Moral standards

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Moral standards

Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
The high moral standards of the MediaWiki community appeals to me. There
is a general believe these
standards are higher then in "the outside world".

As within any community some persons do not act as they preach.
Especially with larger communities this is unfortunately normal. So this
also may (might) happen within the MW community.

This question seems abstract but seems to me to have practical
consequences. I would like to keep this
discussion abstract to processes and not to specific situations or
persons. Which would only create confusion.

In the end of course the result of this discussion can be used as
reference to be implemented.

How the community act if our high moral standards are abused? Block
legal authorities because these authorities can not fulfil our high
level of moral standards?

With regards,

Bernard

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Re: Moral standards

David Gerard-2
On 28 May 2010 10:09, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> The high moral standards of the MediaWiki community appeals to me. There
> is a general believe these
> standards are higher then in "the outside world".


Counterexample: PHP.


- d.

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Re: Moral standards

Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
David Gerard wrote:

> On 28 May 2010 10:09, [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> The high moral standards of the MediaWiki community appeals to me. There
>> is a general believe these
>> standards are higher then in "the outside world".
>>    
>
>
> Counterexample: PHP.
>
>
> - d.
>  
David, could be less brief? Then it is more easy to respond.

With regards,

Bernard

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Re: Moral standards

Robert Cummings


[hidden email] wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
>> On 28 May 2010 10:09, [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> The high moral standards of the MediaWiki community appeals to me. There
>>> is a general believe these
>>> standards are higher then in "the outside world".
>>>    
>>
>> Counterexample: PHP.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>  
> David, could be less brief? Then it is more easy to respond.

Yes, please elaborate!

Cheers,
Rob.
--
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Re: Moral standards

OQ
In reply to this post by Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:09 AM, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> How the community act if our high moral standards are abused? Block
> legal authorities because these authorities can not fulfil our high
> level of moral standards?
>
> With regards,
>
> Bernard
>

What legal authorities and what moral standards would they violate WRT
mediawiki? Not following the GPL? That's about all I can think of
unless you're confusing wikipedia, mediawiki, and wikimedia. IMO this
question is more appropriate directed at a specific project rather
then at the people writing the software.

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Re: Moral standards

nevio carlos de alarcão
I am not from the list admin team bur I think the proposed subject fits
entirely this mailing list. Exclusively Tech matters should go to tech list,
which is not this case.
Att, Nevio

2010/5/28 OQ <[hidden email]>

> On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:09 AM, [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > How the community act if our high moral standards are abused? Block
> > legal authorities because these authorities can not fulfil our high
> > level of moral standards?
> >
> > With regards,
> >
> > Bernard
> >
>
> What legal authorities and what moral standards would they violate WRT
> mediawiki? Not following the GPL? That's about all I can think of
> unless you're confusing wikipedia, mediawiki, and wikimedia. IMO this
> question is more appropriate directed at a specific project rather
> then at the people writing the software.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>



--
{+}Nevinho
Venha para o Movimento Colaborativo http://sextapoetica.com.br !!
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Re: Moral standards

OQ
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:34 AM, nevio carlos de alarcão
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am not from the list admin team bur I think the proposed subject fits
> entirely this mailing list. Exclusively Tech matters should go to tech list,
> which is not this case.
> Att, Nevio
>

Yes, but this isn't a software question either, it's a community
interaction issue.

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Re: Moral standards

Raymond Wan-2
In reply to this post by nevio carlos de alarcão

Hi all,

Nevio -- I'm not a list admin team either, but I am with OQ.
  It isn't a matter of whether a discussion doesn't belong
on list X, then it must go to Y.  In order for it to be
relative to both X or Y, it should be about the software.
How the software is used and the philosophy behind it falls
outside of all of the Mediawiki mailing lists (it seems
after a quick glance).

Another point is that the mediawiki-l list description falls
under "Help & info for system administrators" and below
that, the comment "If you are having difficulty with your
own installation of MediaWiki, then this is the place to ask
for help."

