediawiki-l mailing list; the Widgets
> extension has its own mailing list; while the others don't have any mailing
> list instructions.
>
> I thought about a few possibilities:
> - creating a new mailing list for Cargo
> - creating a new "MediaWiki extensions" mailing list in some form, for all
> of these extensions
> - using the existing mediawiki-enterprise mailing list (currently very
> low-traffic) for all of these
>
> But my current inclination is to use the mediawiki-l mailing list. If
> you're not familiar with this mailing list, or you're not on it, see here:
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
> My worry was that I didn't want to bother all the core MediaWiki developers
> with posts related to these extensions; but looking through the archives,
> it turned out that already a substantial fraction of the posts to that list
> are about extensions. And it's not even that busy a mailing list; it seems
> to get about five posts a day on average, which is actually less than
> semediawiki-user does. Plus, I think many of the users of these extensions
> are on mediawiki-l already, so it's one less list to have to join.
>
> So my plan is to make mediawiki-l the official mailing list for all of
> these extensions, including Cargo. And the Semantic Forms documentation
> would tell people that they can use either of the two mailing lists;
> although if they don't have SMW installed they should use mediawiki-l.
>
> I don't know if this would count as a major change; I don't think so. In
> any case, I look forward to any thoughts people might have.
>
> -Yaron
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Schneider, Martin
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
I think that the discussion about Cargo and SMW-related extensions should remain in the SMW users mailing list.

For one, this list has also not much traffic.
And at least the topics discussed here are similar/partly overlapping for SMW and Cargo.

I don't think that it is a good idea to move to mediawiki-l because the focus on SMW-related topics is missing.

Best regards,
Martin

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Yaron Koren [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Januar 2015 17:38
An: Semantic MediaWiki users
Betreff: [Semediawiki-user] Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Hi everyone,

Since Cargo was launched a few weeks ago, one obvious question has been whether discussions about it should go on this mailing list, and if not, where they should go. But it's really just a more extreme case of a question that has already existed for other extensions, extensions whose user base roughly coincides with Semantic MediaWiki's, but which can also be used with SMW. I would put the following extensions in that list, though some belong on it more than others:

- Admin Links
- Arrays
- Data Transfer
- External Data
- Replace Text
- Header Tabs
- Widgets

And I suppose one would have to add Semantic Forms and its spinoff extensions now, since as of a month ago SF can work without SMW installed.

Of these, the documentation for DT, ED and SF say to use this mailing list; the HT documentation says to use the mediawiki-l mailing list; the Widgets extension has its own mailing list; while the others don't have any mailing list instructions.

I thought about a few possibilities:
- creating a new mailing list for Cargo
- creating a new "MediaWiki extensions" mailing list in some form, for all of these extensions
- using the existing mediawiki-enterprise mailing list (currently very
low-traffic) for all of these

But my current inclination is to use the mediawiki-l mailing list. If you're not familiar with this mailing list, or you're not on it, see here:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

My worry was that I didn't want to bother all the core MediaWiki developers with posts related to these extensions; but looking through the archives, it turned out that already a substantial fraction of the posts to that list are about extensions. And it's not even that busy a mailing list; it seems to get about five posts a day on average, which is actually less than semediawiki-user does. Plus, I think many of the users of these extensions are on mediawiki-l already, so it's one less list to have to join.

So my plan is to make mediawiki-l the official mailing list for all of these extensions, including Cargo. And the Semantic Forms documentation would tell people that they can use either of the two mailing lists; although if they don't have SMW installed they should use mediawiki-l.

I don't know if this would count as a major change; I don't think so. In any case, I look forward to any thoughts people might have.

-Yaron

--
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Re: Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Koerner, Chris L
I agree with Martin and others. Leave it here. While the literal intention of the SMW mailing list is to discuss the software called Semantic MediaWiki, I think a reputable amount of conversation is also around the idea of semantic mediawiki - wikis and their use of semantic data.

-Chris K.
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Re: Mailing list handling for the "quasi-SMW" extensions

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

Well, that's four votes in favor of having discussions on this mailing list
(and Karsten, I see what you did there with the "extra Cargo" thing!), one
vote for creating a new super-mailing list for SMW and everything else, and
one vote for creating a whole forum/bulletin board system for Cargo and
maybe other software. And interestingly, no votes for my original idea of
putting everything on the mediawiki-l mailing list.

I would think moving everyone off of this mailing list is a non-starter
(although there are certainly valid reasons for a new superset mailing
list, given that officially this is still just an SMW list, even if
unofficially it has become more than that), and I don't want to create a
new mailing list, let alone a whole forum system, just for Cargo, so I
guess the consensus, if one exists, is for directing Cargo users to this
mailing list.

I'm still skeptical about the idea, though, first because there may be
people who don't want discussions about Cargo on this list but don't feel
comfortable saying it; and second because it might lead to unnecessary
drama. Although maybe the second worry is overblown; after all, we managed
to get through the whole SMW-vs.-SMW+ saga without too many hurt feelings,
if I remember correctly.

Anyway, in the spirit of compromise, I've decided to have both
semediawiki-user and mediawiki-l as possible mailing lists for Cargo users:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cargo/Getting_support

I added the same thing to the Semantic Forms and External Data
documentation pages.

This should also reduce the need to join a new mailing list for many
people; they can stick with whatever list they're already on. I would be
surprised if either mailing list gets a significant number of Cargo-related
posts any time soon, though.

-Yaron
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