Mediawiki and a standard template library

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Mediawiki and a standard template library

Martijn Hoekstra
On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
{{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
feasable.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki and a standard template library

Amir E. Aharoni
2011/8/20 Martijn Hoekstra <[hidden email]>:
> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
> see how easy it is!).

It is being rewritten as an extension now. The Babel extension already
exists to replace {{babel}}. For some templates that's probably the
right way.

It would also be much, much easier to translate them.

> I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
> distribution.

Just today i thought about having a little standard template library
for wikis in RTL languages. A template that produces stuff like <span
dir="ltr">{{{1}}}</span>. It should be easy.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Max Semenik
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:

> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
> feasable.

Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support.
And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with
using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and
"link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about 300+ sets of
templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't
forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not
Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads
them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is
simply out of the question.


--
Best regards,
  Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])


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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Amir E. Aharoni
2011/8/20 Max Semenik <[hidden email]>:
> Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support.
> And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with
> using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and
> "link" are meaningless to them.

Translating the templates' names can be easily done in translatewiki.net.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Martijn Hoekstra
In reply to this post by Max Semenik
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
>
>> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
>> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
>> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
>> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
>> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
>> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
>> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
>> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
>> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
>> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
>> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
>> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
>> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
>> feasable.
>
> Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support.
> And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with
> using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and
> "link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about 300+ sets of
> templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't
> forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not
> Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads
> them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is
> simply out of the question.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
>

eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also
I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather
establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and
translated!) on demand.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Łukasz Garczewski-4
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Martijn Hoekstra
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
> feasable.

Since Wikia was mentioned in this post, I thought I'd outline how
we've tackled this problem, as it might be interesting to the
discussion.

When a new wiki is created at Wikia, we don't start with an empty
database. Instead, we copy the contents of what we've called a
"starter wiki" into the newly created database.

Apart from the special role they play in the creation of new wikis,
starter wikis are pretty much normal wiki sites (with the exception of
tighter edit permissions to prevent vandalism).

Have a look at the English starter wiki:
http://starter.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=10

As you can see it has a ton of different templates. All of these exist
at every new wiki when it's created.

Martijn: if your Wikia wiki doesn't have some (or all) of those, that
might be because it was created before the starter system or because
it's in a language other than English and that language's starter wiki
doesn't have the template(s) you want (yes, we have per language
starters, too).

Mail me off-list, I'm sure I can help include the needed templates in
future wikis. :)

--
Lucas 'TOR' Garczewski
Community Engineer
[hidden email]

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martijn Hoekstra" <[hidden email]>

> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
> feasable.

+25.  I had to pull the book citation template out of Wikipedia to use it
on a Wikia site, and it was a 2 hour process.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       [hidden email]
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates     http://baylink.pitas.com         2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      http://photo.imageinc.us             +1 727 647 1274

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Martijn Hoekstra
In reply to this post by Łukasz Garczewski-4
2011/8/20 Łukasz Garczewski <[hidden email]>:

> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Martijn Hoekstra
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
>> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
>> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
>> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
>> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
>> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
>> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
>> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
>> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
>> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
>> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
>> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
>> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
>> feasable.
>
> Since Wikia was mentioned in this post, I thought I'd outline how
> we've tackled this problem, as it might be interesting to the
> discussion.
>
> When a new wiki is created at Wikia, we don't start with an empty
> database. Instead, we copy the contents of what we've called a
> "starter wiki" into the newly created database.
>
> Apart from the special role they play in the creation of new wikis,
> starter wikis are pretty much normal wiki sites (with the exception of
> tighter edit permissions to prevent vandalism).
>
> Have a look at the English starter wiki:
> http://starter.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=10
>
> As you can see it has a ton of different templates. All of these exist
> at every new wiki when it's created.
>
> Martijn: if your Wikia wiki doesn't have some (or all) of those, that
> might be because it was created before the starter system or because
> it's in a language other than English and that language's starter wiki
> doesn't have the template(s) you want (yes, we have per language
> starters, too).
>
> Mail me off-list, I'm sure I can help include the needed templates in
> future wikis. :)
>
> --
> Lucas 'TOR' Garczewski
> Community Engineer
> [hidden email]
>

Lucas, thanks for the offer, and I will take you up on it!