Perhaps it is just unfortunate that wikipedia, wikimedia,
and mediawiki (especially the last 2) have similar names.
The last one is the software; the first two are two cases of
how they are used, which are perhaps interesting to talk
about elsewhere.

Of course, if you (or Bernard) see some relevance in the
question that I have failed to see, please let me know...

Ray



nevio carlos de alarcão wrote:

> I am not from the list admin team bur I think the proposed subject fits
> entirely this mailing list. Exclusively Tech matters should go to tech list,
> which is not this case.
> Att, Nevio
>
> 2010/5/28 OQ <[hidden email]>
>
>> On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:09 AM, [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> How the community act if our high moral standards are abused? Block
>>> legal authorities because these authorities can not fulfil our high
>>> level of moral standards?
>>>
>>> With regards,
>>>
>>> Bernard
>>>
>> What legal authorities and what moral standards would they violate WRT
>> mediawiki? Not following the GPL? That's about all I can think of
>> unless you're confusing wikipedia, mediawiki, and wikimedia. IMO this
>> question is more appropriate directed at a specific project rather
>> then at the people writing the software.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MediaWiki-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>>
>
>
>


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Re: Moral standards

nevio carlos de alarcão
>
> Of course, if you (or Bernard) see some relevance in the
> question that I have failed to see, please let me know...
>

Dear, I see your point. However I think we are a community either and, and
from this point of view, I think we should address this subject.
Respectfully

2010/5/28 Raymond Wan <[hidden email]>

>
> Hi all,
>
> Nevio -- I'm not a list admin team either, but I am with OQ.
>  It isn't a matter of whether a discussion doesn't belong
> on list X, then it must go to Y.  In order for it to be
> relative to both X or Y, it should be about the software.
> How the software is used and the philosophy behind it falls
> outside of all of the Mediawiki mailing lists (it seems
> after a quick glance).
>
> Another point is that the mediawiki-l list description falls
> under "Help & info for system administrators" and below
> that, the comment "If you are having difficulty with your
> own installation of MediaWiki, then this is the place to ask
> for help."
>
> Perhaps it is just unfortunate that wikipedia, wikimedia,
> and mediawiki (especially the last 2) have similar names.
> The last one is the software; the first two are two cases of
> how they are used, which are perhaps interesting to talk
> about elsewhere.
>
> Of course, if you (or Bernard) see some relevance in the
> question that I have failed to see, please let me know...
>
> Ray
>
>
>
> nevio carlos de alarcão wrote:
> > I am not from the list admin team bur I think the proposed subject fits
> > entirely this mailing list. Exclusively Tech matters should go to tech
> list,
> > which is not this case.
> > Att, Nevio
> >
> > 2010/5/28 OQ <[hidden email]>
> >
> >> On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:09 AM, [hidden email]
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> How the community act if our high moral standards are abused? Block
> >>> legal authorities because these authorities can not fulfil our high
> >>> level of moral standards?
> >>>
> >>> With regards,
> >>>
> >>> Bernard
> >>>
> >> What legal authorities and what moral standards would they violate WRT
> >> mediawiki? Not following the GPL? That's about all I can think of
> >> unless you're confusing wikipedia, mediawiki, and wikimedia. IMO this
> >> question is more appropriate directed at a specific project rather
> >> then at the people writing the software.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MediaWiki-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
>



--
{+}Nevinho
Venha para o Movimento Colaborativo http://sextapoetica.com.br !!
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Re: Moral standards

Raymond Wan-2

nevio carlos de alarcão wrote:
>> Of course, if you (or Bernard) see some relevance in the
>> question that I have failed to see, please let me know...
> Dear, I see your point. However I think we are a community either and, and
> from this point of view, I think we should address this subject.
> Respectfully


Nevio -- you are right that we should discuss such topics
since we are part of the community.  What I am trying to say
is that there are other venues (other mailing lists) to talk
about them.

