[Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

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[Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Frederik Dohr
Hey everyone,

When talking to other people about wikis, it is often necessary to point
out that Wikipedia is only one implementation, and not THE wiki.
In that context, I've noticed that the terminology in terms of naming
the basic concept seems to be confusing or inconsistent:

In my understanding, the term "wiki" is just a shortening of (and thus a
synonym for) "WikiWikiWebs" - meaning that, strictly speaking,
"WikiWikiWeb" would be the generic term (or hypernym) for the whole slew
of wikis and wiki projects/communities out there.
However, many resources (including Wikipedia) seem to limit the term
"WikiWikiWeb" to Ward Cunningham's original implementation (WardsWiki or
the Portland Pattern Repository) - whereas I'd see that as one of many
WikiWikiWebs (or wikis), even if it was the orginal one.

Am I wrong in my understanding of this - or is there simply no clear
consensus on that yet?


Thanks,

Frederik

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

David Gerard-2
On 09/01/07, Frederik Dohr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am I wrong in my understanding of this - or is there simply no clear
> consensus on that yet?


I treat "wiki" as the generic and "Wikipedia" as Wikipedia. I'm a
volunteer press contact for the Wikimedia Foundation, so get a
reasonable number of opportunities to use soundbites implying this
usage.

The term "A wikipedia" being applied to anything that isn't a
Wikimedia Foundation wiki (or a test Wikipedia expressly working
toward being WMF-hosted) is a bad idea and tends to get a polite but
slightly aggrieved email from the Foundation pointing out it's a
trademark and asking for a rephrase, so that should work with time.

I'm not so sure how to recover the term "wiki" - it's definitely being
used as a casual English language conversational term for the English
Wikipedia. But hopefully with workplace wikis coming into fashion, the
term will become generic. (Even if a lot of them will be MediaWiki
installations, whether or not it's gross overkill for ten users. But
MoinMoin, UseMod, Trac and the Microsoft thing are all used on
intranets quite a bit; MediaWiki hardly has a monopoly.)


- d.

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

David Gerard-2
On 09/01/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I treat "wiki" as the generic and "Wikipedia" as Wikipedia. I'm a
> volunteer press contact for the Wikimedia Foundation, so get a
> reasonable number of opportunities to use soundbites implying this
> usage.


Oh, and I do try to point out we didn't invent it, or even close, and
give due credit to Ward Cunningham!


- d.

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Frederik Dohr
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Thanks, David.
So you basically only use "wiki(s)" and never use "WikiWikiWeb(s)" at all?

Oh, by the way: Your response reminded me that even my professor - who
is supposed to know better, and otherwise quite competent - uses the
term "a wikipedia" sometimes, which I think is quite odd...


-- F.


----- Original Message -----
From: David Gerard
Date: 2007-01-09 13:02

> On 09/01/07, Frederik Dohr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Am I wrong in my understanding of this - or is there simply no clear
>> consensus on that yet?
>
>
> I treat "wiki" as the generic and "Wikipedia" as Wikipedia. I'm a
> volunteer press contact for the Wikimedia Foundation, so get a
> reasonable number of opportunities to use soundbites implying this
> usage.
>
> The term "A wikipedia" being applied to anything that isn't a
> Wikimedia Foundation wiki (or a test Wikipedia expressly working
> toward being WMF-hosted) is a bad idea and tends to get a polite but
> slightly aggrieved email from the Foundation pointing out it's a
> trademark and asking for a rephrase, so that should work with time.
>
> I'm not so sure how to recover the term "wiki" - it's definitely being
> used as a casual English language conversational term for the English
> Wikipedia. But hopefully with workplace wikis coming into fashion, the
> term will become generic. (Even if a lot of them will be MediaWiki
> installations, whether or not it's gross overkill for ten users. But
> MoinMoin, UseMod, Trac and the Microsoft thing are all used on
> intranets quite a bit; MediaWiki hardly has a monopoly.)
>
>
> - d.

> Oh, and I do try to point out we didn't invent it, or even close, and
> give due credit to Ward Cunningham!
>
>
> - d.

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

David Gerard-2
On 09/01/07, Frederik Dohr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So you basically only use "wiki(s)" and never use "WikiWikiWeb(s)" at all?


Yeah, that's the usage in English I seem to have taken on and see from
others. See also the introduction of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
.


> Oh, by the way: Your response reminded me that even my professor - who
> is supposed to know better, and otherwise quite competent - uses the
> term "a wikipedia" sometimes, which I think is quite odd...


