My meeting with Denis Barthel today

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My meeting with Denis Barthel today

DaB.-2
Hello all,

I just came back from a meeting with Denis Barthel. Denis is a long-time
employee of Wikimedia Deutschland (WMDE) and works in the resort "Community".
Denis was assigned to help to normalize the relationship between the
Toolserver, WMDE and the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF); especially in the field of
WikiLabs/Toollabs. His opinion is that if we all work together the move from
the toolserver to Wikilabs can work. I still doubt that, but I agreed to give
WMF a little more AGF (assume good faith).
As you know the general meeting of WMDE decided that the WMF has to guarantee
that the features of the toolserver exists in WikiLabs within 6 months
(otherwise WMDE has to look for a way to continue the toolserver). Denis asked
me to provide such a list of short-time-base. For this I will take our list
[1] and convert the items into "needed features" (AFAIS most of the points are
already features). When I am done with this I will send you the link and you
all can add features I forgot. In the beginning of the new year WMDE will give
WMF the list and then the 6 months start.
WMDE (or WMDE together with WMF) plans to offer help for moving tools to
WikiLabs in 2013 – during the 6 months and behind if WMF can provide all
needed features. I rejected to help with that behind very basic actions (like
answering questions by WMF-staff). So if you plan to move your stuff, please
notice that I will not wait on the other side and catch you ;-). I also make
it very clear that the only way to move a tool is by the author because you
are the only persons who can adapt the code (the special case that another
user plan to adopt an open-source-tool aside).
To re-phrase it: I have no problem if somebody likes to move to WikiLabs now
and I will help him or her as best as I can – but only on the toolserver-side.
There will be no support by me (and I guess the same for Nosy) on the
WikiLabs-side – there you have to work with the WMF-folks.

Just to let you known.

Sincerely,
DaB.

P.S: Denis asked if there is a list of (important) tools. AFAIK we have none,
but maybe we should find a way to build such a list in medium-term.


[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Labs/Toolserver_features_wanted

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

DaB.-2
Hello again,
At Thursday 20 December 2012 22:18:13 DaB. wrote:
> When I am done with this I will send you the link and you
> all can add features I forgot.

You can find the list at [1]. Please notice that this is not a wishing-list, so
you can only add things that are already available on the toolserver (for
example we have no git, so you can not request that WikiLabs has to have git
as a needed feature).

Have fun.

Sincerely,
DaB.

[1]
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Labs/Toolserver_features_needed_in_Tool_Labs

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Merlijn van Deen
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
On 20 December 2012 16:58, DaB. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> P.S: Denis asked if there is a list of (important) tools. AFAIK we have none,
> but maybe we should find a way to build such a list in medium-term.


I created https://wiki.toolserver.org/submit/User:Valhallasw/enwikitslinks
which has a list of the most linked-to URLS from enwiki to the
toolserver (it also counts every parent folder, so
http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php is counted for
toolserver.org, toolserver.org/~geohack   and
toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php). The scripts to create them are
listed below, so it should be easy to do for other wikis.

Additionally, it might be an idea to browse through
https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Category:Tools,
https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/IRC_bots and
https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/List_of_Wikimedia_bots.

Merlijn

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Petr Onderka
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Merlijn van Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> it also counts every parent folder, so
> http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php is counted for
> toolserver.org, toolserver.org/~geohack   and
> toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php

Then how come http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php has a higher
number than http://toolserver.org/~geohack?

Petr Onderka
[[en:User:Svick]]

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Merlijn van Deen
On 21 December 2012 00:50, Petr Onderka <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Then how come http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php has a higher
> number than http://toolserver.org/~geohack?

Oops. The full url was double-counted - a corrected version is at
https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/User:Valhallasw/enwikitslinks .

Merlijn

On 21 December 2012 00:50, Petr Onderka <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Merlijn van Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> it also counts every parent folder, so
>> http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php is counted for
>> toolserver.org, toolserver.org/~geohack   and
>> toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php
>
> Then how come http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php has a higher
> number than http://toolserver.org/~geohack?
>
> Petr Onderka
> [[en:User:Svick]]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Toolserver-l mailing list ([hidden email])
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
> Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Hazard-SJ
Are you sure that's corrected? It as links in the form http://org.toolserver./~user/tool

 
Hazard-SJ


From: Merlijn van Deen <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Toolserver <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Toolserver-l] My meeting with Denis Barthel today

On 21 December 2012 00:50, Petr Onderka <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Then how come http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php has a higher
> number than http://toolserver.org/~geohack?

Oops. The full url was double-counted - a corrected version is at
https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/User:Valhallasw/enwikitslinks .

