My fading out

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My fading out

DaB.-2
Hello guys,

I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last
time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the
Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less
work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this
early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like
not just to vanish like some roots before.

There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end
of the Toolserver in December 2014.

Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will
be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.

Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6
months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half
or beyond.

Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the
Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum.
One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it
is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1
timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s>
roadmap for migration [1].
Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or
the move to) is "klasse" (~great).
It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of
WMDE.

Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these
few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year
– a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude
that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.
While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver-
wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the
horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely.
And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs
with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they
are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel.
With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against
ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same
environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases
like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need
the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!

I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will
fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for
something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there
(not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the
general meeting of WMDE).

These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the
WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does
not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the
WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF
does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the
WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF
is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever
the WMF staff decides will happen.
Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow,
unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.

Sincerely,
DaB.
 

[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en
[2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey


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Re: My fading out

Huib Laurens
Dab,

Thank you for all your Work.

Best,

Huib

Op woensdag 29 mei 2013 schreef DaB. ([hidden email]) het volgende:
Hello guys,

I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last
time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the
Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less
work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this
early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like
not just to vanish like some roots before.

There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end
of the Toolserver in December 2014.

Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will
be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.

Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6
months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half
or beyond.

Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the
Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum.
One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it
is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1
timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s>
roadmap for migration [1].
Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or
the move to) is "klasse" (~great).
It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of
WMDE.

Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these
few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year
– a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude
that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.
While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver-
wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the
horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely.
And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs
with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they
are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel.
With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against
ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same
environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases
like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need
the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!

I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will
fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for
something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there
(not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the
general meeting of WMDE).

These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the
WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does
not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the
WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF
does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the
WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF
is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever
the WMF staff decides will happen.
Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow,
unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.

Sincerely,
DaB.


[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en
[2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey


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Met vriendelijke groet, 

Huib Laurens


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Re: My fading out

K. Peachey-2
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
R.I.P. T.S. *flowers*

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Re: My fading out

Kolossos
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
Hello,
so many wonderful things were created at Toolserver, so many nice
cooperation’s with other users happen here and so many things I learn on
Toolserver. I don't want look back in anger.

I know that all of these was only possible with your work Dab. So thank
you very much.

A modification/restart of Toolserver seems for me after the years so or
so necessary and perhaps we can find in the next 6 months a concept for
a leaner, powerful Toolserver that gives the WMDE flexibility and
independence back to develop ideas and support free projects. Hardware
support is for me still a very good way of spending money if we want to
support free knowledge, but it makes in my eyes no sense to fight
against the majority of WMDE.

Greetings Tim alias Kolossos

Am 29.05.2013 15:09, schrieb DaB.:

> Hello guys,
>
> I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last
> time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the
> Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less
> work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this
> early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like
> not just to vanish like some roots before.
>
> There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end
> of the Toolserver in December 2014.
>
> Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will
> be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
>
> Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6
> months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half
> or beyond.
>
> Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the
> Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum.
> One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it
> is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1
> timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s>
> roadmap for migration [1].
> Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or
> the move to) is "klasse" (~great).
> It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of
> WMDE.
>
> Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
> The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these
> few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year
> – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude
> that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.
> While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver-
> wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the
> horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely.
> And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs
> with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they
> are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel.
> With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against
> ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same
> environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases
> like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need
> the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
>
> I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will
> fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for
> something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there
> (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the
> general meeting of WMDE).
>
> These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the
> WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does
> not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the
> WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF
> does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the
> WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF
> is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever
> the WMF staff decides will happen.
> Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow,
> unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en
> [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Toolserver-announce mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-announce
>



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Re: My fading out

Tim Landscheidt
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
(anonymous) wrote

> I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last
> time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the
> Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less
> work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this
> early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like
> not just to vanish like some roots before.

> [...]

JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.

Democratic toolserver?  Was there a vote on the addition of
new volunteer roots, or did someone just oppose it because
they might not fit his personal agenda?  Who made it a rule,
"if someone phones my mother, they lose their account"?