In the mean time, where this may (partially) solve the problem for
Wikia, it's the more general problem that is more important. A user
creating a new wiki with our software shouldn't have to lug through a
difficult import process, or have to built some system that easily
manages imports the way Wikia did. It's no coincidence I named this
'a' standard template library in the subject line. Like the STL is not
part of the C++ language, the fact that it is freely available, and
standard, makes C++ much more easy to develop for, as there are many
building blocks readily available for programmers. Likewise, defined
templates are not part of MediaWiki, but could greatly enhance the
user experience. Wikia made the import module for a reason, and the
reason is users are greatly helped by having a standard library of
templates available to them.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Jay Ashworth-2
On 20 August 2011 21:01, Jay Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +25.  I had to pull the book citation template out of Wikipedia to use it
> on a Wikia site, and it was a 2 hour process.


Yes. Speaking as a MediaWiki tarball user (at work), this doesn't
require a fork (as Fred contemplates) - it just needs an extra
tarball, or maybe an XML export file of importable templates, or maybe
both (necessary extensions plus template XML).

This discussion has also come up on one of the technical lists - a
"light" MW tarball, and a tarball with the extensions one would expect
to see on Wikipedia included. Including a standard template set would
fit right in with that.

This discussion may belong on wikitech-l or mediawiki-l ...


- d.

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Fred Bauder-2
> On 20 August 2011 21:01, Jay Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> +25.  I had to pull the book citation template out of Wikipedia to use
>> it
>> on a Wikia site, and it was a 2 hour process.
>
>
> Yes. Speaking as a MediaWiki tarball user (at work), this doesn't
> require a fork (as Fred contemplates) - it just needs an extra
> tarball, or maybe an XML export file of importable templates, or maybe
> both (necessary extensions plus template XML).
>
> This discussion has also come up on one of the technical lists - a
> "light" MW tarball, and a tarball with the extensions one would expect
> to see on Wikipedia included. Including a standard template set would
> fit right in with that.
>
> This discussion may belong on wikitech-l or mediawiki-l ...
>
>
> - d.

I'm thinking about including anything routinely used as either as an
extension, stylesheet, or required program which is needed to make an
import from Wikipedia display properly. For example the timeline
extension and its required Ploticus program. In short all the things
which throw a content oriented user into programing mode. Some of these
things might not be possible. Shared hosting plays a role in this matter.

Fred


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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Sumurai8 (DD)
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
>>
>>> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
>>> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
>>> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
>>> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
>>> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import'
>>> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
>>> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
>>> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
>>> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
>>> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
>>> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
>>> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
>>> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
>>> feasable.
>>
>> Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support.
>> And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with
>> using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and
>> "link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about 300+ sets of
>> templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't
>> forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not
>> Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads
>> them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is
>> simply out of the question.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> ?Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
>>
>
> eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also
> I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather
> establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and
> translated!) on demand.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn

The English Wikipedia has useful templates for an encyclopedia.
MediaWiki-software is useful for making an encyclopedia, but doesn't
have to be forced to be one. If someone wants a template from en.wp,
they will export it and import it at their own MediaWiki-install. If
that takes two hours, it says more about the total mess of the en.wp
template structure, then about the 'lack of standard templates' in a
MediaWiki-install. It will still take a considerable amount of time to
import a template with standard templates in place.

Then there will be a discussion what will be useful templates for a
new MediaWiki install. If you decide to ship a MediaWiki install with
a set of templates, the best case is that they will use all templates.
Every worse case is that they will end up with a few templates they
can use/want to use and lots and lots of junk.

Furthermore I am wondering who wants to maintain such an arbitrary
bunch of templates for 200 languages? It's not only the name of the
templates that need to be translated. The contents of every template,
including transclusions of other templates and language-specific
outcome of 'magic words' (for example in {{#ifeq: }}-statements) need
to be translated. If one wants to import a template from en.wp, he/she
has to import templates and templates where that template is depending
on like before. Now they have to translate the inclusion of standard
templates too, because on their wiki these standard templates now have
names in their custom language.

