[MediaWiki-l] Introducing: Professional.Wiki

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[MediaWiki-l] Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Professional.Wiki
Hello everyone,


We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>.


Professional.Wiki's mission is to provide customer-focused wiki services
that are both holistic and of high quality. Because of our strong
involvement in the MediaWiki and Semantic MediaWiki worlds over the last
ten years, we can provide a unique set of professional services to
companies that have a wiki or want to use one.


Our services <https://professional.wiki/en/services>cover all your wiki
needs, including wiki hosting <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>,
wiki setup and creation, wiki management, training, advice, professional
support and custom development.


To celebrate our launch we provide a limited time discount on our
hosting plans. Contact us <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>before
May 20th, 2019 to get a 20% discount on one of our hosting plans. All
our hosting plans <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>include free
professional support and Semantic MediaWiki.


Subscribe to our mailing list <http://professional.wiki/en/newsletter>to
receive tips and tricks, wiki news and exclusive promotions. Please also
follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/ProWikiExperts>.


We will remain involved in the community, contributing to the software,
documentation and discourse. Indeed, we hope to introduce more companies
to the wonders of wikis and thus strengthen both the community and
software.


For more information, please visit our website Professional.Wiki
<http://professional.wiki/>or contact us
<https://professional.wiki/en/contact>.


Karsten and Jeroen


--

Professional.Wiki – Jeroen De Dauw & Karsten Hoffmeyer GbR

Tieckstraße 24-25, 10115 Berlin

+49 (30) 55 87 42 65

[hidden email]

https://professional.wiki/

USt-IdNr. DE322440293


_______________________________________________
MediaWiki-l mailing list
To unsubscribe, go to:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Amanda Quad
Hello,
Thank you for informing us of your service. However, the MediaWiki mailing list is NOT a free advertising platform (at least its not supposed to be), and therefore messages like this are considered spam and may or may not be accepted in the future.
-- Amanda


On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 4:07 PM, Professional.Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello everyone,


We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>.


Professional.Wiki's mission is to provide customer-focused wiki services
that are both holistic and of high quality. Because of our strong
involvement in the MediaWiki and Semantic MediaWiki worlds over the last
ten years, we can provide a unique set of professional services to
companies that have a wiki or want to use one.


Our services <https://professional.wiki/en/services>cover all your wiki
needs, including wiki hosting <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>,
wiki setup and creation, wiki management, training, advice, professional
support and custom development.


To celebrate our launch we provide a limited time discount on our
hosting plans. Contact us <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>before
May 20th, 2019 to get a 20% discount on one of our hosting plans. All
our hosting plans <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>include free
professional support and Semantic MediaWiki.


Subscribe to our mailing list <http://professional.wiki/en/newsletter>to
receive tips and tricks, wiki news and exclusive promotions. Please also
follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/ProWikiExperts>.


We will remain involved in the community, contributing to the software,
documentation and discourse. Indeed, we hope to introduce more companies
to the wonders of wikis and thus strengthen both the community and
software.


For more information, please visit our website Professional.Wiki
<http://professional.wiki/>or contact us
<https://professional.wiki/en/contact>.


Karsten and Jeroen


--

Professional.Wiki – Jeroen De Dauw & Karsten Hoffmeyer GbR

Tieckstraße 24-25, 10115 Berlin

+49 (30) 55 87 42 65

[hidden email]

https://professional.wiki/

USt-IdNr. DE322440293
_______________________________________________
MediaWiki-l mailing list
To unsubscribe, go to:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l



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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Pine W
In reply to this post by Professional.Wiki
This seems to me to be an advertisement for commercial services that was
sent to a mailing list that is operated by a nonprofit and is intended for
MediaWiki system administrators. The description if the mailing list is
"This is a multilingual list for help/support with running/configuring
MediaWiki. It is intended for people who are running wikis with the
MediaWiki software and for announcements of new versions, bug fixes, and
security issues." It seems to me that advertising commercial services here
is well outside of the intended purposes of this list, and is a misuse of
Wikimedia Foundation resources.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )




