My favorite Wikipedia article ever

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My favorite Wikipedia article ever

K P-3
Here's an article about a crash that didn't happen, to two planes on
two different runways, although apparently one is in the take-off line
of the other, where there were no injuries or damages to either
aircraft that didn't crash into each other, with speculation about a
controller error, and no NTSB report yet issued.

I love Wikipedia, Britannica eat your hear out.

Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741

KP

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Charlotte Webb
On 7/6/07, K P <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here's an article about a crash that didn't happen, to two planes on
> two different runways, although apparently one is in the take-off line
> of the other, where there were no injuries or damages to either
> aircraft that didn't crash into each other, with speculation about a
> controller error, and no NTSB report yet issued.
>
> I love Wikipedia, Britannica eat your hear out.
>
> Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
>
> KP

Proves one of my previous points about level of news coverage being
more important than number of casualties.

—C.W.

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by K P-3
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741

Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
Wikinews.

What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

vee-3
In reply to this post by K P-3
On 07/07/07, K P <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Here's an article about a crash that didn't happen, to two planes on
> two different runways, although apparently one is in the take-off line
> of the other, where there were no injuries or damages to either
> aircraft that didn't crash into each other, with speculation about a
> controller error, and no NTSB report yet issued.
>
> I love Wikipedia, Britannica eat your hear out.
>
> Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
>
> KP
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

hehe i love it. i don't really care about 'notability', it's interesting and
informative.
deleting it would be pointless as it would still be kept in our databases.
why hide an otherwise acceptable article?

deletion really should be saved for stuff that is just absolute crap. ("y0uR
M0M!!!!!!" vandalism, etc etc)
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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Brian Salter-Duke-2
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 10:29:23AM +0100, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
>
> Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> Wikinews.
>
> What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?

I suggest that the problem here is the confusion we have about
notability and sources. This has sources. However by any reasonable
criteria, in my humble opinion, it is not encyclopedic. We need to have
a notability set of criteria that decides whether a topic is, well,
notable, i.e important enough to have an article if there are sources,
or not notable so it does not have an article even if there are sources.

Brian.
 

> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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--
          Brian Salter-Duke            [hidden email]  
               [[User:Bduke]]  mainly on en:Wikipedia.
           Also on fr: Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki and Wikiversity


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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Charlotte Webb
On 7/7/07, Brian Salter-Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We need to have a notability set of criteria that decides whether a
> topic is, well, notable, i.e important enough to have an article if there
> are sources, or not notable so it does not have an article even if
> there are sources.

There will always be exceptions on both sides of the line, no matter
how complexly gerrymandered it becomes. Even if it were possible to
create a picture-perfect and binding rubric of "notability", any time
and energy invested such a task would be better spent elsewhere.

—C.W.

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Charlotte Webb
In reply to this post by Brian Salter-Duke-2
On 7/7/07, Brian Salter-Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We need to have a notability set of criteria that decides whether a
> topic is, well, notable, i.e important enough to have an article if
> there are sources, or not notable so it does not have an article
> even if there are sources.

Clear this backlog and then we can talk about how to handle
well-referenced articles that you don't think are important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_lacking_sources

—C.W.

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Charlotte Webb
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On 7/7/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?

Hello Guy

I was not quite baffled, but definitely more than a little bit
surprised when I saw [[Roadkill Bill]] had been kept, but I've gotten
over it. I think that's an important survival skill that most people
take for granted. Good luck and happy editing.

—C.W.

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Brian Salter-Duke-2
In reply to this post by Charlotte Webb
On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 05:08:40AM -0500, Charlotte Webb wrote:

> On 7/7/07, Brian Salter-Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We need to have a notability set of criteria that decides whether a
> > topic is, well, notable, i.e important enough to have an article if there
> > are sources, or not notable so it does not have an article even if
> > there are sources.
>
> There will always be exceptions on both sides of the line, no matter
> how complexly gerrymandered it becomes. Even if it were possible to
> create a picture-perfect and binding rubric of "notability", any time
> and energy invested such a task would be better spent elsewhere.

Note I said "a set of criteria". I agree no simple rubric will do. I
think we need to decentralise the idea of notability even more than we
do and trust the WikiProjects and other subject guidelines as long as
they are all openly and tranparently discussed and consensus reached.

Brian.
 
> ?C.W.
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
          Brian Salter-Duke            [hidden email]  
               [[User:Bduke]]  mainly on en:Wikipedia.
           Also on fr: Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki and Wikiversity


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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Adrian-73
The article didn't really shock me to tell the truth. If you have the
nerves, take a look at [[Professional wrestling]] and some of the
articles it links to.

A commonsense-oriented notability guideline seems as necessary as it
would be difficult to implement, because opposition to such a proposal
can be expected from multiple directions. Some would oppose based on
their fear of deletionist book burnings, others see the strain it would
put on process.

