Meet the Metz

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Meet the Metz

Daniel R. Tobias
Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
last one:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/


--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/



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Re: Meet the Metz

Keith Old
On 12/7/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
> last one:
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/
>
>
> --
> == Dan ==
> Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
> Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
> Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

G'day Dan,

This article seriously mentions black helicopters in the context of
Wikipedia.

If you ever took the Register seriously, it's time to reconsider your
opinion.

Regards


Keith Old

User:Capitalistroadster
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Re: Meet the Metz

James Farrar
On 07/12/2007, Keith Old <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/7/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
> > last one:
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/
>
> This article seriously mentions black helicopters in the context of
> Wikipedia.

Actually, it mentions them in the title of the article. It's used a
convenient shorthand that most Register readers would understand.

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Re: Meet the Metz

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:19:57 -0500, "Daniel R. Tobias"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
>last one:

Ah, bless, Bagley's finally found someone so daft that he actually
believes his hard-luck story!  Seems David Hannum was right after
all.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: Meet the Metz

joshua.zelinsky
In reply to this post by Keith Old
Quoting Keith Old <[hidden email]>:

> On 12/7/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
>> last one:
>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/
>>
>>
>> --
>> == Dan ==
>> Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
>> Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
>> Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
> G'day Dan,
>
> This article seriously mentions black helicopters in the context of
> Wikipedia.
>
> If you ever took the Register seriously, it's time to reconsider your
> opinion.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Keith Old
>
> User:Capitalistroadster

I'm also concerned that Dan and others seem to be going out of there
way to take
Wikipedia disputes off-wiki in a way to maximize damage to the
reputation of the
project as a whole and Wikipedia editors who they disagree with. If we don't
have the maturity to handle our disputes without egging on tabloids to write
nasty things about other editors we have a serious problem.

Dan, I've agreed with you on BADSITES somewhat, and I've disagreed with you
strongly on the Durova matter but see somewhat where you are coming
from, but I
cannot begin to fathom what went through your mind when you took part in this
article. I see nothing it accomplishes other than being a hit piece on fellow
Wikipedians. We can have polite, rational disagreement without pulling
tabloids
into our mess. Heck, we can even have impolite disagreements. We sometimes say
"fuck" and "shut up" to each other on the mailing list. But there is no good
reason to get newspapers involved like this, especially crappy newspapers who
wish to cause trouble.

I hope that all editors in the future will exercise better restraint than to
engage in this sort of immature and unproductive behavior.


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Meet the Wahlalternative Arbeit & soziale Gerechtigkeit

Adrian-73
I know, I know, this is less interesting than the latest fair & balanced
Register article, and on top of that it concerns the German Wikimedia,
but just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet:

http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/12/06/wikipedia-sued-for-nazi-sympathies/

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt6m1/computer/artikel/264/146922/

Adrian

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Re: Meet the Wahlalternative Arbeit & soziale Gerechtigkeit

Mathias Schindler-2
On Dec 7, 2007 8:57 AM, Adrian <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I know, I know, this is less interesting than the latest fair & balanced
> Register article, and on top of that it concerns the German Wikimedia,
> but just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet:

Hi, we (=Wikimedia Germany and Wikimedia Foundation, ComCom) are
working  on it. Basically, Schubert did not read the law. §86 (3)
German criminal code has very specific exemptions for displaying
symbols of organisations of forbidden organisations (like the nazi
party). It is perfectly acceptable by law to display such a symbol in
an article about that organisation.

Schubert came under fire from people within her own party who realize
the absurdity of her statement and action. I am confident that she
will openly regret the error she made.

Mathias

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Re: Meet the Wahlalternative Arbeit & soziale Gerechtigkeit

Keith Old
On Dec 7, 2007 7:13 PM, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Dec 7, 2007 8:57 AM, Adrian <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I know, I know, this is less interesting than the latest fair & balanced
> > Register article, and on top of that it concerns the German Wikimedia,
> > but just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet:
>
> Hi, we (=Wikimedia Germany and Wikimedia Foundation, ComCom) are
> working  on it. Basically, Schubert did not read the law. §86 (3)
> German criminal code has very specific exemptions for displaying
> symbols of organisations of forbidden organisations (like the nazi
> party). It is perfectly acceptable by law to display such a symbol in
> an article about that organisation.
>
> Schubert came under fire from people within her own party who realize
> the absurdity of her statement and action. I am confident that she
> will openly regret the error she made.
>
> Mathias
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

G'day folks,

While we're on the topic of German Wikipedia, well done for this.

http://www.eux.tv/article.aspx?articleId=18752

"The German version of the do-it-yourself online reference work Wikipedia is
better than Germany's most prestigious commercial encyclopaedia, the weekly
magazine Stern asserted Wednesday. "

Regards


Keith Old
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Re: Meet the Metz

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On 07/12/2007, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:19:57 -0500, "Daniel R. Tobias"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
> >last one:

> Ah, bless, Bagley's finally found someone so daft that he actually
> believes his hard-luck story!  Seems David Hannum was right after
> all.