On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:07 Professional.Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
>
> We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
> Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>.
>
>
> Professional.Wiki's mission is to provide customer-focused wiki services
> that are both holistic and of high quality. Because of our strong
> involvement in the MediaWiki and Semantic MediaWiki worlds over the last
> ten years, we can provide a unique set of professional services to
> companies that have a wiki or want to use one.
>
>
> Our services <https://professional.wiki/en/services>cover all your wiki
> needs, including wiki hosting <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>,
> wiki setup and creation, wiki management, training, advice, professional
> support and custom development.
>
>
> To celebrate our launch we provide a limited time discount on our
> hosting plans. Contact us <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>before
> May 20th, 2019 to get a 20% discount on one of our hosting plans. All
> our hosting plans <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>include free
> professional support and Semantic MediaWiki.
>
>
> Subscribe to our mailing list <http://professional.wiki/en/newsletter>to
> receive tips and tricks, wiki news and exclusive promotions. Please also
> follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/ProWikiExperts>.
>
>
> We will remain involved in the community, contributing to the software,
> documentation and discourse. Indeed, we hope to introduce more companies
> to the wonders of wikis and thus strengthen both the community and
> software.
>
>
> For more information, please visit our website Professional.Wiki
> <http://professional.wiki/>or contact us
> <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>.
>
>
> Karsten and Jeroen
>
>
> --
>
> Professional.Wiki – Jeroen De Dauw & Karsten Hoffmeyer GbR
>
> Tieckstraße 24-25, 10115 Berlin
>
> +49 (30) 55 87 42 65
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://professional.wiki/
>
> USt-IdNr. DE322440293
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

At the risk of starting an unnecessary argument, let me say that I think
this kind of email is fine. Paid support is a form of help/support, so even
though the mailing list description doesn't specifically list consulting as
one of the allowed topics, it seems to me that it fits within the "spirit
of the law", if not the letter (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law). Of course,
spamming the list is never a good idea, but a single email sent to announce
a new consulting company seems fine - and, of course, potentially useful to
people looking for help.

(Full disclosure: I too am a consultant. And I know Jeroen and Karsten.)

-Yaron

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 4:41 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This seems to me to be an advertisement for commercial services that was
> sent to a mailing list that is operated by a nonprofit and is intended for
> MediaWiki system administrators. The description if the mailing list is
> "This is a multilingual list for help/support with running/configuring
> MediaWiki. It is intended for people who are running wikis with the
> MediaWiki software and for announcements of new versions, bug fixes, and
> security issues." It seems to me that advertising commercial services here
> is well outside of the intended purposes of this list, and is a misuse of
> Wikimedia Foundation resources.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:07 Professional.Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> > We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
> > Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>.
> >
> >
> > Professional.Wiki's mission is to provide customer-focused wiki services
> > that are both holistic and of high quality. Because of our strong
> > involvement in the MediaWiki and Semantic MediaWiki worlds over the last
> > ten years, we can provide a unique set of professional services to
> > companies that have a wiki or want to use one.
> >
> >
> > Our services <https://professional.wiki/en/services>cover all your wiki
> > needs, including wiki hosting <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>,
> > wiki setup and creation, wiki management, training, advice, professional
> > support and custom development.
> >
> >
> > To celebrate our launch we provide a limited time discount on our
> > hosting plans. Contact us <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>before
> > May 20th, 2019 to get a 20% discount on one of our hosting plans. All
> > our hosting plans <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>include free
> > professional support and Semantic MediaWiki.
> >
> >
> > Subscribe to our mailing list <http://professional.wiki/en/newsletter>to
> > receive tips and tricks, wiki news and exclusive promotions. Please also
> > follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/ProWikiExperts>.
> >
> >
> > We will remain involved in the community, contributing to the software,
> > documentation and discourse. Indeed, we hope to introduce more companies
> > to the wonders of wikis and thus strengthen both the community and
> > software.
> >
> >
> > For more information, please visit our website Professional.Wiki
> > <http://professional.wiki/>or contact us
> > <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>.
> >
> >
> > Karsten and Jeroen
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Professional.Wiki – Jeroen De Dauw & Karsten Hoffmeyer GbR
> >
> > Tieckstraße 24-25, 10115 Berlin
> >
> > +49 (30) 55 87 42 65
> >
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > https://professional.wiki/
> >
> > USt-IdNr. DE322440293
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>


--
WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Brian Wolff
Fwiw, Im of the opinion that its borderline but ok.