No documentation on the wiki by the users?  I can't find
*any* mention of z-dat-s1-a and the other stuff *you* cre-
ated on the wiki, and the only person who could have docu-
mented it would have been *you*.  The times when you brought
down the Toolserver by rebooting machines whose setups had
not been documented -- should users have done that?

At least Platonides and I contributed patches to JIRA to fix
existing bugs.  It was neither WMDE, Pavel nor the GA that
stood in the way to apply those fixes.

"Fading out"?  You have been gone as a system administrator
for a long time.  On April 30th, you said on IRC: "I have a
working cluster with commons+wikipedia here :-)", while ac-
tual Toolserver users had been complaining about replication
lag and almost daily LDAP outages for months.  You used your
Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for
political campaigning.  You neither fixed the simple issues
nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration
that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked
any offer of help.

Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the
blame on others.  The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of
patience with you and your quirks.

Tim


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Re: My fading out

DaB.-2
Hello,
At Wednesday 29 May 2013 22:17:22 DaB. wrote:

> (anonymous) wrote
>
> > I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the
> > last time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of
> > the Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing
> > less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I
> > announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that
> > will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
> >
> > [...]
>
> JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.
>
> Democratic toolserver?  Was there a vote on the addition of
> new volunteer roots, or did someone just oppose it because
> they might not fit his personal agenda?  Who made it a rule,
> "if someone phones my mother, they lose their account"?
I never said that the toolserver was democratic. And like every root I can
make rules as I please, yes.

>
> No documentation on the wiki by the users?  I can't find
> *any* mention of z-dat-s1-a and the other stuff *you* cre-
> ated on the wiki, and the only person who could have docu-
> mented it would have been *you*.  The times when you brought
> down the Toolserver by rebooting machines whose setups had
> not been documented -- should users have done that?

You can not find any information about z-dat-s1-a because there is no such
server; there is only z-dat-s1-b. And that is a non-userland-server so I do
not see why you need a documentation about it (BTW the solaris-zone-servers
has not that much documentation too) – it is enough if the other roots know
about it.
And when I brought the toolserver down the last time because of a reboot that
was not announced?

>
> At least Platonides and I contributed patches to JIRA to fix
> existing bugs.  It was neither WMDE, Pavel nor the GA that
> stood in the way to apply those fixes.
>
> "Fading out"?  You have been gone as a system administrator
> for a long time.  On April 30th, you said on IRC: "I have a
> working cluster with commons+wikipedia here :-)", while ac-
> tual Toolserver users had been complaining about replication
> lag and almost daily LDAP outages for months.
I do not see the problem with the quote, because it compared the Toolserver
with Labs and what I said was (and AFAIK is still) true. And yes, users
complained about a high replag since months and so do I – but unfortunately I
can not snip with my fingers and the problems are gone; money is needed here.
The LDAP is another thing and yes it is partly my fault because I feared to
touch it.

> You used your
> Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for
> political campaigning.  You neither fixed the simple issues
> nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration
> that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked
> any offer of help.

What a pity that you discovered my secret run for the CEO of the WMF! The plan
to piss of some important people and keep complaining about a project neither
WMDE nor WMF likes, should have work so well…. Just to calibrate you a little
bit: I have no pretension for any political post – inside or outside of the
Wikimedia universe. The only "job" I do that is elected is one nearly nobody
else likes to do.

>
> Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the
> blame on others.  The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of
> patience with you and your quirks.

And I’m thankful for the patience.

>
> Tim

Sincerely,
DaB.

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Re: My fading out

Marlen Caemmerer-3
Hello,


>
>> > less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I
>> > announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that
>> > will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
>> >
>> > [...]
>>
>> JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.
>>

It might seem so but I dont know if anyone can imagine how frustrating this administration can be.
One tries to repair something but already when you want to start something else is broken and you first go fix it.
This happens since I am working on TS.
I guess DaB has the same problem and if this was my spare time project I probably would have quit before.

As far as I know DaB put a lot of this time into TS.

>
>> You used your
>> Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for
>> political campaigning.  You neither fixed the simple issues
>> nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration
>> that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked
>> any offer of help.
>

Well finally I think it really was a good idea to force a road map for this project.
Forcing this worked I think best from the community side.

