[MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers

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[MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers

Bill Traynor-2
I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to
a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any
best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?

I found Extension:WikiSync
(http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
like it's still developed.

I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?

Thanks
Bill

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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Daniel Renfro-3
Cheers Bill,

If both webservers are using a single database, then their data should be synchronized. What other things are you looking to synchronize?

You might want to look into setting up a distributed caching system (hint: use memcached [1].) This will share the cache amongst the webservers. You might also want to put the codebase on an NFS drive and mount it on each of the webservers. If you are looking into building a scalable MediaWiki installation, I would strongly advise taking a look into Puppet [2].  

\\daniel renfro

[1.] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Memcached
[2.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Traynor
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:09 PM
To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
Subject: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers

I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?

I found Extension:WikiSync
(http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look like it's still developed.

I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?

Thanks
Bill

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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Bill Traynor-2
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Daniel Renfro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Cheers Bill,
>
> If both webservers are using a single database, then their data should be synchronized. What other things are you looking to synchronize?

What about the files?  Specifically the images directory.

>
> You might want to look into setting up a distributed caching system (hint: use memcached [1].) This will share the cache amongst the webservers. You might also want to put the codebase on an NFS drive and mount it on each of the webservers. If you are looking into building a scalable MediaWiki installation, I would strongly advise taking a look into Puppet [2].
>

Thanks, this is great info.  Unfortunately, I don't have full control
over the environment, but I will make these suggestions.

> \\daniel renfro
>
> [1.] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Memcached
> [2.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Traynor
> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:09 PM
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> Subject: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers
>
> I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
>
> I found Extension:WikiSync
> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look like it's still developed.
>
> I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
>
> Thanks
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Daniel Renfro-3
OHYEAH, files!

I suggest mounting an NFS share on both webservers so they will write to the same place. If you're going to do this for images, I think it should be done for the entire MW installation. Then you never have to worry about each webserver being on a different version -- every webserver is serving up the same code.

\\daniel renfro


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Traynor
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:51 PM
To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
Subject: Re: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Daniel Renfro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Cheers Bill,
>
> If both webservers are using a single database, then their data should be synchronized. What other things are you looking to synchronize?

What about the files?  Specifically the images directory.

>
> You might want to look into setting up a distributed caching system (hint: use memcached [1].) This will share the cache amongst the webservers. You might also want to put the codebase on an NFS drive and mount it on each of the webservers. If you are looking into building a scalable MediaWiki installation, I would strongly advise taking a look into Puppet [2].
>

Thanks, this is great info.  Unfortunately, I don't have full control over the environment, but I will make these suggestions.

> \\daniel renfro
>
> [1.] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Memcached
> [2.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
> Traynor
> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:09 PM
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> Subject: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers
>
> I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
>
> I found Extension:WikiSync
> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look like it's still developed.
>
> I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
>
> Thanks
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Larry Silverman
If minimizing downtime is a concern, then you might not want to serve up
the code from a share. It's common in a load-balanced environment to take
one or more web servers out of rotation, upgrade their code, then
re-introduce them -- then take the other ones out, upgrade code, and bring
them back into the load balancer.

You do have a complication with mediawiki in that sometimes running the
update.php maintenance script will make changes to the database. Then you
have a split environment where some web servers can talk to the database
and others might throw errors on schema differences.

Can be tricky. Hopefully your use case is more simple and you can get away
with sharing the codebase.

Larry Silverman
Chief Technology Officer
TrackAbout, Inc.

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Daniel Renfro <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> OHYEAH, files!
>
> I suggest mounting an NFS share on both webservers so they will write to
> the same place. If you're going to do this for images, I think it should be
> done for the entire MW installation. Then you never have to worry about
> each webserver being on a different version -- every webserver is serving
> up the same code.
>
> \\daniel renfro
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Traynor
> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:51 PM
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> Subject: Re: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Daniel Renfro <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Cheers Bill,
> >
> > If both webservers are using a single database, then their data should
> be synchronized. What other things are you looking to synchronize?
>
> What about the files?  Specifically the images directory.
>
> >
> > You might want to look into setting up a distributed caching system
> (hint: use memcached [1].) This will share the cache amongst the
> webservers. You might also want to put the codebase on an NFS drive and
> mount it on each of the webservers. If you are looking into building a
> scalable MediaWiki installation, I would strongly advise taking a look into
> Puppet [2].
> >
>
> Thanks, this is great info.  Unfortunately, I don't have full control over
> the environment, but I will make these suggestions.
>
> > \\daniel renfro
> >
> > [1.] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Memcached
> > [2.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
> > Traynor
> > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:09 PM
> > To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> > Subject: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers
> >
> > I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to a
> 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any best
> practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
> >
> > I found Extension:WikiSync
> > (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
> like it's still developed.
> >
> > I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bill
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Justin Folvarcik
Hi, Bill,
Our setup involves a server containing the codebase (which is mounted over
NFS), two web servers (which again use an NFS mount for the data), and one
database server. We handle our sessions and caching with memcached, which
is pooled between the two web servers. It's a very stable setup which has
worked for awhile. I'd recommend you try this out.

