Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case

[James Farrar]

On 27/11/2007, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Working definition of "cabal": group of people talking that the
> labeler isn't in.

Perhaps.

Then again, when it is admitted that a "report" was circulated to
"roughly two dozen trusted people" (http://tinyurl.com/2mxb3v for the
diff), the inevitable first two questions are "by whom are they
trusted?" and "trusted to do what?"

I really, really hope that none of the Arbitrators voting in the RFAr
were on this secret mailing list. That would truly cause a collision
between excrement and ventilator.

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[Guy Chapman aka JzG]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:42:44 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>So, for anyone who doesn't know, it's now come out that there was
>basically a citizens "militia" of sorts that created secret mailing
>lists where they coordinated their actions and presented secret
>evidence against those suspected of being affiliated with a BADSITE.

Absolute, pure, unmitigated bullshit.

This is a list that includes arbitrators and Jimbo and exists for
the sole expressed purpose of helping people to better manage
harassment.

You have been told this before, and yet you still posted this
egregious trolling.  Way to go, Alec.

Guy (JzG)
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[Guy Chapman aka JzG]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:59:05 -0500, Steve Summit <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>I'm sorry, but I think this is a lovely case of trying to
>rationalize away a serious problem.

True - but not the one you were thinking of.  There exists on
Wikipedia a small group of people who will reflexively revert any
removal of any link to external harassment, shouting "ZOMG!
BADSITES!" and calling the world to come and look.

For the victims of offsite harassment, this is a really bad
atmosphere.  They have only two choices at present: leave harassment
in place, or have it shouted from the rooftops.

I'd love to find a way to avoid both.  Unfortunately this small
group of people will not allow it.

Guy (JzG)
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[Alec Conroy-2]

On 11/27/07, Bryan Derksen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alec Conroy wrote:
> > Supposedly, the names of everybody involved has already been revealed
> > by one or more list participants.  Anyone who hasn't come forward
> > before the start of the election is, supposedly, going to have their
> > involvement revealed and substantiated with evidence.  But of course,
> > nobody wants it to come to that--  it would be better for the
> > community (and much less dramatic) if everyone involved comes forward
> > on their own, so atleast until the election starts, THERE IS NO
> > DEADLINE.
>
> {{citation needed}}. This is exactly the sort of secretive "behind the
> scenes" assurances that appears to have caused this train wreck in the
> first place. At this point the only thing I'm willing to accept at face
> value is that there's something nasty going on here, because I've read
> through plenty enough ANI and RfC material in the past hour or so to
> convince me of that much at least.

Most wise.  I wouldn't want my assurances to stop you from fully
investigating on your own.

Every candidate for Arbcom has now officially been asked if they were
involved, and the sitting arbiters who were involved have been asked
to step forward and recuse themselves from the ongoing arbitration.

Having been involved is NOT one of the seven deadly sins, but the
community does have a right to know.  On the other hand, if anyone
can't be trusted to tell the truth about their involvement, they
definitely can't be trusted to occupy an arbcom seat-- in my opinion.
 I actually don't expect we'll have anyone who refuses to level with
the community on this.

Alec

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[Guy Chapman aka JzG]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:39:26 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> List behavior is off-wiki and outside ArbCom's purview.
>Uhhh-- that's a BIG no.  See [[WP:CANVASS]].   Off-wiki behavior is
>considered ALL THE TIME.  

In that case, Alec, consider yourself warned for trolling and
personal attacks.

Guy (JzG)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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[Bryan Derksen]

Bryan Derksen wrote:
> Who's it coming from, then? I'm willing to follow the chain of inquiry
> the hard way, but I feel it should be done in a public and verifiable
> manner otherwise it's pointless.

To follow up on myself and bypass a lot of links in the chain of
inquiry, I've just got to reading some of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Durova_and_Jehochman/Evidence>
and there's a ton of useful information about this mess there. I
should've skipped the RfC and ANI stuff and started with this. Good to
see the ArbCom moving so rapidly.