Fixing all these little issues is really sometimes harder then it might look from the outside.

>> Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the
>> blame on others.  The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of
>> patience with you and your quirks.
>
>And I’m thankful for the patience.

I dont think there will be any other admin that does make no mistakes here.
The infrastructure of TS is quite flat and not always much redundancy so users will notice.
Additionally the system has such a lot of little things working together that this just happens.

And yes, it makes sense to build something new from the start as Kolossos said.

Thank you, DaB for volunteering here so patiently.


Kind regards
  Marlen/nosy


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Re: My fading out

Alex Brollo
Recently I needed help, and I got it from DaB - a kind and fast support. 
I can't say but thanks, DaB.

Alex


2013/5/29 Marlen Caemmerer <[hidden email]>
Hello,




> less and less work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I
> announce that this early because I think it is fair for you to know that
> will happen and I like not just to vanish like some roots before.
> > [...]

JFC, what a bunch of self-pitying bullshit.


It might seem so but I dont know if anyone can imagine how frustrating this administration can be.
One tries to repair something but already when you want to start something else is broken and you first go fix it.
This happens since I am working on TS.
I guess DaB has the same problem and if this was my spare time project I probably would have quit before.

As far as I know DaB put a lot of this time into TS.



You used your
Toolserver privileges at least in the last year mainly for
political campaigning.  You neither fixed the simple issues
nor planned ahead for example the Solaris to Linux migration
that then had to be done in a jiffy, but actively blocked
any offer of help.


Well finally I think it really was a good idea to force a road map for this project.
Forcing this worked I think best from the community side.

Fixing all these little issues is really sometimes harder then it might look from the outside.


Everybody has the right to leave, but don't try to put the
blame on others.  The Toolserver users have had a *lot* of
patience with you and your quirks.

And I’m thankful for the patience.

I dont think there will be any other admin that does make no mistakes here.
The infrastructure of TS is quite flat and not always much redundancy so users will notice.
Additionally the system has such a lot of little things working together that this just happens.

And yes, it makes sense to build something new from the start as Kolossos said.

Thank you, DaB for volunteering here so patiently.


Kind regards
        Marlen/nosy


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Re: My fading out

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Kolossos
Kolossos wrote:
>so many wonderful things were created at Toolserver, so many nice
>cooperation’s with other users happen here and so many things I learn on
>Toolserver. I don't want look back in anger.

Yes! :-)  I think if someone proposed a Toolserver today, people would
object for legal reasons and technical reasons and whatever else. But much
like Wikipedia, the Toolserver somewhat inexplicably just works. Giving
people a place to collaborate, to share, and to access data insanely fast
is a beautiful thing.

>I know that all of these was only possible with your work Dab. So thank
>you very much.

My thanks as well. In my opinion, even being a paid sysadmin is annoying
and awful. I can't imagine being in this kind of volunteer position for
years. Thank you, DaB.!
 
>A modification/restart of Toolserver seems for me after the years so or
>so necessary and perhaps we can find in the next 6 months a concept for
>a leaner, powerful Toolserver that gives the WMDE flexibility and
>independence back to develop ideas and support free projects. Hardware
>support is for me still a very good way of spending money if we want to
>support free knowledge, but it makes in my eyes no sense to fight
>against the majority of WMDE.

Yes. I think building out infrastructure that would allow individual
Wikimedia chapters (or other organizations) to set up their own
Toolservers would be wonderful. With AWS and other hosting services coming
down in price, it seems like it would be a great investment. The Poles
have their own Toolserver (<http://tools.wikimedia.pl/>). And obviously
the Germans have one. ;-)  I've been trying to grow the idea of an
American Toolserver. We'll see what happens.

All that said, Tim L. had some very good points. There are plenty of
lessons to be learned from the Toolserver, I think. The _user to root
ratio_ in particular needs a lot of consideration for any future
iterations. It frustrates me as much as anyone else that we have hundreds
of Toolserver users, of which at least a dozen would be capable and
willing to donate their expertise and time to serve as a root, and yet
there was basically a root lock-out for years.