Who?

The article is, um, quite special. It appears to be the Judd Bagley press pack.


- d.

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Re: Meet the Metz

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by joshua.zelinsky
On 07/12/2007, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dan, I've agreed with you on BADSITES somewhat, and I've disagreed with you
> strongly on the Durova matter but see somewhat where you are coming
> from, but I
> cannot begin to fathom what went through your mind when you took part in this
> article. I see nothing it accomplishes other than being a hit piece on fellow
> Wikipedians.


Mr Metz is someone more than a few Wikipedians have foolishly spoken
to precisely once. Then they realise that participating in ad banner
trolling is unlikely to advance anyone else's agenda.


- d.

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Re: Meet the Metz

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:24:50 +0000, "David Gerard"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Ah, bless, Bagley's finally found someone so daft that he actually
>> believes his hard-luck story!  Seems David Hannum was right after
>> all.

>Who?

David Hannum is the person who actually coined the phrase "there's a
sucker born every minute".

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: Meet the Wahlalternative Arbeit & soziale Gerechtigkeit

Adrian-73
In reply to this post by Keith Old
Keith Old schrieb:

> On Dec 7, 2007 7:13 PM, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>  
>> On Dec 7, 2007 8:57 AM, Adrian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> I know, I know, this is less interesting than the latest fair & balanced
>>> Register article, and on top of that it concerns the German Wikimedia,
>>> but just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet:
>>>      
>> Hi, we (=Wikimedia Germany and Wikimedia Foundation, ComCom) are
>> working  on it. Basically, Schubert did not read the law. §86 (3)
>> German criminal code has very specific exemptions for displaying
>> symbols of organisations of forbidden organisations (like the nazi
>> party). It is perfectly acceptable by law to display such a symbol in
>> an article about that organisation.
>>
>> Schubert came under fire from people within her own party who realize
>> the absurdity of her statement and action. I am confident that she
>> will openly regret the error she made.
>>
>> Mathias
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>    
>
> G'day folks,
>
> While we're on the topic of German Wikipedia, well done for this.
>
> http://www.eux.tv/article.aspx?articleId=18752
>
> "The German version of the do-it-yourself online reference work Wikipedia is
> better than Germany's most prestigious commercial encyclopaedia, the weekly
> magazine Stern asserted Wednesday. "
>
> Regards
>
>
> Keith Old
Yeah, I considered including that as well, but this is the mailing list
for rumination of baseless allegations and drama, so I figured a pending
lawsuit is more to the taste of the audience.

Adrian

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Re: Meet the Wahlalternative Arbeit & soziale Gerechtigkeit

Mathias Schindler-2
On Dec 7, 2007 10:01 AM, Adrian <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Keith Old
> Yeah, I considered including that as well, but this is the mailing list
> for rumination of baseless allegations and drama, so I figured a pending
> lawsuit is more to the taste of the audience.
>

There is drama in the Stern cover story as well. The Brockhaus
spokesperson lamented the result :)

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Re: Meet the Metz

John Lee-14
In reply to this post by joshua.zelinsky
On Dec 6, 2007 9:16 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting Keith Old <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 12/7/07, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
> >> last one:
> >>
> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> == Dan ==
> >> Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
> >> Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
> >> Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> > G'day Dan,
> >
> > This article seriously mentions black helicopters in the context of
> > Wikipedia.
> >
> > If you ever took the Register seriously, it's time to reconsider your
> > opinion.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > Keith Old
> >
> > User:Capitalistroadster
>
> I'm also concerned that Dan and others seem to be going out of there
> way to take
> Wikipedia disputes off-wiki in a way to maximize damage to the
> reputation of the
> project as a whole and Wikipedia editors who they disagree with. If we don't
> have the maturity to handle our disputes without egging on tabloids to write
> nasty things about other editors we have a serious problem.
>
> Dan, I've agreed with you on BADSITES somewhat, and I've disagreed with you
> strongly on the Durova matter but see somewhat where you are coming
> from, but I
> cannot begin to fathom what went through your mind when you took part in this
> article. I see nothing it accomplishes other than being a hit piece on fellow
> Wikipedians. We can have polite, rational disagreement without pulling
> tabloids
> into our mess. Heck, we can even have impolite disagreements. We sometimes say
> "fuck" and "shut up" to each other on the mailing list. But there is no good
> reason to get newspapers involved like this, especially crappy newspapers who
> wish to cause trouble.
>
> I hope that all editors in the future will exercise better restraint than to
> engage in this sort of immature and unproductive behavior.