Unwillingness to talk about such topics *here* does not
imply we never want to talk about them.  It is only about
keeping mailing lists on-topic.

And there is no such thing as "just once" because it will
happen again and again (second time in recent memory,
actually...).

Ray


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Re: Moral standards

Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
In reply to this post by nevio carlos de alarcão
nevio carlos de alarcão wrote:

>> Of course, if you (or Bernard) see some relevance in the
>> question that I have failed to see, please let me know...
>>
>>    
>
> Dear, I see your point. However I think we are a community either and, and
> from this point of view, I think we should address this subject.
> Respectfully
>
> 2010/5/28 Raymond Wan <[hidden email]>
>
>  
Thanks all for responding. It is indeed about the community. And I do
agree Wikipedia, Wikimedia and MediaWiki are different although close
related. The subject is not about Wikipedia. On Wikipedia there is a
well structured procedures, even some automated implemented, about moral
standards and how to act if they are abused. If we didn't have them for
Wikipedia, the content of Wikipedia could not have been close to the
quality we have now.

It is about the community with different actors in it. If we are able to
define moral standards and how to act if abused I think the quality of
the community and the pleasure working in it will increase.

With regards,

Bernard



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Re: Moral standards

Zak Greant (Foo Associates)
Greetings All,

Is this the right list for discussing this issue?  Somehow, an open
discussion of community ethics doesn't seem relevant to "MediaWiki
announcements and site admin".

I'm new here, so maybe I just don't know that the list has strayed
from its stated purpose (and everyone is OK with this.)

When we do find the right list for the discussion, I'm happy to pitch
in some thoughts on the matter.

Cheers!
--zak

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Re: Moral standards

Steve VanSlyck
In reply to this post by Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
I for one have no clue what the subject is, othe than morality in general. I am not interested in discussing morality on this list, even as it relates to software or use there of. As far as I can see it's completely off topic.

----- Original Message -----
From: nevio carlos de alarcão
I see your point. However I think we are a community either and, and from this point of view, I think we should address this subject.



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Re: Moral standards

Chad
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Steve VanSlyck <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I for one have no clue what the subject is, othe than morality in general. I am not interested in discussing morality on this list, even as it relates to software or use there of. As far as I can see it's completely off topic.
>

+1

-Chad

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Re: Moral standards

Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
Chad wrote:

> On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Steve VanSlyck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> I for one have no clue what the subject is, othe than morality in general. I am not interested in discussing morality on this list, even as it relates to software or use there of. As far as I can see it's completely off topic.
>>
>>    
>
> +1
>
> -Chad
>
>  

Its a meta discussion about the this community. Lets assume this
discussion is continued in an other newsgroup. And lets asume the result
would be quite weird. For example our moral standards would be that
everyone is obligated to use their full real name in this newsgroup. Or
on the contrary everyone would be obligated to use a nickname. With this
result we would come back to this newsgroup as "our moral standards".
Let me guess, that would not never be accepted. Which seems quite
logical to me.

So what if our moral standards can not be discussed? Don't we have any
moral standards?

With regards,

Bernard




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Re: Moral standards

Raymond Wan-2


[hidden email] wrote:

> Its a meta discussion about the this community. Lets assume this
> discussion is continued in an other newsgroup. And lets asume the result
> would be quite weird. For example our moral standards would be that
> everyone is obligated to use their full real name in this newsgroup. Or
> on the contrary everyone would be obligated to use a nickname. With this
> result we would come back to this newsgroup as "our moral standards".
> Let me guess, that would not never be accepted. Which seems quite
> logical to me.
>
> So what if our moral standards can not be discussed? Don't we have any
> moral standards?


When you say "moral standards can not be discussed", you are
alluding to some kind of censorship.  You *can* discuss it,
but in another venue which is more specific to that topic.