And as I've previously mentioned on this list, stability is a wonderful
thing. Not unreasonable expectations about uptime or anything like that,
but just making a good effort to avoid breaking changes when possible
(e.g., OS or Web server or job scheduling changes) and avoiding
complications where possible (KISS).

There's lots to learn from German Toolserver I, but I don't regret the
experience. My thanks to River, DaB., and everyone else who's helped over
the years.

MZMcBride



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Re: My fading out

Jonas Xavier
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
Hello,

I just want to say: Toolserver is absolutely awesome. Take a look at freeshell communities and you will see what I mean. To be Deutsch-frendly: Ich bin dir für deine unglaubliche Arbeit dankbar.

Question: What will happen to all efforts and resources? By efforts and resources I mean: the wiki, hardware, domains, etc. What Kolossos wrote seems good, even of mine foreign point of view.
-- 
Jonas: [hidden email]

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~~~~~~~~~~ - 

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Re: My fading out

Nikola Smolenski-2
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
On 29/05/13 15:09, DaB. wrote:
> Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
> The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these
> few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year
> – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude
> that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.

I am really sorry that you feel this way. From everything saw, as a
volunteer root you were exceedingly professional - more than most
professional roots I know.

For some reasone the survey missed me, and I'd probably answer "not move
at all". But I believe it's not that people don't care, and that most
would stay on the Toolserver were that an option, but it isn't and they
see there is nothing they could do.

> These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the
> WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does
> not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the
> WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF
> does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the
> WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF
> is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever
> the WMF staff decides will happen.

Unfortunately, I have to agree, these are all reasonable possibilities.

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Re: My fading out

Carl (CBM)
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Nikola Smolenski <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am really sorry that you feel this way. From everything saw, as a volunteer root you were exceedingly professional - more than most professional roots I know.

I would like to second that sentiment. Regardless of the problems with funding and other support from the WMDE and WMF, I have always found the toolserver a friendly environment with helpful and friendly sysadmins. 
 
For some reasone the survey missed me, and I'd probably answer "not move at all". But I believe it's not that people don't care, and that most would stay on the Toolserver were that an option, but it isn't and they see there is nothing they could do.

I think this is the case. As one person wrote on the survey, "I didn't want to [move to wmflabs] but, from what I gathered, it toolserver was going to die no matter what."  That sums up my feelings relatively well. 

- Carl 

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Re: [Toolserver-announce] My fading out

Silke Meyer
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
Hallo DaB.,

(German for a safer choice of words)

danke für Dein jahrelanges Engagement. Ich kann selbst höchstens
ahnen, was es bedeutet, ein Projekt wie den Toolserver zu
administrieren. Aber ich denke, alle Achtung, sowas ehrenamtlich zu
stemmen, ist echt eine große Nummer.
Danke auch für Deine Fairness, uns so früh Bescheid zu sagen bzw.
Deine frühere Ankündigung jetzt so verbindlich zu wiederholen. Das
schätze ich sehr, ebenso wie Deine Bereitschaft, Dein Wissen
weiterzugeben, bevor Du Dich zurückziehst.
Und schließlich auch danke für Deine ehrliche Mail. Ich finde Deine
Entscheidung schade, Deine Gründe sind für mich aber auch
nachvollziehbar.

Silke



2013/5/29 DaB. <[hidden email]>:

> Hello guys,
>
> I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last
> time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the
> Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less
> work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this
> early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like
> not just to vanish like some roots before.
>
> There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end
> of the Toolserver in December 2014.
>
> Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will
> be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.
>
> Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6
> months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half
> or beyond.
>
> Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the
> Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum.
> One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it
> is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1
> timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s>
> roadmap for migration [1].
> Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or
> the move to) is "klasse" (~great).
> It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of
> WMDE.
>
> Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
> The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these
> few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year
> – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude
> that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.
> While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver-
> wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the
> horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely.
> And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs
> with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they
> are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel.
> With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against
> ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same
> environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases
> like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need
> the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!
>
> I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will
> fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for
> something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there
> (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the
> general meeting of WMDE).
>
> These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the
> WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does
> not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the
> WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF
> does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the
> WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF
> is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever
> the WMF staff decides will happen.
> Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow,
> unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en
> [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey
>
>
> --
> Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885
>
> _______________________________________________
> Toolserver-announce mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-announce
>