I would be annoyed if there was subsequent advertisements for this service.
Or if there were a lot of these types of messages on this list. But an
initial announcement of a new wiki hosting service with wide applicability
that is being run by people well known in the mediawiki ecosystem seems ok
to me for this list.

--
Brian

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> At the risk of starting an unnecessary argument, let me say that I think
> this kind of email is fine. Paid support is a form of help/support, so even
> though the mailing list description doesn't specifically list consulting as
> one of the allowed topics, it seems to me that it fits within the "spirit
> of the law", if not the letter (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law). Of course,
> spamming the list is never a good idea, but a single email sent to announce
> a new consulting company seems fine - and, of course, potentially useful to
> people looking for help.
>
> (Full disclosure: I too am a consultant. And I know Jeroen and Karsten.)
>
> -Yaron
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 4:41 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > This seems to me to be an advertisement for commercial services that was
> > sent to a mailing list that is operated by a nonprofit and is intended
> for
> > MediaWiki system administrators. The description if the mailing list is
> > "This is a multilingual list for help/support with running/configuring
> > MediaWiki. It is intended for people who are running wikis with the
> > MediaWiki software and for announcements of new versions, bug fixes, and
> > security issues." It seems to me that advertising commercial services
> here
> > is well outside of the intended purposes of this list, and is a misuse of
> > Wikimedia Foundation resources.
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:07 Professional.Wiki <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > >
> > > We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
> > > Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>.
> > >
> > >
> > > Professional.Wiki's mission is to provide customer-focused wiki
> services
> > > that are both holistic and of high quality. Because of our strong
> > > involvement in the MediaWiki and Semantic MediaWiki worlds over the
> last
> > > ten years, we can provide a unique set of professional services to
> > > companies that have a wiki or want to use one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Our services <https://professional.wiki/en/services>cover all your
> wiki
> > > needs, including wiki hosting <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>,
> > > wiki setup and creation, wiki management, training, advice,
> professional
> > > support and custom development.
> > >
> > >
> > > To celebrate our launch we provide a limited time discount on our
> > > hosting plans. Contact us <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>before
> > > May 20th, 2019 to get a 20% discount on one of our hosting plans. All
> > > our hosting plans <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>include free
> > > professional support and Semantic MediaWiki.
> > >
> > >
> > > Subscribe to our mailing list <http://professional.wiki/en/newsletter
> >to
> > > receive tips and tricks, wiki news and exclusive promotions. Please
> also
> > > follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/ProWikiExperts>.
> > >
> > >
> > > We will remain involved in the community, contributing to the software,
> > > documentation and discourse. Indeed, we hope to introduce more
> companies
> > > to the wonders of wikis and thus strengthen both the community and
> > > software.
> > >
> > >
> > > For more information, please visit our website Professional.Wiki
> > > <http://professional.wiki/>or contact us
> > > <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>.
> > >
> > >
> > > Karsten and Jeroen
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Professional.Wiki – Jeroen De Dauw & Karsten Hoffmeyer GbR
> > >
> > > Tieckstraße 24-25, 10115 Berlin
> > >
> > > +49 (30) 55 87 42 65
> > >
> > > [hidden email]
> > >
> > > https://professional.wiki/
> > >
> > > USt-IdNr. DE322440293
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
>
>
> --
> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Tom Hutchison
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
Thanks Yaron

I totally agree with you and do not wish this to escalate. Spamming the list is not good, however, the use of the list to make a one-off announcement of help/support services of two well known contributors to the community should not be associated as spam in any way. Not only do I agree the post fits within the "spirit of the law", I will add these two gentlemen enhance the "MediaWiki contributor spirit" by their interactions with others in the MediaWiki community.