Sumurai8

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Fred Bauder-2
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
>>>
>>>> On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes
>>>> to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
>>>> defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most
>>>> familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
>>>> {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to
>>>> 'import'
>>>> one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
>>>> templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for
>>>> the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and
>>>> see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
>>>> include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
>>>> containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
>>>> distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if
>>>> this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
>>>> feasable.
>>>
>>> Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support.
>>> And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with
>>> using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and
>>> "link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about 300+ sets of
>>> templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't
>>> forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not
>>> Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads
>>> them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is
>>> simply out of the question.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> ?Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
>>>
>>
>> eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also
>> I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather
>> establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and
>> translated!) on demand.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Martijn
>
> The English Wikipedia has useful templates for an encyclopedia.
> MediaWiki-software is useful for making an encyclopedia, but doesn't
> have to be forced to be one. If someone wants a template from en.wp,
> they will export it and import it at their own MediaWiki-install. If
> that takes two hours, it says more about the total mess of the en.wp
> template structure, then about the 'lack of standard templates' in a
> MediaWiki-install. It will still take a considerable amount of time to
> import a template with standard templates in place.
>
> Then there will be a discussion what will be useful templates for a
> new MediaWiki install. If you decide to ship a MediaWiki install with
> a set of templates, the best case is that they will use all templates.
> Every worse case is that they will end up with a few templates they
> can use/want to use and lots and lots of junk.
>
> Furthermore I am wondering who wants to maintain such an arbitrary
> bunch of templates for 200 languages? It's not only the name of the
> templates that need to be translated. The contents of every template,
> including transclusions of other templates and language-specific
> outcome of 'magic words' (for example in {{#ifeq: }}-statements) need
> to be translated. If one wants to import a template from en.wp, he/she
> has to import templates and templates where that template is depending
> on like before. Now they have to translate the inclusion of standard
> templates too, because on their wiki these standard templates now have
> names in their custom language.
>
> Sumurai8

I guess those who would want to maintain this would be people interested
in forks of Wikipedia. Good point though about the template structure on
Wikipedia. Rationalization of that would be part of this.

Fred



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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

go moko
In reply to this post by Sumurai8 (DD)
----- Original Message -----

> From: Sumurai8 (DD) <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki and a standard template library
>
>>  On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>>  On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
>>>
>>>>  On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific
> comes
>>>>  to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been
>>>>  defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am
> most
>>>>  familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the
>>>>  {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to
> 'import'
>>>>  one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other
>>>>  templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise
> for
>>>>  the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki,
> and
>>>>  see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to
>>>>  include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations,
>>>>  containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia
>>>>  distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible
> discussion if
>>>>  this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is
>>>>  feasable.
>>>
>>>  Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support.
>>>  And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with
>>>  using English templates, because words like "cite book",
> "author" and
>>>  "link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about
> 300+ sets of
>>>  templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't
>>>  forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not
>>>  Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads
>>>  them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is
>>>  simply out of the question.
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Best regards,
>>>  ?Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
>>>
>>
>>  eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also
>>  I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather
>>  establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and
>>  translated!) on demand.
>>
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Martijn
>
> The English Wikipedia has useful templates for an encyclopedia.
> MediaWiki-software is useful for making an encyclopedia, but doesn't
> have to be forced to be one. If someone wants a template from en.wp,
> they will export it and import it at their own MediaWiki-install. If
> that takes two hours, it says more about the total mess of the en.wp
> template structure, then about the 'lack of standard templates' in a
> MediaWiki-install. It will still take a considerable amount of time to
> import a template with standard templates in place.
>
> Then there will be a discussion what will be useful templates for a
> new MediaWiki install. If you decide to ship a MediaWiki install with
> a set of templates, the best case is that they will use all templates.
> Every worse case is that they will end up with a few templates they
> can use/want to use and lots and lots of junk.
>
> Furthermore I am wondering who wants to maintain such an arbitrary
> bunch of templates for 200 languages? It's not only the name of the
> templates that need to be translated. The contents of every template,
> including transclusions of other templates and language-specific
> outcome of 'magic words' (for example in {{#ifeq: }}-statements) need
> to be translated. If one wants to import a template from en.wp, he/she
> has to import templates and templates where that template is depending
> on like before. Now they have to translate the inclusion of standard
> templates too, because on their wiki these standard templates now have
> names in their custom language.
>
> Sumurai8

So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary for it to work properly.
I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?