--
Silke Meyer
Internes IT-Management und Projektmanagement Toolserver

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 260

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

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Re: My fading out

DaB.-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Xavier
Hello,
At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:52:04 DaB. wrote:
>  By efforts and
> resources I mean: the wiki, hardware, domains, etc.

the wiki (together with JIRA and maybe also the SVN) will vanish together with
the toolserver. The plan for the hardware is AFAIk to donate it like WMF does
it with their old stuff. I have no idea about the domain at the moment, but
maybe WMF could use it to set up a redirect-server – or it will vanish too.

Sincerely,
DaB.

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Re: My fading out

DaB.-2
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
Hello all,
At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:59:00 DaB. wrote:
> Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.

after reading some mails here and in my inbox I would like to make this point
a little bit more clear.
For first I would like to say sorry. It was not my intension to play down the
role of the tool-authors for the Toolserver. The Toolserver can not work
without you. It happened several times in the past that I was surprised what
tools are possible and sometimes I was also surprised that some strange tools
really have many users (that’s the reason I was always very liberal of account
requests). And yes some of you help other users with problems (sometimes
better than I could), some of you have written how-tos in the wiki, some of
you are helping the roots with problems and some of you have offer help or
asked for root-rights.

The reason I added reason 4 to my mail was disappointment. In my imagination
(and I guess that was naive) I thought that when ToolLabs would be ready some
day, that 99% of you would just ignore that and continue your work here. I
also though that when 2013 ends almost all tools would still be here and only
a few tools were moved for experiment (maybe some would even moved back
again). I also hoped that the survey would had a bigger participation (>50%
and not 10-20%) and that the result would be "stay as long as possible" or
"not move at all". With all that I would have travel to the coming general
member meeting of WMDE in December to tell the members "The Toolserver has to
stay because the tool-authors will not move to ToolLabs, and we need money!".
The problem is that something different happened. The result of the survey is
that most of you plan to move as soon as possible, some of you writing howtos
about moving, and a user told us already how fast ToolLabs is (@Platonides:
no, I’m not angry about that). So when I travel to the general member meeting
of WMDE (isn’t there a shorter word in English?) and I’m asked "How is the
Toolserver? Can you account for more money?" I have to answer "No, the tool-
authors have accepted ToolLabs and more money for the toolserver would be
wasting.".
In German there is the phrase "Mit den Füßen abstimmen" (~to vote with the
foots). It means that people show their affection not in a formal election but
by using a thing (and not another), or go shopping in a store (and not in
another), or visiting a place (and not another) or so on. You have done
something similar. Not all of you, maybe not even the majority, but at least a
visible minority. You gave me the impression that you think that the
Toolserver is dead, that it is not worth the fight, that WMF has already won.
You were the last group I had that supported me with the Toolserver. I had
already lost the WMDE’s CEO, the general member meeting and also WMDE’s board.
Loosing you made it pointless to continue the struggle.

Like I said: It was naive. I can not resent you that you like to move to a
place that has a future, may be faster and maybe better administrated. I can
not resent WMDE that they don’t see that loosing the Toolserver is another
step to become more dependent of the WMF. But it hurts nevertheless, because
it makes me think that I did something wrong.



I would like to add another point: It is a long time until the end of 2013 –
I’m not gone yet. I will continue to administrate the Toolserver, and also
create new accounts if wished (somebody asked about that). I will just not
invest the same amount of time; and how further the year becomes the less time
I will invest.

Sincerely,
DaB.



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Re: My fading out

Marc-Andre
On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote:
> that WMF has already won

I did not wish to intervene in this thread, DaB, out of respect and
admiration for your dedication; but this I cannot let by uncommented.