I'm not sure if this falls under "moral standards" as
defined by you, but one "standard" on mailing lists is to
join the list, see what type of messages appear as they come
in or in archives, and post messages that stay on topic.  I
think if you look back at the archives, you will notice that
your question is probably off-topic.  Please see for yourself:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-l/

So, no one is picky on you specifically or your
enthusiasm...it's just (AFAIK) not on topic to this list...


Ray


PS:  +1 to Steve and Chad...


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Re: Moral standards

David Gerard-2
On 29 May 2010 10:18, Raymond Wan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, no one is picky on you specifically or your
> enthusiasm...it's just (AFAIK) not on topic to this list...


Indeed. Hence my joke about the immorality of PHP ;-)

Mediawiki is free software, per the free software definition[1]:

    * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose.
    * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to
make it do what you wish.
    * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor.
    * The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others.

Note that the first of these precludes moral restrictions on reuse of
the program. You may consider this problematic, but freedom is
considered by many to be the more important moral imperative.

Discussion of use is not entirely off-topic here - witness the recent
discussion on the efficacy of using a WYSIWYG editor on an intranet
installation of MediaWiki. But again, that addresses pure utility,
rather than moral considerations per se.

So It's not clear how moral considerations are relevant to the list,
if not entirely off-topic.


[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html


- d.

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Re: Moral standards

Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl

> Mediawiki is free software, per the free software definition[1]:
>
>     * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose.
>     * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to
> make it do what you wish.
>     * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor.
>     * The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others.
>
> Note that the first of these precludes moral restrictions on reuse of
> the program. You may consider this problematic, but freedom is
> considered by many to be the more important moral imperative.
>  
That is a moral standard. Freedom is more important then moral
imperative. Thanks. But unfortunately this moral standard is not used on
Wikipedia itself. I do not have the freedom to vandalise Wikipedia. If I
would do so there are procedures to stop me. And I do agree these
procedure are there.

So the moral standard on Wikipedia seems to be the contrary of the moral
standards in this newsgroup. That is possible but inconsistent.

I think this community can manage a discussion on moral standards,
although it seems far away from the daily activity in this newsgroup.

Discussion on moral standards are always a bit painful. Why a discussion
if there is no problem? Why talking when you can prevent talking?
There is an other large organisation who pretend there moral standards
are higher then the outside world. I see some steps :
First : There was denial.
Second : Complains could go to a subdepartment nobody new and nobody
cares about.
Third : Our moral standards are so high we can solve this ourself
Fourth : They accept the moral standards of the outside world also
applies to them

As a very old and slow organisation all of this took many years and is
still not finished.

Let I be clear; I do like the community, I do like the MediaWiki
software I do like quality, and to improve quality, and I do like high
moral standards.

> Discussion of use is not entirely off-topic here - witness the recent
> discussion on the efficacy of using a WYSIWYG editor on an intranet
> installation of MediaWiki. But again, that addresses pure utility,
> rather than moral considerations per se.
>
> So It's not clear how moral considerations are relevant to the list,
> if not entirely off-topic.[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>
>
> - d.
I started to say I wanted to prevent to talk about concrete situations
and persons. That would make the discussion nasty and not productive.
But take my word, this discussion is very relevant for this newsgroup if
I read the kind of questions and answers posted in this newsgroup.

With regards,

Bernard

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Re: Moral standards

David Gerard-2
On 29 May 2010 13:27, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> So the moral standard on Wikipedia seems to be the contrary of the moral
> standards in this newsgroup. That is possible but inconsistent.


Wikipedia is actually pretty much off-topic here. If you want to
discuss problems you're having on Wikipedia, this is absolutely not
the place for it.


- d.

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Re: Moral standards

Steve VanSlyck
In reply to this post by Bernard@bernardHulsman.nl
I just don't wanna have the discussion here. As a matter of fact,
'''most''' of the messages here are not about announcements and site
admin, but they are about MediaWiki.

----- Original Message -----
> Its a meta discussion about the this community....

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