I believe such a proposal could only stand a chance as part of a far
reaching reform, possibly including the abandonment of AfD in its
current form.

Ideas like annex.wikia.com may be one alternative way to address the
issue of articles with non-encyclopedic subjects (fiction related
articles in the case of annex). Nothing beyond the obvious deletion
candidates would really have to be deleted. Instead, such articles could
be moved to annex, awaiting relocation into a more suitable wiki.

But I expect major difficulties explaining "just why" a subject like
[[Professional wrestling aerial techniques]], despite all the references
in the article, isn't fit for its own Wikipedia article. Same goes for
many "recent events" and fiction related pages.

On the other hand, such "outsourcing" efforts could work wonders against
vandalism, much of which happens on subjects with recent news coverage.
And it would probably increase the overall reputation of Wikipedia, too.

Adrian

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by K P-3
On 7/6/07, K P <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here's an article about a crash that didn't happen, to two planes on
> two different runways, although apparently one is in the take-off line
> of the other, where there were no injuries or damages to either
> aircraft that didn't crash into each other, with speculation about a
> controller error, and no NTSB report yet issued.
>
> I love Wikipedia, Britannica eat your hear out.
>
> Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
>
How common is this type of situation?  Are there any other article on
similar situations?

Add a diagram, and merge and redirect with [[runway incursion]]?  The
article does provide a useful description of what seems to be
accurately described as a severe runway incursion (someone with more
knowledge of the terminology feel free to correct).  I found it
interesting to that extent.

Hmm, thinking more about this it is also a good example of the use of
[[AMASS]].  If someone is reading about AMASS, and clicks on [[SkyWest
Airlines flight 5741]] for an example, would they prefer to be linked
to an article this particular incident, or to an article on [[runway
incursion]]?  Probably the former.

I think I'd say keep, or else merge and redirect with [[runway
incursion]].  Outright deletion would seriously detract from the
encyclopedia for those who want to know more about [[AMASS]] and/or
[[runway incursion]]s.

Anthony

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by Brian Salter-Duke-2
On 7/7/07, Brian Salter-Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 10:29:23AM +0100, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
> >
> > Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> > stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> > significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> > Wikinews.
> >
> > What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> > lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> > article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?
>
> I suggest that the problem here is the confusion we have about
> notability and sources. This has sources. However by any reasonable
> criteria, in my humble opinion, it is not encyclopedic. We need to have
> a notability set of criteria that decides whether a topic is, well,
> notable, i.e important enough to have an article if there are sources,
> or not notable so it does not have an article even if there are sources.
>
I don't think it's appropriate for you to call it "confusion" over
notability and sources.  To some people, notability means having
sources.  This isn't due to confusion, it's due to a difference of
opinion.

I hope you'll respond to my last message about how this article plays
an important secondary role in the encyclopedia if not a primary one.
Focusing on whether or not a topic is important enough without looking
at the situation holistically would result in exactly the type of bad
results being suggested here.

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Kurt Maxwell Weber
In reply to this post by Brian Salter-Duke-2
On Saturday 07 July 2007 06:24, Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
> Note I said "a set of criteria". I agree no simple rubric will do. I
> think we need to decentralise the idea of notability even more than we
> do and trust the WikiProjects and other subject guidelines as long as
> they are all openly and tranparently discussed and consensus reached.

You know, I proposed essentially this exact same idea on [[Village
Pump/Proposals]] a year or two ago and I was attacked incessantly under the
assumption that it was just a scheme to enforce my "extreme inclusionist"
stance.
--
Kurt Weber
<[hidden email]>

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

The Cunctator
In reply to this post by Brian Salter-Duke-2
On 7/7/07, Brian Salter-Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 10:29:23AM +0100, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
> >
> > Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> > stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> > significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> > Wikinews.
> >
> > What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> > lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> > article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?
>
> I suggest that the problem here is the confusion we have about
> notability and sources. This has sources. However by any reasonable
> criteria, in my humble opinion, it is not encyclopedic. We need to have
> a notability set of criteria that decides whether a topic is, well,
> notable, i.e important enough to have an article if there are sources,
> or not notable so it does not have an article even if there are sources.

A reasonable definition of "encyclopedic" is "covering all knowledge."
Therefore there exists reasonable criteria by which the article would
be encyclopedic. Your claim that "by any reasonable criteria" the
article is not encyclopedic is not accurate.

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Bryan Derksen
In reply to this post by K P-3
K P wrote:
> Here's an article about a crash that didn't happen, to two planes on
> two different runways, although apparently one is in the take-off line
> of the other, where there were no injuries or damages to either
> aircraft that didn't crash into each other, with speculation about a
> controller error, and no NTSB report yet issued.
>
> I love Wikipedia, Britannica eat your hear out.

One of my old favorites is up for deletion right now, for the fourth
time, and looks likely to go the way of the dodo this time around.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Prime_%28person%29>. Just in time
for the release of the new Transformers movie, too.