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[Alec Conroy-2]

On 11/27/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:42:44 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >So, for anyone who doesn't know, it's now come out that there was
> >basically a citizens "militia" of sorts that created secret mailing
> >lists where they coordinated their actions and presented secret
> >evidence against those suspected of being affiliated with a BADSITE.
>
> Absolute, pure, unmitigated bullshit.


Dude-- that's already been admitted to.   The list WAS secret--
Durova's email admits that.  The list DID involve secret evidence
against !!,  we know that. The list WAS made to help people coordinate
their efforts to manage harassment-- you just told me that yourself.
I'm not alleging anything hasn't been revealed already.

> This is a list that includes arbitrators and Jimbo and exists for
> the sole expressed purpose of helping people to better manage
> harassment.

If the two lists were so clear-cut appropriate, why were their
existence such a closely guarded  secret?

If it was totally above board, why wasn't the ENTIRE arbcom included
in the list--  why only send "secret evidence" to some arbiters,
rather than others, if not to 'stack the deck'?

If this behavior was so appropriate, why did the RFC against Durova go
so badly?  Is the community's opinion just not valid?  Has an ARMY of
ED trolls descended on the encyclopedia, posed for years at a time as
regular users, just so they could wait for an RFC against Durova to
magically cast off their loyal-wikipedian persona and criticize her
behavior in using the secret evidence on the secret list?

> You have been told this before, and yet you still posted this
> egregious trolling.  Way to go, Alec.

Thanks Guy--  I always know I can count on you to go personal attack.

Alec

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[Bryan Derksen]

Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:42:44 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So, for anyone who doesn't know, it's now come out that there was
>> basically a citizens "militia" of sorts that created secret mailing
>> lists where they coordinated their actions and presented secret
>> evidence against those suspected of being affiliated with a BADSITE.
>
> Absolute, pure, unmitigated bullshit.
>
> This is a list that includes arbitrators and Jimbo and exists for
> the sole expressed purpose of helping people to better manage
> harassment.

There appear to be two different "secret" mailing lists being referred
to in the ArbCom evidence page, the cyberstalking one at
<http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/wpcyberstalking> and another
one about which little is known. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this.


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[Alec Conroy-2]

On 11/27/07, Bryan Derksen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There appear to be two different "secret" mailing lists being referred
> to in the ArbCom evidence page, the cyberstalking one at
> <http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/wpcyberstalking> and another
> one about which little is known. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this.


Yes, unless I'm mistaken, nobody has publicly revealed the name of
this second "double secret" 'investigative' list, so that'd be the
place to start.  Guy, you're online--  you wanna field this one?

Alec

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[Guy Chapman aka JzG]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:19:11 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Absolute, pure, unmitigated bullshit.

>Dude-- that's already been admitted to.   The list WAS secret--
>Durova's email admits that.  The list DID involve secret evidence
>against !!,  we know that. The list WAS made to help people coordinate
>their efforts to manage harassment-- you just told me that yourself.
>I'm not alleging anything hasn't been revealed already.

No, what you are "revealing" is your own spin on it.  The list is
not secret, it is private.  The two are different.  It does not
exist as a covert "votes for banning", which did not stop Durova
from sending that email.  The list exists to discuss harassment and
its effects.  

>> This is a list that includes arbitrators and Jimbo and exists for
>> the sole expressed purpose of helping people to better manage
>> harassment.

>If the two lists were so clear-cut appropriate, why were their
>existence such a closely guarded  secret?

It wasn't.  It just wasn't advertised.  There was no reason to
advertise it.  We already knew who the victims of harassment on
Wikipedia were, so there was no need to actively solicit others.

>If it was totally above board, why wasn't the ENTIRE arbcom included
>in the list--  why only send "secret evidence" to some arbiters,
>rather than others, if not to 'stack the deck'?

Paranoid fantasy.  People were invited to join who have expressed an
interest in harassment.  Some of these are arbitrators.  This is not
ex-officio, it's an informal list, so inviting the entire
arbitration committee would be unnecessary.  Not all arbitrators
want to wade through a few hundred more emails.