Personally I wouldn't encourage the sort of irresponsible reporting El
Reg frequently engages in, and I don't approve of editors who would do
the same, but at the same time, I don't see why editors shouldn't be
free to do this. Making this verboten will only force them to become
anonymous and complicate matters further. It is irresponsible to drag
disputes off-wiki as was done here, but it will happen regardless of
what we do - that's the whole lesson of the BADSITES debacle.

(I would also take exception to the suggestion that simply answering
questions from a tabloid hostile to Wikipedia is automatically
tantamount to dragging our good name through the mud - the chair of
Wikimedia UK has responded to El Reg in the comments section, but this
doesn't mean she has somehow harmed Wikipedia simply by virtue of
participating.)

The more openness, the better, if you ask me. Sometimes it is better
for us to comment when newspapers pose questions to us. The risk of
tabloids abusing our openness is just something we have to tolerate.

Johnleemk

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Re: Meet the Metz

David Gerard-2
On 07/12/2007, John Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Personally I wouldn't encourage the sort of irresponsible reporting El
> Reg frequently engages in, and I don't approve of editors who would do
> the same, but at the same time, I don't see why editors shouldn't be
> free to do this. Making this verboten will only force them to become
> anonymous and complicate matters further. It is irresponsible to drag
> disputes off-wiki as was done here, but it will happen regardless of
> what we do - that's the whole lesson of the BADSITES debacle.


Absolutely - we respond to stuff because we feel that doing so will
advance the encyclopedia and the project to write the encyclopedia.
The problem is that the only agenda advanced by feeding an ad-banner
troll is that of the ad-banner troll.

But I certainly wouldn't deny anyone the important educational
experience of having done so, nor the powerful personal in just how
reliable those things that have been arbitrarily deemed "reliable
sources" actually are.


> (I would also take exception to the suggestion that simply answering
> questions from a tabloid hostile to Wikipedia is automatically
> tantamount to dragging our good name through the mud - the chair of
> Wikimedia UK has responded to El Reg in the comments section, but this
> doesn't mean she has somehow harmed Wikipedia simply by virtue of
> participating.)


Though she did gain a powerful personal lesson in the effectiveness of
feeding the ad-banner troll.


> The more openness, the better, if you ask me. Sometimes it is better
> for us to comment when newspapers pose questions to us. The risk of
> tabloids abusing our openness is just something we have to tolerate.


Definitely. Mostly, being ourselves to press queries is just the right
thing to do. I'm surprised and pleased how well random normal
Wikipedians the press talk to tend to come across.


- d.

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Re: Meet the Metz

Judson Dunn-2
I stopped reading here:

"On July 7, 2006, I decided to alert the Wikipedia community to
Weiss's activities," Bagley says. "I did this by adding some true but
unflattering details to the Gary Weiss article, expecting
Mantanmoreland to object and escalate the matter to the official
Wikipedia dispute resolution process, resulting in Mantanmoreland's
banning from Wikipedia."

Jesus, really? Didn't you think maybe any of the hundred other nice,
normal, easy, and transparent ways would be better?

I think there is just a culture problem. There are people in the world
that are so unaccustomed to any transparency they fundamentally can't
work with Wikipedia. That's my opinion today anyway.

Judson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cohesion

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Re: Meet the Metz

Charlotte Webb
On 12/7/07, cohesion <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Jesus, really? Didn't you think maybe any of the hundred other nice,
> normal, easy, and transparent ways would be better?

I'm pretty sure any approach would have backfired on him (making
niceness, normality, ease, and transparency four moot points).

—C.W.

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Re: Meet the Metz

jayjg
On Dec 7, 2007 12:39 PM, Charlotte Webb <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/7/07, cohesion <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Jesus, really? Didn't you think maybe any of the hundred other nice,
> > normal, easy, and transparent ways would be better?
>
> I'm pretty sure any approach would have backfired on him

Why is that?

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Re: Meet the Metz

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by Daniel R. Tobias
On Dec 6, 2007 5:19 PM, Daniel R. Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Another Cade Metz article on Wikipedia, following in the heels of the
> last one:
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/06/wikipedia_and_overstock/
>
> <http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>


Daniel;

While I feel it's fine for everyone to have their say, including Bagley, I'm
somewhat dissapointed that you participated in helping a writer create a
puff piece that completely dismissed Bagley's long and well documented
history of dangerous stalking and harrassment activities.

What he's done online makes it completely unsuitable for him to ever edit
Wikipedia again.

Cade is clearly looking for and finding controversy.  The Register thrives
on that.  The reality is rather different.  Rendering aid and comfort to
people who behave sociopathically online is not in the best interests of the
project.


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]
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Re: Meet the Metz

Charlotte Webb
On 12/7/07, George Herbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Rendering aid and comfort to people who behave sociopathically online
> is not in the best interests of the project.

I agree. Actually I think that's what I said about Daniel Brandt circa
the 14th AFD.

—C.W.

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