The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or
battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with.  My concern
- and that of the Foundation - align exactly with yours: provide a good
and stable environment for community developers to do their work with
the least possible fuss.

You sincerely believe that the Toolserver was and is the best solution
towards that objective.  I disagree, and think that the Foundation has
more resources to set up and upkeep that environment and to insure its
future.  Either way, it's the developer community that "wins",
regardless of where the actual environment ends up being.

This does not, in any way, diminish the value of what you have done, or
of the effort you have expended in doing it.  The Toolserver served its
purpose very well for a number of years!  We have simply reached a point
where the continued maintenance of such a critical service living
outside the infrastructure remains rational.

I am saddened that you felt that the Foundation was an enemy to protect
against when we are plainly working towards the same ends.  That we are
in a position to support the developer community with more resources
should be cause to celebrate, not bemoan.  The Toolserver deserves a
retirement with honors, not a bitter parting.

-- Marc


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Re: My fading out

DaB.-2
At Friday 31 May 2013 01:24:38 DaB. wrote:
> On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote:
> > that WMF has already won
> The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or
> battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with.  

sorry, but that’s untrue. The hole thing started as WMF announced to WMDE that
WMF will stop to provide database-replication and database-dumps in the
future. For this reason the CEO of WMDE claimed that further investments in
the Toolserver would be a waste of money (he also assure the general member
meeting with that). If that is not "adversarial" I have no idea what is.


> My concern
> - and that of the Foundation - align exactly with yours: provide a good
> and stable environment for community developers to do their work with
> the least possible fuss.

The Toolserver is not just a place where you can put a program and run it or
host a website. It’s a living community creating stuff in a anarchic way that
works only in praxis but not in theory; it’s like Wikipedia. WikiLabs is more
like Nupedia – in theory it is better, but in praxis it is empty and cold. The
difference is that for Nupedia Jimbo accepted that it can not work and stopped
it, and forced not Wikipedia user to switch to the _better_ platform. In our
case it is just the way around: After the WMF noticed that nobody needed
WikiLabs that started to look for a problem for their solution, and found the
Toolserver.


>
> You sincerely believe that the Toolserver was and is the best solution
> towards that objective.  I disagree, and think that the Foundation has
> more resources to set up and upkeep that environment and to insure its
> future.  Either way, it's the developer community that "wins",
> regardless of where the actual environment ends up being.
>
> This does not, in any way, diminish the value of what you have done, or
> of the effort you have expended in doing it.  The Toolserver served its
> purpose very well for a number of years!  We have simply reached a point
> where the continued maintenance of such a critical service living
> outside the infrastructure remains rational.
>
> That we are
> in a position to support the developer community with more resources
So the WMF have more money, how great…. WMDE would have enough money to
support the Toolserver and there are other chapters too that offered money. It
is not a matter of "resources" it is a matter of control, because the WMF
controls the database-access. Make your bosses release the threat, offer
ToolLabs as an alternative of the Toolserver and see what’s happening – that
would be a fair fight, and we all know that competition improves a product.

> -- Marc

Sincerely,
DaB.

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Re: My fading out

Kolossos
Am 31.05.2013 02:20, schrieb DaB.:
> The Toolserver is not just a place where you can put a program and run it or
> host a website. It’s a living community creating stuff in a anarchic way that
> works only in praxis but not in theory; it’s like Wikipedia. WikiLabs is more
> like Nupedia – in theory it is better, but in praxis it is empty and cold. The
> difference is that for Nupedia Jimbo accepted that it can not work and stopped
> it, and forced not Wikipedia user to switch to the_better_  platform. In our
> case it is just the way around: After the WMF noticed that nobody needed
> WikiLabs that started to look for a problem for their solution, and found the
> Toolserver.

I take a look at Toollabs, also to be able as a WMDE member to defend
Toolserver. What I found was the opposite of cold and empty.
It cost me only 1 minute to transform my project to a multi-maintainer
project with a co-maintainer. I don't need to change the URL or need to
ask an admin. So anarchic cooperation is really easy. Other things are
very similar to the toolserver so that the community can further riding
on an other horse.

