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Main Page Featured Article

NSLE (Wikipedia)
I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images into
transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting this
to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to it.
The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
and protecting every single template on TFA (including
transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?

--NSLE
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

James Hare
We should be locking the meta templates -- the kind that won't be changing
anytime soon and if there's vandalism it'd be awful.

On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images
> into
> transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting
> this
> to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to
> it.
> The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
> and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
>
> --NSLE
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

NSLE (Wikipedia)
Yeah, the problem extends beyond the TFA due to the widespread use of these
vandalised templates...

On 19/12/06, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> We should be locking the meta templates -- the kind that won't be changing
> anytime soon and if there's vandalism it'd be awful.
>
> On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> > with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images
> > into
> > transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting
> > this
> > to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> > extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to
> > it.
> > The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload
> them,
> > and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> > transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> > suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> > re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
> >
> > --NSLE
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Rory Stolzenberg
On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Yeah, the problem extends beyond the TFA due to the widespread use of
> these
> vandalised templates...
>
> On 19/12/06, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > We should be locking the meta templates -- the kind that won't be
> changing
> > anytime soon and if there's vandalism it'd be awful.
> >
> > On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been
> having
> > > with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images
> > > into
> > > transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting
> > > this
> > > to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> > > extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution
> to
> > > it.
> > > The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload
> > them,
> > > and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> > > transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> > > suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA
> (and
> > > re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any
> solution?
> > >
> > > --NSLE
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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>

I think Messed is saying that these templates should be protected anyway.
The fact that they're in FAs isn't really relevant, if anything their being
vandalized is just drawing our attention to the fact that they should be
protected.
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

NSLE (Wikipedia)
In reply to this post by NSLE (Wikipedia)
For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Main_page_vandal_out_of_controlis
the latest discussion - there've been eight (nine?) previous ones.

On 19/12/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images into
> transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting this
> to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to it.
> The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
> and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
>
> --NSLE
>
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Kirill Lokshin
In reply to this post by NSLE (Wikipedia)
On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images into
> transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting this
> to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to it.
> The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
> and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?

Wait, is this vandalism happening on templates transcluded into the
full article, or just the TFA blurb that's displayed on the main page?

--
Kirill Lokshin
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

XaosFluX
In reply to this post by James Hare
The highly used meta templates should just be moved to {{hprotected}},
[[Category:Wikipedia protected edit requests]] never seems to have that much
of a backlog if legit updates are needed.  (e.g. I just added {{for}} to
hprot).

X


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Hare" <[hidden email]>
To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Main Page Featured Article


> We should be locking the meta templates -- the kind that won't be changing
> anytime soon and if there's vandalism it'd be awful.
>
> On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
>> with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images
>> into
>> transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting
>> this
>> to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
>> extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to
>> it.
>> The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
>> and protecting every single template on TFA (including
>> transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
>> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
>> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
>>
>> --NSLE
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l 

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Re: Main Page Featured Article

NSLE (Wikipedia)
In reply to this post by Kirill Lokshin
Full article.

On 19/12/06, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 12/18/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> > with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images
> into
> > transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting
> this
> > to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> > extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to
> it.
> > The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload
> them,
> > and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> > transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> > suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> > re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
>
> Wait, is this vandalism happening on templates transcluded into the
> full article, or just the TFA blurb that's displayed on the main page?
>
> --
> Kirill Lokshin
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Steve Summit
In reply to this post by NSLE (Wikipedia)
NSLE wrote:
> ...problems we've been having with the TFA each day on the main
> page (vandals inserting shock images into transcluded-on-transcluded
> templates).

[This is armchair speculation by a reader who is not as expert in
these matters as he might be; apologies if I'm completely off-base.]

If nothing else, this indicates another reason why nested-
transclusion is problematic, and why complexity like this ought
perhaps to be avoided.  (But of course this observation does
nothing to solve the current problem.)

This strikes me as a problem that might be amenable to a
technical solution.  Perhaps we need some new, more-stringent
form of protection which is automatically honored not only by
the protected page, but by any other content which it includes,
transcludes, or otherwise references.  Or, perhaps there should
be a "recursive protect" button, which applies (normal) protection
to every page included by a given page.

(I don't know enough about how the various inclusion mechanisms
are implemented to be able to say how easy or hard either of
these solutions might be, but I suspect they wouldn't be
impossible.)

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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Jordan Turner
What disturbs me about the vandalism on the Main Page articles is the
fact that the vandals don't appear to be drive-by vandals, but rather
users who know who to use the right tags and summaries to mask their
activities and inflict the most damage. Not to be the pessimist here,
but we're clearly dealing with a professional vandal who knows how to
beat the system. We need to take action against this person in
particular, if that is possible, because once we block one avenue,
(s)he'll just find another.

-- Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu-

Steve Summit wrote:

> NSLE wrote:
>  
>> ...problems we've been having with the TFA each day on the main
>> page (vandals inserting shock images into transcluded-on-transcluded
>> templates).
>>    
>
> [This is armchair speculation by a reader who is not as expert in
> these matters as he might be; apologies if I'm completely off-base.]
>
> If nothing else, this indicates another reason why nested-
> transclusion is problematic, and why complexity like this ought
> perhaps to be avoided.  (But of course this observation does
> nothing to solve the current problem.)
>
> This strikes me as a problem that might be amenable to a
> technical solution.  Perhaps we need some new, more-stringent
> form of protection which is automatically honored not only by
> the protected page, but by any other content which it includes,
> transcludes, or otherwise references.  Or, perhaps there should
> be a "recursive protect" button, which applies (normal) protection
> to every page included by a given page.
>
> (I don't know enough about how the various inclusion mechanisms
> are implemented to be able to say how easy or hard either of
> these solutions might be, but I suspect they wouldn't be
> impossible.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>  


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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Luna-4
On 12/18/06, Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu- <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What disturbs me about the vandalism on the Main Page articles is the
> fact that the vandals don't appear to be drive-by vandals, but rather
> users who know who to use the right tags and summaries to mask their
> activities and inflict the most damage. Not to be the pessimist here,
> but we're clearly dealing with a professional vandal who knows how to
> beat the system. We need to take action against this person in
> particular, if that is possible, because once we block one avenue,
> (s)he'll just find another.


Along those lines, we need to remember checkuser -- they can't review and
block the source, if we don't let them know which usernames to check. The
usual "block and move on" mentality won't quite cut it, in this case;
there's an ongoing section at RFCU about all of this, and unfortunately the
checkusers can't see everything.

Rangeblocks have been slowing it down, but have not yet stopped it. We need
to explore new options, including protection options for templates.

As far as templates on TFA, is there consensus as to whether they should be
semi or fully protected? We're obviously dealing with somebody smart enough
to start using sleeper accounts, is what I figure, but I'm not sure how much
they've done so, yet.

Eh. This one is incredibly frustrating, to me.

-Luna
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Jordan Turner
I think fully protecting templates on Main Page related articles has
become the norm. See {{mprotected}} and the category linked from the
template page.

-- Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu-

Luna wrote:

> On 12/18/06, Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu- <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> What disturbs me about the vandalism on the Main Page articles is the
>> fact that the vandals don't appear to be drive-by vandals, but rather
>> users who know who to use the right tags and summaries to mask their
>> activities and inflict the most damage. Not to be the pessimist here,
>> but we're clearly dealing with a professional vandal who knows how to
>> beat the system. We need to take action against this person in
>> particular, if that is possible, because once we block one avenue,
>> (s)he'll just find another.
>>    
>
>
> Along those lines, we need to remember checkuser -- they can't review and
> block the source, if we don't let them know which usernames to check. The
> usual "block and move on" mentality won't quite cut it, in this case;
> there's an ongoing section at RFCU about all of this, and unfortunately the
> checkusers can't see everything.
>
> Rangeblocks have been slowing it down, but have not yet stopped it. We need
> to explore new options, including protection options for templates.
>
> As far as templates on TFA, is there consensus as to whether they should be
> semi or fully protected? We're obviously dealing with somebody smart enough
> to start using sleeper accounts, is what I figure, but I'm not sure how much
> they've done so, yet.
>
> Eh. This one is incredibly frustrating, to me.
>
> -Luna
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>  


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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Stephen Bain
In reply to this post by Luna-4
On 12/19/06, Luna <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As far as templates on TFA, is there consensus as to whether they should be
> semi or fully protected? We're obviously dealing with somebody smart enough
> to start using sleeper accounts, is what I figure, but I'm not sure how much
> they've done so, yet.

Full protection, obviously. The incident last week where such
vandalism was on the main page for fifteen minutes until it was found
was by an established account, semi-protection wouldn't have stopped
it; indeed the template that was affected *was* semi-protected at the
time the vandalism occurred.

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Jordan Turner
Stephen --

The policy dictating the protection of templates and images directly on
the Main Page is long-standing. Luna was referring to the templates on
Today's Featured Article itself; the protection of images / templates on
that article is a relatively new thing.

-- Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu-

Stephen Bain wrote:

> On 12/19/06, Luna <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> As far as templates on TFA, is there consensus as to whether they should be
>> semi or fully protected? We're obviously dealing with somebody smart enough
>> to start using sleeper accounts, is what I figure, but I'm not sure how much
>> they've done so, yet.
>>    
>
> Full protection, obviously. The incident last week where such
> vandalism was on the main page for fifteen minutes until it was found
> was by an established account, semi-protection wouldn't have stopped
> it; indeed the template that was affected *was* semi-protected at the
> time the vandalism occurred.
>
>  


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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by NSLE (Wikipedia)
On 12/19/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images into
> transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting this
> to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to it.
> The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
> and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?

Every type of vandalism goes away if we can implement a short delay
before the page goes "live". Allow rollbacks/undos to be carried out
on non-live versions of the page, and edits should also always be
performed on the newest version.

The problem is not vandalism in itself. The problem is that our
timeframe for reacting to vandalism is zero. Any act of vandalism is
instantly visible to the entire world. Even a short delay of 2 minutes
would drastically reduce the incentive for vandals and their impact
even if successful.

Steve
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Stephen Bain
In reply to this post by Jordan Turner
On 12/19/06, Tariq Ab- Jo- Tu- <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The policy dictating the protection of templates and images directly on
> the Main Page is long-standing. Luna was referring to the templates on
> Today's Featured Article itself; the protection of images / templates on
> that article is a relatively new thing.

Of course, what I was intending to convey is that the type of
vandalism we're seeing lately (using more complicated tricks of
wikisyntax), of which that main page template vandalism was the
clearest example, isn't something that can be defeated by
semi-protection.

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
On 12/18/06, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 12/19/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
> > with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images
> into
> > transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting
> this
> > to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
> > extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to
> it.
> > The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload
> them,
> > and protecting every single template on TFA (including
> > transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
> > suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> > re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
>
> Every type of vandalism goes away if we can implement a short delay
> before the page goes "live". Allow rollbacks/undos to be carried out
> on non-live versions of the page, and edits should also always be
> performed on the newest version.
>
> The problem is not vandalism in itself. The problem is that our
> timeframe for reacting to vandalism is zero. Any act of vandalism is
> instantly visible to the entire world. Even a short delay of 2 minutes
> would drastically reduce the incentive for vandals and their impact
> even if successful.
>
> Steve



That is not an in-wiki fix for the problem.  While I agree that it would be
useful, major modifications to MediaWiki are outside the immediate tactical
scope... Unless you know PHP a lot more fluently than I do and have commit
access to the source ;-)


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Steve Bennett-8
Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 12/19/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I assume most of the list's readers know what problems we've been having
>> with the TFA each day on the main page (vandals inserting shock images into
>> transcluded-on-transcluded templates). In case some don't, I'm posting this
>> to see if anyone has ideas off how to avoid this. It's been discussed
>> extensively on ANI, and there does not seem to be a workable solution to it.
>> The images are being uploaded by sleeper socks old enough to upload them,
>> and protecting every single template on TFA (including
>> transcluded-on-transcluded ones) can be tedious for the admins. I've
>> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
>> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?
>
> Every type of vandalism goes away if we can implement a short delay
> before the page goes "live". Allow rollbacks/undos to be carried out
> on non-live versions of the page, and edits should also always be
> performed on the newest version.
>
You're wrong. Subtle vandalism isn't prevented by a time delay.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Steve Bennett-8
On 12/19/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You're wrong. Subtle vandalism isn't prevented by a time delay.

Yeah, I didn't read closely enough. Although, come to think of it, the
issue is basically the same:

Page A indirectly transcludes page X. User U can't modify page A, but
can modify X. Modifying X instantly modifies the appearance of A: big
problem.

If there was a time delay between when the change was made to X and
when the change appeared on A, there would be time to react. One way
to do that might be to "freeze" all the templates that appear in A,
perhaps by cloning them (with subst) to protected copies of
themselves. Or perhaps by hacking the page caching code? Maybe give
some trusted user the ability to control when the rendered view of the
page is updated?

It seems pointless to me to attempt to somehow predict or track down
vandals who are obviously pretty cluey and determined. Much better to
focus our efforts on reducing the effectiveness of vandalism in
general.

Oh, one last thought: if the major is problem is certain bad images,
would there be any way of tagging those images so that they simply
could not be displayed on the main page (or other designated page)?
Regardless of how many layers of transclusion? This might have to be
right at the web server level...?

Steve
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Re: Main Page Featured Article

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by NSLE (Wikipedia)
On 12/19/06, NSLE (Wikipedia) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've
> suggested perhaps substituting the templates before they become TFA (and
> re-transcluding after), but do the other list readers have any solution?

Recursive protection that applies to local images and templates should
do the trick. It would have to connect the protections to each other
(e.g. by using a shared protection ID) so that they can all be
unprotected together as well. You might want to raise this on
wikitech-l, or file a request on BugZilla.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.
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