Merlijn

On 21 December 2012 00:50, Petr Onderka <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Merlijn van Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> it also counts every parent folder, so
>> http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php is counted for
>> toolserver.org, toolserver.org/~geohack  and
>> toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php
>
> Then how come http://toolserver.org/~geohack/geohack.php has a higher
> number than http://toolserver.org/~geohack?
>
> Petr Onderka
> [[en:User:Svick]]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Toolserver-l mailing list ([hidden email])
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l
> Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Platonides
In reply to this post by DaB.-2
On 20/12/12 16:58, DaB. wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I just came back from a meeting with Denis Barthel. Denis is a long-time
> employee of Wikimedia Deutschland (WMDE) and works in the resort "Community".
> Denis was assigned to help to normalize the relationship between the
> Toolserver, WMDE and the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF); especially in the field of
> WikiLabs/Toollabs. His opinion is that if we all work together the move from
> the toolserver to Wikilabs can work. I still doubt that, but I agreed to give
> WMF a little more AGF (assume good faith).
> As you know the general meeting of WMDE decided that the WMF has to guarantee
> that the features of the toolserver exists in WikiLabs within 6 months
> (otherwise WMDE has to look for a way to continue the toolserver). Denis asked
> me to provide such a list of short-time-base.

The toolserver allows propietary tools. This is required by some users
and should thus be considered a toolserver feature (“i wrote code at
work for my company and reuse parts for my bot framework. I have not the
right to declare this code as open source which is needed by labs
policy.” [1]).

Given that it has been stated from WMF side that closed-apps won't be
supported, it seems impossible that “the features of the toolserver
exists in WikiLabs”.


[1] Mail on Sep 26th by Merlissimo.

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Ryan Lane-3
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/12/12 16:58, DaB. wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I just came back from a meeting with Denis Barthel. Denis is a long-time
> employee of Wikimedia Deutschland (WMDE) and works in the resort "Community".
> Denis was assigned to help to normalize the relationship between the
> Toolserver, WMDE and the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF); especially in the field of
> WikiLabs/Toollabs. His opinion is that if we all work together the move from
> the toolserver to Wikilabs can work. I still doubt that, but I agreed to give
> WMF a little more AGF (assume good faith).
> As you know the general meeting of WMDE decided that the WMF has to guarantee
> that the features of the toolserver exists in WikiLabs within 6 months
> (otherwise WMDE has to look for a way to continue the toolserver). Denis asked
> me to provide such a list of short-time-base.

The toolserver allows propietary tools. This is required by some users
and should thus be considered a toolserver feature (“i wrote code at
work for my company and reuse parts for my bot framework. I have not the
right to declare this code as open source which is needed by labs
policy.” [1]).

Given that it has been stated from WMF side that closed-apps won't be
supported, it seems impossible that “the features of the toolserver
exists in WikiLabs”.


[1] Mail on Sep 26th by Merlissimo.


Am I the only one that sees [1] as a giant liability issue? He's using his company's IP, which opens toolserver up to lawsuits.

- Ryan

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Re: My meeting with Denis Barthel today

Andre Koopal
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 02:42:01PM -0800, Ryan Lane wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 20/12/12 16:58, DaB. wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I just came back from a meeting with Denis Barthel. Denis is a long-time
> > > employee of Wikimedia Deutschland (WMDE) and works in the resort
> > "Community".
> > > Denis was assigned to help to normalize the relationship between the
> > > Toolserver, WMDE and the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF); especially in the
> > field of
> > > WikiLabs/Toollabs. His opinion is that if we all work together the move
> > from
> > > the toolserver to Wikilabs can work. I still doubt that, but I agreed to
> > give
> > > WMF a little more AGF (assume good faith).
> > > As you know the general meeting of WMDE decided that the WMF has to
> > guarantee
> > > that the features of the toolserver exists in WikiLabs within 6 months
> > > (otherwise WMDE has to look for a way to continue the toolserver). Denis
> > asked
> > > me to provide such a list of short-time-base.
> >
> > The toolserver allows propietary tools. This is required by some users
> > and should thus be considered a toolserver feature (“i wrote code at
> > work for my company and reuse parts for my bot framework. I have not the
> > right to declare this code as open source which is needed by labs
> > policy.” [1]).
> >
> > Given that it has been stated from WMF side that closed-apps won't be
> > supported, it seems impossible that “the features of the toolserver
> > exists in WikiLabs”.
> >
> >
> > [1] Mail on Sep 26th by Merlissimo.
> >
> >
> Am I the only one that sees [1] as a giant liability issue? He's using his
> company's IP, which opens toolserver up to lawsuits.
>
> - Ryan

There is a difference between having permission from your employer to use
the code for other purposes, and allowing the code to be open-sourced.

Regards,

André

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