----
Justin Folvarcik

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Larry Silverman <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> If minimizing downtime is a concern, then you might not want to serve up
> the code from a share. It's common in a load-balanced environment to take
> one or more web servers out of rotation, upgrade their code, then
> re-introduce them -- then take the other ones out, upgrade code, and bring
> them back into the load balancer.
>
> You do have a complication with mediawiki in that sometimes running the
> update.php maintenance script will make changes to the database. Then you
> have a split environment where some web servers can talk to the database
> and others might throw errors on schema differences.
>
> Can be tricky. Hopefully your use case is more simple and you can get away
> with sharing the codebase.
>
> Larry Silverman
> Chief Technology Officer
> TrackAbout, Inc.
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Daniel Renfro <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > OHYEAH, files!
> >
> > I suggest mounting an NFS share on both webservers so they will write to
> > the same place. If you're going to do this for images, I think it should
> be
> > done for the entire MW installation. Then you never have to worry about
> > each webserver being on a different version -- every webserver is serving
> > up the same code.
> >
> > \\daniel renfro
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Traynor
> > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:51 PM
> > To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> > Subject: Re: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Daniel Renfro <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Cheers Bill,
> > >
> > > If both webservers are using a single database, then their data should
> > be synchronized. What other things are you looking to synchronize?
> >
> > What about the files?  Specifically the images directory.
> >
> > >
> > > You might want to look into setting up a distributed caching system
> > (hint: use memcached [1].) This will share the cache amongst the
> > webservers. You might also want to put the codebase on an NFS drive and
> > mount it on each of the webservers. If you are looking into building a
> > scalable MediaWiki installation, I would strongly advise taking a look
> into
> > Puppet [2].
> > >
> >
> > Thanks, this is great info.  Unfortunately, I don't have full control
> over
> > the environment, but I will make these suggestions.
> >
> > > \\daniel renfro
> > >
> > > [1.] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Memcached
> > > [2.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
> > > Traynor
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:09 PM
> > > To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> > > Subject: [MediaWiki-l] synchronizing two MW servers
> > >
> > > I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to
> a
> > 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any best
> > practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
> > >
> > > I found Extension:WikiSync
> > > (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
> > like it's still developed.
> > >
> > > I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > MediaWiki-l mailing list
> > To unsubscribe, go to:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Dave Humphrey
In reply to this post by Bill Traynor-2
We (www.uesp.net) have a similar MediaWiki setup and here is roughly how we
have set it up (whether it is a "good" design is another question):

   - Multiple content servers running Apache with identical copies of the
MediaWiki PHP files
   - Squid load balancer in front of the content servers
   - All content servers use the same memcached server for cache
   - PHP sessions shared via NFS
   - Images shared via NFS (./images/ linked to NFS shared directory )
   - Local file cache turned off

The files shared via NFS are on a different server. This has worked well
for us and there is only very rarely an issue with the cached content of
certain pages (usually cleared up with a purge for that page).

On 23 October 2014 12:09, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to
> a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any
> best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
>
> I found Extension:WikiSync
> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
> like it's still developed.
>
> I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
>
> Thanks
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>



--
Dave Humphrey -- [hidden email]
Founder/Server Admin of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages -- www.uesp.net
www.viud.net - Building the world's toughest USB drive
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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Bill Traynor-2
I've been told that NFS is NOT allowed in the environment where I'm
configuring my wiki.  Can the /images directory reside on shared SAN
mount?  Or, am I better off just writing an rsync script to keep the
application servers synced?