G. Moko
(Forgive my poor english...)

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Fred Bauder-2

>
> So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is
> a mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are
> necessary for it to work properly.
> I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
>
> G. Moko
> (Forgive my poor english...)

If the category scheme is rational importing all the templates in a
category will work.

Fred



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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Alex Brollo
IMHO, the idea of a decent set of common, shared, english-named, standard
templates is really a a good one. Noone have nothing against the fact that
reserved words of any programming language is english-named and  standard.

I presume, that many of existing templates aren't used into ns0 or other
content namespaces; in my opinion, the core shared templates should be
focused on common content namespaces troubles.

Please consider too that many templates require some peculiar css settings
too; perhaps a common, shared ccs for tags used in content namespaces would
be both more simple to do, and very useful so build a shared group of
templates.

Alex brollo
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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Krinkle
Note that things like {{Cite}} and {{trim}} should probably
be an extension that adds a parser function, not a template.

Although the overlap between extensions adding parser
functions and and templates getting tighter with WikiScripts,
in general templates are for re-used wikitext and formatting.

Parser functions / magic words are for computing and logic.

So to share such logic from one wiki to another, one doesn't.
One simply installs the same extension.

--
Krinkle
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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Andre Engels
In reply to this post by go moko
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:31 PM, go moko <[hidden email]> wrote:


> So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a
> mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary
> for it to work properly.
> I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
>

This should not be too hard to program - what is needed is that one
exports/imports not only the template but also all templates included in it.
There is already functionality to get this list - they are shown on the edit
page. Thus, all that is needed is some kind of interface to "export this
page and all templates directly or indirectly included in it". Also useful
in case someone wants to fork with only  a subset of the pages.

--
André Engels, [hidden email]
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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Mormegil
On 25 August 2011 08:28, Andre Engels <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:31 PM, go moko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a
>> mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary
>> for it to work properly.
>> I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
>
> This should not be too hard to program - what is needed is that one
> exports/imports not only the template but also all templates included in it.
> There is already functionality to get this list - they are shown on the edit
> page. Thus, all that is needed is some kind of interface to "export this
> page and all templates directly or indirectly included in it".

You mean like… checking the “Include templates” box on Special:Export?

But the problem is more difficult than that. MediaWiki has no chance
of knowing which templates are “necessary for it to work properly”, it
can only detect those that are _actually used_ in a specific use case
(as you say, those which are shown on the edit page), which is just a
subset of those required in general.

-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]

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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Andre Engels
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Petr Kadlec <[hidden email]> wrote:


> You mean like… checking the “Include templates” box on Special:Export?
>

I guess that's what I mean, it's been a few years since I last saw
Special:Export - long enough that I have no idea whether that box is from
before or after that time.


> But the problem is more difficult than that. MediaWiki has no chance
> of knowing which templates are “necessary for it to work properly”, it
> can only detect those that are _actually used_ in a specific use case
> (as you say, those which are shown on the edit page), which is just a
> subset of those required in general.
>

No, but it does at least mean that exporting and importing any single
template should be possible in a very short time indeed.

--
André Engels, [hidden email]
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Re: Mediawiki and a standard template library

Mormegil
On 25 August 2011 10:47, Andre Engels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> But the problem is more difficult than that. MediaWiki has no chance
>> of knowing which templates are “necessary for it to work properly”, it
>> can only detect those that are _actually used_ in a specific use case
>> (as you say, those which are shown on the edit page), which is just a
>> subset of those required in general.
>>
>
> No, but it does at least mean that exporting and importing any single
> template should be possible in a very short time indeed.

Well… no, generally not. Check for instance {{flagicon}}. There is no
way Special:Export could recognize it is required to export all 2556
(!) templates in [[Special:Prefixindex/Template:Country data]].

Of course, this does help for “simpler” template systems.

-- Petr Kadlec / Mormegil

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