It was heavily referenced, non-controversial, and a fun little piece of
trivia. I really don't understand why some editors feel the need to get
rid of such stuff. There are days that Wikipedia makes me depressed.


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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Rory Stolzenberg
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On 7/7/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
>
> Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> Wikinews.
>
> What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


It'll be overturned on DRV, since the AfD closure was invalid and many of
the people who commented seem to have gotten there from canvassing at a
wikiproject anyway.

Rory
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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

K P-3
On 7/7/07, Rory Stolzenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/7/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
> >
> > Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> > stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> > significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> > Wikinews.
> >
> > What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> > lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> > article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?
> >
> > Guy (JzG)
> > --
> > http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> It'll be overturned on DRV, since the AfD closure was invalid and many of
> the people who commented seem to have gotten there from canvassing at a
> wikiproject anyway.
>
> Rory


Here's another good one with "secret sources."  All you tag haters, I
warn you, I've added fact requested tags to the unreferenced
secrets--actually should be removed, probably, on legal grounds, that
we shouldn't be publically speculating about other people's secrets
without references, or for some other reason that the inclusioin of
unreferenced secrets mind boggling fails to allow to make sense.

Cloverfield

If you want to know some secrets, read this.  But don't ask how
Wikipedia knows these secrets, because that's really a secret.

KP

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

George William Herbert
On 7/7/07, K P <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/7/07, Rory Stolzenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 7/7/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
> > >
> > > Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> > > stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> > > significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> > > Wikinews.
> > >
> > > What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> > > lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> > > article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?
> > >
> > > Guy (JzG)
> > > --
> > > http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
> >
> >
> > It'll be overturned on DRV, since the AfD closure was invalid and many of
> > the people who commented seem to have gotten there from canvassing at a
> > wikiproject anyway.
> >
> > Rory
>
>
> Here's another good one with "secret sources."  All you tag haters, I
> warn you, I've added fact requested tags to the unreferenced
> secrets--actually should be removed, probably, on legal grounds, that
> we shouldn't be publically speculating about other people's secrets
> without references, or for some other reason that the inclusioin of
> unreferenced secrets mind boggling fails to allow to make sense.
>
> Cloverfield
>
> If you want to know some secrets, read this.  But don't ask how
> Wikipedia knows these secrets, because that's really a secret.
>
> KP

You did fact-tag at least one thing which is explicitly said in the
(one) reference article, though...


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

K P-3
On 7/7/07, George Herbert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/7/07, K P <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 7/7/07, Rory Stolzenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 7/7/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:45:06 -0700, "K P" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Republic Airlines flight 4912 & SkyWest Airlines flight 5741
> > > >
> > > > Good grief.  We should think about starting a project for news
> > > > stories, where things like this that have absolutely zero lasting
> > > > significance can go.  We could call it,. I don't know, how about...
> > > > Wikinews.
> > > >
> > > > What baffles me even more is that it was kept by AfD.  Are we really
> > > > lowering the bar to the point where every single near miss gets an
> > > > article?  Are we the FAA Wiki now?
> > > >
> > > > Guy (JzG)
> > > > --
> > > > http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
> > >
> > >
> > > It'll be overturned on DRV, since the AfD closure was invalid and many of
> > > the people who commented seem to have gotten there from canvassing at a
> > > wikiproject anyway.
> > >
> > > Rory
> >
> >
> > Here's another good one with "secret sources."  All you tag haters, I
> > warn you, I've added fact requested tags to the unreferenced
> > secrets--actually should be removed, probably, on legal grounds, that
> > we shouldn't be publically speculating about other people's secrets
> > without references, or for some other reason that the inclusioin of
> > unreferenced secrets mind boggling fails to allow to make sense.
> >
> > Cloverfield
> >
> > If you want to know some secrets, read this.  But don't ask how
> > Wikipedia knows these secrets, because that's really a secret.
> >
> > KP
>
> You did fact-tag at least one thing which is explicitly said in the
> (one) reference article, though...
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> [hidden email]
>
Ah, they need to in-line reference known secrets, though.  Especially
when telling the known secret to the wiki world.

It looks like there is some better editing than my slap dash going on,
though, so I won't be too concerned.

Still, what fun, a secret that everyone knows, better yet, a secret
film that already exists before it's been released, and, now, it even
appears to be a film before it's been filmed. But again, a better
editor than I am is taking care of those fun tidbits.

KP

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Re: My favorite Wikipedia article ever

Matthew Brown-5
In reply to this post by Charlotte Webb
On 7/7/07, Charlotte Webb <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Clear this backlog and then we can talk about how to handle
> well-referenced articles that you don't think are important.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_lacking_sources

I wholly agree; we spend way too much time worrying about if something
is important enough or not, and not enough about whether things are
actually verifiable, which is a much bigger issue.

-Matt

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