Thanks
Bill


On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Dave Humphrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We (www.uesp.net) have a similar MediaWiki setup and here is roughly how we
> have set it up (whether it is a "good" design is another question):
>
>    - Multiple content servers running Apache with identical copies of the
> MediaWiki PHP files
>    - Squid load balancer in front of the content servers
>    - All content servers use the same memcached server for cache
>    - PHP sessions shared via NFS
>    - Images shared via NFS (./images/ linked to NFS shared directory )
>    - Local file cache turned off
>
> The files shared via NFS are on a different server. This has worked well
> for us and there is only very rarely an issue with the cached content of
> certain pages (usually cleared up with a purge for that page).
>
> On 23 October 2014 12:09, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to
>> a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any
>> best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
>>
>> I found Extension:WikiSync
>> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
>> like it's still developed.
>>
>> I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bill
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MediaWiki-l mailing list
>> To unsubscribe, go to:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Humphrey -- [hidden email]
> Founder/Server Admin of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages -- www.uesp.net
> www.viud.net - Building the world's toughest USB drive
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Bill Traynor-2
Forget the SAN question, apparently that's not shareable either.  So I
think I'm stuck with implementing an rsync script to keep my app
servers synced.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been told that NFS is NOT allowed in the environment where I'm
> configuring my wiki.  Can the /images directory reside on shared SAN
> mount?  Or, am I better off just writing an rsync script to keep the
> application servers synced?
>
> Thanks
> Bill
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Dave Humphrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> We (www.uesp.net) have a similar MediaWiki setup and here is roughly how we
>> have set it up (whether it is a "good" design is another question):
>>
>>    - Multiple content servers running Apache with identical copies of the
>> MediaWiki PHP files
>>    - Squid load balancer in front of the content servers
>>    - All content servers use the same memcached server for cache
>>    - PHP sessions shared via NFS
>>    - Images shared via NFS (./images/ linked to NFS shared directory )
>>    - Local file cache turned off
>>
>> The files shared via NFS are on a different server. This has worked well
>> for us and there is only very rarely an issue with the cached content of
>> certain pages (usually cleared up with a purge for that page).
>>
>> On 23 October 2014 12:09, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to
>>> a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any
>>> best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
>>>
>>> I found Extension:WikiSync
>>> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
>>> like it's still developed.
>>>
>>> I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MediaWiki-l mailing list
>>> To unsubscribe, go to:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Humphrey -- [hidden email]
>> Founder/Server Admin of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages -- www.uesp.net
>> www.viud.net - Building the world's toughest USB drive
>> _______________________________________________
>> MediaWiki-l mailing list
>> To unsubscribe, go to:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l

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Re: synchronizing two MW servers

Larry Silverman
I've seen Unison <http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/> mentioned
frequently in the same breath as rsync. I'm much more familiar with rsync
myself.

Check me on this, but I think rsync is a one-way sync tool. Seems to me
that's not going to work out to keep multiple wiki nodes in sync unless
only one is writable and the rest are just read-only mirrors. Unison is, I
believe, bi-directional. This is going to matter to you if each wiki node
has the ability to save uploaded files.

Bi-directional syncing has its issues when merge conflicts arise. Someone
uploads a file by the exact same name to two different nodes at exactly the
same time. Unlikely? Yes. But if it happens, Unison's going to create some
kind of merge conflict.

Larry Silverman
Chief Technology Officer
TrackAbout, Inc.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Forget the SAN question, apparently that's not shareable either.  So I
> think I'm stuck with implementing an rsync script to keep my app
> servers synced.
>
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I've been told that NFS is NOT allowed in the environment where I'm
> > configuring my wiki.  Can the /images directory reside on shared SAN
> > mount?  Or, am I better off just writing an rsync script to keep the
> > application servers synced?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Dave Humphrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> We (www.uesp.net) have a similar MediaWiki setup and here is roughly
> how we
> >> have set it up (whether it is a "good" design is another question):
> >>
> >>    - Multiple content servers running Apache with identical copies of
> the
> >> MediaWiki PHP files
> >>    - Squid load balancer in front of the content servers
> >>    - All content servers use the same memcached server for cache
> >>    - PHP sessions shared via NFS
> >>    - Images shared via NFS (./images/ linked to NFS shared directory )
> >>    - Local file cache turned off
> >>
> >> The files shared via NFS are on a different server. This has worked well
> >> for us and there is only very rarely an issue with the cached content of
> >> certain pages (usually cleared up with a purge for that page).
> >>
> >> On 23 October 2014 12:09, Bill Traynor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have 2 application servers behind a load-balancer that both point to
> >>> a 3rd server where the database lives.  I'm curious if there are any
> >>> best practices around keeping the two MediaWiki servers synchronized?
> >>>
> >>> I found Extension:WikiSync
> >>> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiSync) but it doesn't look
> >>> like it's still developed.
> >>>
> >>> I assume Wikimedia does this now, anyone know how?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Bill
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to:
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dave Humphrey -- [hidden email]
> >> Founder/Server Admin of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages --
> www.uesp.net
> >> www.viud.net - Building the world's toughest USB drive
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> >> To unsubscribe, go to:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> To unsubscribe, go to:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>
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