Karsten, one of the hardest working, MediaWiki promoting, helpful contributors to be found in the MediaWiki Community. He does more in a week than most do in a year editing pages on mediawiki.org and answering the talk page posts on Skins and Extensions. He has setup mail lists for developers on Wikimedia Foundation's lists and provides MediaWiki hosting to MediaWiki projects, eg. Skin demos to maintaining the site for the Widgets extension.

Jereon, Semantic MediaWiki developer, developer of lots of other highly useful and used extensions, need I say more?

Tom


-----Original Message-----
From: MediaWiki-l <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Yaron Koren
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2019 7:55 PM
To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [MediaWiki-l] Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Hi,

At the risk of starting an unnecessary argument, let me say that I think this kind of email is fine. Paid support is a form of help/support, so even though the mailing list description doesn't specifically list consulting as one of the allowed topics, it seems to me that it fits within the "spirit of the law", if not the letter ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law). Of course, spamming the list is never a good idea, but a single email sent to announce a new consulting company seems fine - and, of course, potentially useful to people looking for help.

(Full disclosure: I too am a consultant. And I know Jeroen and Karsten.)

-Yaron

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 4:41 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This seems to me to be an advertisement for commercial services that
> was sent to a mailing list that is operated by a nonprofit and is
> intended for MediaWiki system administrators. The description if the
> mailing list is "This is a multilingual list for help/support with
> running/configuring MediaWiki. It is intended for people who are
> running wikis with the MediaWiki software and for announcements of new
> versions, bug fixes, and security issues." It seems to me that
> advertising commercial services here is well outside of the intended
> purposes of this list, and is a misuse of Wikimedia Foundation resources.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2019, 13:07 Professional.Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> > We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
> > Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>.
> >
> >
> > Professional.Wiki's mission is to provide customer-focused wiki
> > services that are both holistic and of high quality. Because of our
> > strong involvement in the MediaWiki and Semantic MediaWiki worlds
> > over the last ten years, we can provide a unique set of professional
> > services to companies that have a wiki or want to use one.
> >
> >
> > Our services <https://professional.wiki/en/services>cover all your
> > wiki needs, including wiki hosting
> > <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>,
> > wiki setup and creation, wiki management, training, advice,
> > professional support and custom development.
> >
> >
> > To celebrate our launch we provide a limited time discount on our
> > hosting plans. Contact us
> > <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>before
> > May 20th, 2019 to get a 20% discount on one of our hosting plans.
> > All our hosting plans <https://professional.wiki/en/hosting>include
> > free professional support and Semantic MediaWiki.
> >
> >
> > Subscribe to our mailing list
> > <http://professional.wiki/en/newsletter>to
> > receive tips and tricks, wiki news and exclusive promotions. Please
> > also follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/ProWikiExperts>.
> >
> >
> > We will remain involved in the community, contributing to the
> > software, documentation and discourse. Indeed, we hope to introduce
> > more companies to the wonders of wikis and thus strengthen both the
> > community and software.
> >
> >
> > For more information, please visit our website Professional.Wiki
> > <http://professional.wiki/>or contact us
> > <https://professional.wiki/en/contact>.
> >
> >
> > Karsten and Jeroen
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Professional.Wiki – Jeroen De Dauw & Karsten Hoffmeyer GbR
> >
> > Tieckstraße 24-25, 10115 Berlin
> >
> > +49 (30) 55 87 42 65
> >
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > https://professional.wiki/
> >
> > USt-IdNr. DE322440293
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>


--
WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com _______________________________________________
MediaWiki-l mailing list
To unsubscribe, go to:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l


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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Pine W
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
The mailing list description says that the permitted types of announcements
are for "new versions, bug fixes, and security issues." Advertising of
commercial services is not included. Granted, the description does not
explicitly prohibit advertising. The absence of an explicit prohibition is
not sufficient for me to conclude that advertising a commercial hosting
service is OK to do. I think that permitting advertising is a bad idea 1.
with Wikimedia Foundation resources which are paid for by donors who are
told that their money will be used to support Wikipedia and its volunteers,
and 2. on a list that is used largely for technical communications. The
weighing of the factors that I have reviewed leads me to conclude that
advertising is prohibited here under current policy.