>If this behavior was so appropriate, why did the RFC against Durova go
>so badly?  Is the community's opinion just not valid?  Has an ARMY of
>ED trolls descended on the encyclopedia, posed for years at a time as
>regular users, just so they could wait for an RFC against Durova to
>magically cast off their loyal-wikipedian persona and criticize her
>behavior in using the secret evidence on the secret list?

The RfC against Durova went badly because Durova fucked up badly.
And because there are some people who already hate Durova, some of
whom are the ones who were harassing her.

>> You have been told this before, and yet you still posted this
>> egregious trolling.  Way to go, Alec.

>Thanks Guy--  I always know I can count on you to go personal attack.

False.  I said it was trolling, not that you are a troll. Continuing
to post an inflammatory interpretation that has been contradicted by
someone who has more knowledge of the situation than you have, is
trolling.

You could always try, you know, not doing it.

Guy (JzG)
--
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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[Guy Chapman aka JzG]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:24:26 -0700, Bryan Derksen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>There appear to be two different "secret" mailing lists being referred
>to in the ArbCom evidence page, the cyberstalking one at
><http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/wpcyberstalking> and another
>one about which little is known. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this.

I am on at least three private lists, including both the lists under
discussion.  Jimbo and the arbitrators know about them.

Guy (JzG)
--
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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[Guy Chapman aka JzG]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:25:55 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Yes, unless I'm mistaken, nobody has publicly revealed the name of
>this second "double secret" 'investigative' list, so that'd be the
>place to start.  Guy, you're online--  you wanna field this one?

Sure.  "None of your business".  There ya go.

Guy (JzG)
--
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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[Katie Chan]

On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 17:01 +1000, Peter Ansell wrote:

> On 27/11/2007, Kwan Ting Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 22:17 -0800, Durova wrote:
> > > It's more complicated than that.  Sitting arbiters were on the list.
> > > ******
> > > No, it's quite simple.  I made a bad block.  No grand super-secret cabal
> > > ordered me to make it.  And even if they had, list behavior is off-wiki and
> > > outside ArbCom's purview.
> >
> > When off-wiki list behaviour affects one's action on-wiki, it is /
> > should no longer be outside community and ArbCom's purview.
>
> How do you feel about IRC?

Generally, it's a good place for people with similar interest to hang
out and chat, and also to help people in real time if they have
questions / needing help etc.

In terms of what I said above. The principle ought to apply similarly.
One can't say what happened on X media shouldn't be taken into account,
if what happened on X is what caused you to carry out certain action on
wiki.

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine

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[Alec Conroy-2]

On 11/27/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:25:55 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >Yes, unless I'm mistaken, nobody has publicly revealed the name of
> >this second "double secret" 'investigative' list, so that'd be the
> >place to start.  Guy, you're online--  you wanna field this one?
>
> Sure.  "None of your business".  There ya go.


So, not only WAS it secret, it's still secret, even now, even after
all the uproar about how inappropriate secret lists are?

Alec

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[Christiano Moreschi]

investigations-1. I'm quite sure I've said this somewhere in public, but, then again, maybe not.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:51:32 -0500
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
>
> On 11/27/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:25:55 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, unless I'm mistaken, nobody has publicly revealed the name of
> > >this second "double secret" 'investigative' list, so that'd be the
> > >place to start.  Guy, you're online--  you wanna field this one?
> >
> > Sure.  "None of your business".  There ya go.
>
>
> So, not only WAS it secret, it's still secret, even now, even after
> all the uproar about how inappropriate secret lists are?
>
> Alec
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Christiano Moreschi]

investigations-l, sorry.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:09:35 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
>
>
> investigations-1. I'm quite sure I've said this somewhere in public, but, then again, maybe not.
>
> CM
>
> Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
>
> > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:51:32 -0500
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
> >
> > On 11/27/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:25:55 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yes, unless I'm mistaken, nobody has publicly revealed the name of
> > > >this second "double secret" 'investigative' list, so that'd be the
> > > >place to start.  Guy, you're online--  you wanna field this one?
> > >
> > > Sure.  "None of your business".  There ya go.
> >
> >
> > So, not only WAS it secret, it's still secret, even now, even after
> > all the uproar about how inappropriate secret lists are?
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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[Christiano Moreschi]

Wrong again, make that wpinvestigations-l. Name's changed...