@Dab: If you see it as a fight against WMF, you had never a chance to
win and I can understand your personal tragedy. But in OpenSource field
you can not avoid that somebody takes your idea and copy it. But I say
we can also learn from Toolslabs and should think about after some time
to create a Toolserver 2.0.

Special topic OpenStreetMap:
On toolserver I had the problem that some of my OSM tools "fading out"
over the years because the database become incredible slow as the data
volume grow by factor 5. A solution on Toolserver seems not possible,
also if it would cost (with a SSD) under 1000€. So there was a level of
frustrating and some people leave the project. And so I'm looking for an
other solution to bring my work, my projects and the projects of others
back to life and develop new stuff. I hope now that we will have on labs
a fast OSM database for tools and experiment. (Rendering of popular
styles should run in production environment, not in Labs.)

Greeting Tim alias Kolossos


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Re: My fading out

Pavel Richter-2
In reply to this post by DaB.-2

Dear DaB,


as you've mentioned yourself in your mail, it was only last weekend that you came to Berlin for WMDE's general assembly. I hope you don't mind me adding that you stayed through Sunday in order to join our bar camp / open sunday. Well, and before that you and your fellow volunteer account auditors visited the WMDE office in order to prepare for the report to the general assembly, as you have done for so many years now.


It is with all these examples of volunteer enthusiasm in mind that I have read and re-read your fade-out notice. I can't help but notice that you'll probably have carried all your concerns not only through recent months but also through last weekend. And still, on all of the above mentioned occasions you've shown the same openness, scrutiny and dedication that many people surely have come to know you for.  


I'd like to thank you for those years of continuous support you've been devoting to the Toolserver. The Toolserver would not have been the success it was and still is without your dedication and your know-how.


I think you've made yourself crystal-clear about your feelings and that's all the more reason for me to say how truly regretful it is when different expectations cannot be turned into acceptable solutions for all parties involved.


Your insights will be invaluable to amette and nosy, and I am grateful for your offer to reach out to them. This feels in line with the general attitude you've been displaying to everyone working with you over the past couple of years. Hopefully, you already know how much appreciated your passion, your time and your efforts have been and will be in the future. If you don't, let me please emphasize whole-heartedly that they are most appreciated. You are.


Sincerely,


Pavel Richter
Vorstand

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tel.: +49 - 30 - 219 158 260
Twitter: @pavel


2013/5/29 DaB. <[hidden email]>
Hello guys,

I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last
time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the
Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less
work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this
early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like
not just to vanish like some roots before.

There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end
of the Toolserver in December 2014.

Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will
be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver.

Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6
months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half
or beyond.

Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the
Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum.
One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it
is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1
timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s <s>plan of destruction</s>
roadmap for migration [1].
Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or
the move to) is "klasse" (~great).
It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of
WMDE.

Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors.
The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these
few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year
– a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude
that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year.
While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver-
wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the
horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely.
And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs
with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they
are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel.
With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against
ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same
environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases
like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need
the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit!

I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will
fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for
something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there
(not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the
general meeting of WMDE).

These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the
WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does
not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the
WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF
does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the
WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF
is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever
the WMF staff decides will happen.
Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow,
unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore.

Sincerely,
DaB.


[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en
[2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey


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Re: My fading out

Seb35
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
Le Fri, 31 May 2013 02:20:22 +0200, DaB. <[hidden email]> a écrit:

> At Friday 31 May 2013 01:24:38 DaB. wrote:
>> On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote:
>> > that WMF has already won
>> The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or
>> battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with.
>
> sorry, but that’s untrue. The hole thing started as WMF announced to  
> WMDE that
> WMF will stop to provide database-replication and database-dumps in the
> future. For this reason the CEO of WMDE claimed that further investments  
> in
> the Toolserver would be a waste of money (he also assure the general  
> member
> meeting with that). If that is not "adversarial" I have no idea what is.

Sorry about my naive question, but why WMF didn’t and don’t support the  
Toolserver instead of recreating the same thing? Is there some long  
mailthreads somewhere about that?

Thanks,
~ Seb35

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