I am willing to ask WMF Legal for its opinion regarding the use of
Wikimedia Foundation mailing lists for advertising commercial hosting
services, but even if WMF Legal thinks that this is OK in terms of the
letter of the law, I don't think that it's consistent with the intentions
of donors or my understanding of the Wikimedia Foundation brand.

I am willing to make a formal proposal to add an explicit prohibition
against advertising on this list.


Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine
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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

K. Peachey-2
Continuing this is unrelated to the list thread, if you would like to
continue this discussion, please create a new thread with a descriptive
subject relating to your email.

On Thu, 9 May 2019, 3:57 pm Pine W, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The mailing list description says that the permitted types of announcements
> are for "new versions, bug fixes, and security issues." Advertising of
> commercial services is not included. Granted, the description does not
> explicitly prohibit advertising. The absence of an explicit prohibition is
> not sufficient for me to conclude that advertising a commercial hosting
> service is OK to do. I think that permitting advertising is a bad idea 1.
> with Wikimedia Foundation resources which are paid for by donors who are
> told that their money will be used to support Wikipedia and its volunteers,
> and 2. on a list that is used largely for technical communications. The
> weighing of the factors that I have reviewed leads me to conclude that
> advertising is prohibited here under current policy.
>
> I am willing to ask WMF Legal for its opinion regarding the use of
> Wikimedia Foundation mailing lists for advertising commercial hosting
> services, but even if WMF Legal thinks that this is OK in terms of the
> letter of the law, I don't think that it's consistent with the intentions
> of donors or my understanding of the Wikimedia Foundation brand.
>
> I am willing to make a formal proposal to add an explicit prohibition
> against advertising on this list.
>
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Andre Klapper-2
In reply to this post by Pine W
On Wed, 2019-05-08 at 22:57 -0700, Pine W wrote:
> I am willing to ask WMF Legal for its opinion regarding the use of
> Wikimedia Foundation mailing lists for advertising commercial hosting
> services, but even if WMF Legal thinks that this is OK in terms of the
> letter of the law, I don't think that it's consistent with the intentions
> of donors or my understanding of the Wikimedia Foundation brand.

Pine, I hope WMF Legal won't care and won't comment. They likely have
better things to spend time on than telling a community how they may or
may not define the scope of one of the community mailing lists.

As a general reminder,
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Professional_development_and_consulting
exists, is linked from the mediawiki.org frontpage, and welcomes edits
(which has already happened in this case).

andre
--
Andre Klapper | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/



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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

markus-2
In reply to this post by Professional.Wiki
Hi Karsten and Jeroen

> We are happy to announce the launch of our new wiki company:
> Professional.Wiki <https://professional.wiki/>

Good luck to yor new business!
And thanks for all you did do before - and after :-)

Bests, Markus

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Re: Introducing: Professional.Wiki

Jan Steinman-2
> From: Pine W <[hidden email]>
>
> The mailing list description says that the permitted types of announcements
> are for "new versions, bug fixes, and security issues." Advertising of
> commercial services is not included.

You do realize that, by making such a fuss, you're providing the new Professional.Wiki and their luminary founders with tonnes of free advertising, right?

And you do realize that, by making such a fuss in the very list you're fussing about, you are breaking the very rule you pillory others for breaking?

Although I run my own wiki and don't need professional hosting, I know this discussion has improved my impression of the new service.

And now, having taken this to the meta-meta level, I'll say no more. :-)

(the other) Jan


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