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

----------------------------------------

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:13:14 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
>
>
> investigations-l, sorry.
>
> CM
>
> Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:09:35 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
>>
>>
>> investigations-1. I'm quite sure I've said this somewhere in public, but, then again, maybe not.
>>
>> CM
>>
>> Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:51:32 -0500
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
>>>
>>> On 11/27/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG  wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:25:55 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Yes, unless I'm mistaken, nobody has publicly revealed the name of
>>>>>this second "double secret" 'investigative' list, so that'd be the
>>>>>place to start.  Guy, you're online--  you wanna field this one?
>>>>
>>>> Sure.  "None of your business".  There ya go.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, not only WAS it secret, it's still secret, even now, even after
>>> all the uproar about how inappropriate secret lists are?
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
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[Christiano Moreschi]

Except in wasn't used for sole express purpose of helping people manage harassment, it seems to have been used a fair chunk to bitch about people - some of those maybe deserving, others definitely not. It then spawned a bastard daughter, wpinvestigations-l, which really was used for all sorts of odd purposes and bizarre conversations. This one didn't have Jimbo (as far as I can tell), and it only had a couple arbitrators. Some of the arbitrators appear not have been in on the cyberstalking loop, either.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:05:01 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Missed Opportunities to have avoided the Durova Case
>
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:42:44 -0500, "Alec Conroy"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >So, for anyone who doesn't know, it's now come out that there was
> >basically a citizens "militia" of sorts that created secret mailing
> >lists where they coordinated their actions and presented secret
> >evidence against those suspected of being affiliated with a BADSITE.
>
> Absolute, pure, unmitigated bullshit.
>
> This is a list that includes arbitrators and Jimbo and exists for
> the sole expressed purpose of helping people to better manage
> harassment.
>
> You have been told this before, and yet you still posted this
> egregious trolling.  Way to go, Alec.
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
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[Stephanie M. Clarkson]

Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> False.  I said it was trolling, not that you are a troll. Continuing
> to post an inflammatory interpretation that has been contradicted by
> someone who has more knowledge of the situation than you have, is
> trolling.

Because "I know more about this, so trust me." has worked so well in the past. You've said, 'No, you're wrong!' and seem to be thinking that that is enough argument/contradiction to make him feel everything is ok, then. It doesn't and *shouldn't* work that way.

Guy, the attitude you're pushing here is *exactly* what has ticked off Alec, and had myself (in the RFC) and Bryan (on the list) ruminating that WP:V should apply to every part of Wikipedia decision making.

I mean, I'm no stranger to harassment (tiny harassment); did any of you see/remember the crap that spewed out from my RfA at the start of the month? And yeah, it heppened because I'm a *girl*, in an attempt to rattle me as a member of the fairer sex or something. And I genuinely believe that handling it ON WIKI, where everyone can see what was done, and why it was done, and that it's not acceptable, and the official response, etc., is the best thing in the world. If solutions and responses are taken off wiki so all we see is, 'He was deleted for harassment, everything he's done was oversighted, trust us.' then I have a serious problem with that, and this list, which you're trying to make sound like a little support group to discuss harassment and it's effects on Wikipedia, seems to have the wherewithal to do that, and based on the one obvious case that's happened, does indeed seem to do it. That's very disturbing to me.

Thes.

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[private musings]

Here's a short few points from another in the thick of it;

   - I submitted private information to Guy via email, which he shared
   with this list despite my asking him clearly not to
   - Fellow list members 'reviewed' Guy's blocking of me, reblocked me,
   and then reviewed that block.
   - List members have discussed my editing for almost a month, and as we
   speak are voting in my arbitration case without any on-wiki disclosure

I'm no User:!!, but I've fiddled away trying to help at the encyclopedia for
about 3 years, and am now indefinitely blocked.

Full disclosure - I've edited using 8 accounts over 3 years, any many assert
I've abused both SOCK policy, and BLP at Jonathan King, and Giovanni di
Stefano articles.

Nothing I have done makes the three points above ok.
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