Heh. See if you can change their usage :-)


- d.

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Bugzilla from sy1234@gmail.com
In reply to this post by Frederik Dohr
On 1/9/07, Frederik Dohr <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So you basically only use "wiki(s)" and never use "WikiWikiWeb(s)" at all?

In years and years, I've only ever heard "WikiWikiWeb" used when
discussing the roots of the wiki phenomenon.

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Rob Church
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 09/01/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> term will become generic. (Even if a lot of them will be MediaWiki
> installations, whether or not it's gross overkill for ten users. But
> MoinMoin, UseMod, Trac and the Microsoft thing are all used on
> intranets quite a bit; MediaWiki hardly has a monopoly.)

Yet.


Rob Church

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

David Gerard-2
On 09/01/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 09/01/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > term will become generic. (Even if a lot of them will be MediaWiki
> > installations, whether or not it's gross overkill for ten users. But
> > MoinMoin, UseMod, Trac and the Microsoft thing are all used on
> > intranets quite a bit; MediaWiki hardly has a monopoly.)

> Yet.


I was thinking that, then I saw how wikis were actually being used.
MediaWiki is a lardarse - power of a tank and durability of a tank,
with handling of a tank and mileage of a tank - with silly
requirements compared to e.g. my home work intranet wiki, which has
ten users and is MoinMoin because that uses flat files rather than
MySQL. I wouldn't object to MediaWiki, but I can see a lot to say for
the viewpoint that it would be overkill.


- d.

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Rob Church
On 10/01/07, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was thinking that, then I saw how wikis were actually being used.
> MediaWiki is a lardarse - power of a tank and durability of a tank,
> with handling of a tank and mileage of a tank - with silly
> requirements compared to e.g. my home work intranet wiki, which has
> ten users and is MoinMoin because that uses flat files rather than
> MySQL. I wouldn't object to MediaWiki, but I can see a lot to say for
> the viewpoint that it would be overkill.

Oh, absolutely; MediaWiki is completely inappropriate for a personal
use wiki, or a wiki for a very small group where it's *known* that
scaling to meet the needs of several thousand/million users will never
be needed.

Where it is *extremely* powerful, is when there *are* two or three
million users reading, editing, moving, watching pages.


Rob Church

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Fernando Correia
My first impression of MediaWiki was that it was too complex for the
needs of a medium-sized corporation. I selected MoinMoin because it is
also very good and has less infrastructure requirements.

Now in other job I'm using MediaWiki and I found out that it is not
too complex after all, that it is very mature and, above all, that its
extensibility is very good.

I'd settle for MediaWiki, even for a 1-person wiki... :-)

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Re: [Mediawiki-l] [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Frederik Dohr
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from sy1234@gmail.com
> In years and years, I've only ever heard "WikiWikiWeb" used when
> discussing the roots of the wiki phenomenon.

That seems to be correct:

> Q: Why is Wiki always written with a capital W?
> A: "Wiki" (with a W) is shorthand for the WikiWikiWeb (aka
>    WardsWiki), i.e. this site. "wiki" (with a w) means "a site that
>    operates along the same principles as Wiki", probably running
>    one of the WikiWikiClones. See WikiHasManyMeanings for more on
>    when to capitalize "wiki".
(taken from http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiWikiWebFaq)

Problem solved.

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Re: [OT] Terminology: Wikis vs. WikiWikiWebs

Luis Zarrabeitia
In reply to this post by Fernando Correia
On Wednesday 10 January 2007 05:42, Fernando Correia wrote:
> My first impression of MediaWiki was that it was too complex for the
> needs of a medium-sized corporation. I selected MoinMoin because it is
> also very good and has less infrastructure requirements.
>
> Now in other job I'm using MediaWiki and I found out that it is not
> too complex after all, that it is very mature and, above all, that its
> extensibility is very good.
>
> I'd settle for MediaWiki, even for a 1-person wiki... :-)

I second you there. I saw MediaWiki, it looked nice and all but seemed too
complex and inflexible... but it had a couple of features I wanted, so I dug
on the code... Surprise, I found out that it is actually extremely simple and
flexible (even if I don't know a lot of php) :D. I like it, I felt great
adapting it, and now I just wish I could get one of my changes commited (or
help of some dev to see if I did something wrong), but I won't be bothering
anyone with that 'till 1.9 is out.

--
Luis Zarrabeitia
Fac. de Matemática y Computación, UH.
http://profesores.matcom.uh.cu/~kyrie

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