Non-commercial images

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Non-commercial images

Peter van Londen
Dear all,

My first post on this list.

We have once again a debate on the dutch wikipedia about licenses of
images.
This one particular is non-commercial. The debate is about if images that
can only be used non-commercially are compatible with the GFDL-license of
the wikipedia.

Based on this post about Resolutions about images from Anthere (8/16/06)
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-August/009230.html in
which is stated that
1) Non commercial and non-derivative: resolution dropped: to be expected,
recommendations publiced by blogs from Jimbo
2) Fair use to be forbidden for use in Wikipedia: resolution dropped,
because there was no vote.

Question 1: Jimbo will you make recommendations on the NCND-subject as was
mentioned?

Based on this answer from Eloquence/Erik Moeller:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-August/009231.html.
Erik disagreed.

Question 2: Erik will you bring this issue up in a board meeting, now you
are part of the board?

In my opinion licenses of images should be compatible with the license of
the Wikipedia. But there is some doubt...

Question 3: Is it possible that you can license the text with GFDL and
license the accompanying images with non-free-enough licenses at the same
time.

I think this is an issue that should be decided by the board, as this is an
issue for all wikimedia-projects.

Kind regards
Londenp
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Re: Non-commercial images

geni
On 12/5/06, Peter van Londen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Question 3: Is it possible that you can license the text with GFDL and
> license the accompanying images with non-free-enough licenses at the same
> time.
>
> I think this is an issue that should be decided by the board, as this is an
> issue for all wikimedia-projects.

Not really. To a large extent proejects are free to chose their own
copyright with the de-facto standard being that they much be no more
liberal than en.wikipedia.

--
geni
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Re: Non-commercial images

shojo
In reply to this post by Peter van Londen
Peter van Londen wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> My first post on this list.
>
> We have once again a debate on the dutch wikipedia about licenses of
> images.
> This one particular is non-commercial. The debate is about if images that
> can only be used non-commercially are compatible with the GFDL-license of
> the wikipedia.
>
> Based on this post about Resolutions about images from Anthere (8/16/06)
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-August/009230.html in
> which is stated that
> 1) Non commercial and non-derivative: resolution dropped: to be expected,
> recommendations publiced by blogs from Jimbo
> 2) Fair use to be forbidden for use in Wikipedia: resolution dropped,
> because there was no vote.
>
> Question 1: Jimbo will you make recommendations on the NCND-subject as was
> mentioned?
>
> Based on this answer from Eloquence/Erik Moeller:
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-August/009231.html.
> Erik disagreed.
>
> Question 2: Erik will you bring this issue up in a board meeting, now you
> are part of the board?
>
> In my opinion licenses of images should be compatible with the license of
> the Wikipedia. But there is some doubt...
>
> Question 3: Is it possible that you can license the text with GFDL and
> license the accompanying images with non-free-enough licenses at the same
> time.
>
> I think this is an issue that should be decided by the board, as this is an
> issue for all wikimedia-projects.
>
> Kind regards
> Londenp

Hi Peter,

>From what I understand (but please someone correct me if I misunderstood
the reports) the Wikimedia Board didn't vote last time these matters
were raised because it prefers to allow autonomy.

At present there is a debate (in which other list subscribers may also
be interested) on various "fair use" topics (including non-commercial
licenses) on the EN Wikipedia:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use

Also see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

and this analysis:-

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Do_fair_use_images_violate_the_GFDL%3F

Hope that will help a bit for the Netherlands Wikipedia

luke

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Re: Non-commercial images

Erik Moeller-4
On 12/15/06, luke brandt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> From what I understand (but please someone correct me if I misunderstood
> the reports) the Wikimedia Board didn't vote last time these matters
> were raised because it prefers to allow autonomy.

On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
of freedom.

I think this will have to be discussed with the current Board.
Unfortunately we're very taken up by fundraising preparations and
other critical planning issues at the moment; I do hope to bring it up
at the next face-to-face meeting in Janaury.

At this time, I would strongly, strongly ask anyone advocating the use
of NC content in a project to reconsider. It would hurt Wikikimedia
tremendously.
--
Peace & Love,
Erik
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Re: Non-commercial images

Elvis(untot)
Quoting Erik Moeller <[hidden email]>:

> On 12/15/06, luke brandt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> From what I understand (but please someone correct me if I misunderstood
>> the reports) the Wikimedia Board didn't vote last time these matters
>> were raised because it prefers to allow autonomy.
>
> On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
> the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
> level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
> across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
> of freedom.
[...]
> At this time, I would strongly, strongly ask anyone advocating the use
> of NC content in a project to reconsider. It would hurt Wikikimedia
> tremendously.

would this be the end of "fair use" images in the wikipedia? (since  
fair use is mostly an usa construct afaik)*

(and i am not really sure what a non comercial image is)


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Re: Non-commercial images

Stephen Bain
On 12/16/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (and i am not really sure what a non comercial image is)

"Non-commercial licences", in this context, means copyleft licences
which don't allow any commercial use, that is only personal use or use
in free-as-in-beer products is allowed. Use in products that cost
money is not allowed.

Copyleft licences such as the GFDL (under which text on the projects
is licenced, and some images are licenced) permit commercial use. This
basically means that I can use the image in a product and then sell it
for money.

--
Stephen Bain
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Re: Non-commercial images

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On 12/15/06, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
> the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
> level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
> across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
> of freedom.

Is that really necessary?  Yes, a defined *minimum* level of freedom
is necessary for cross-project compatibility, but that doesn't have to
preclude allowing projects from being *more* strict than the
Foundation-defined minimum.

--
Sam
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Re: Non-commercial images

shojo
Sam Korn wrote:

> On 12/15/06, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
>> the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
>> level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
>> across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
>> of freedom.
>
> Is that really necessary?  Yes, a defined *minimum* level of freedom
> is necessary for cross-project compatibility, but that doesn't have to
> preclude allowing projects from being *more* strict than the
> Foundation-defined minimum.
>

Hi - for information (and it has some relevance) the recent EN
discussion on non-commercial images can be found at this web address:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use#Fair_use_VS._Non-com

Hope this helps a bit
--
luke

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Re: Non-commercial images

shojo
In reply to this post by Sam Korn
Sam Korn wrote:

> On 12/15/06, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
>> the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
>> level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
>> across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
>> of freedom.
>
> Is that really necessary?  Yes, a defined *minimum* level of freedom
> is necessary for cross-project compatibility, but that doesn't have to
> preclude allowing projects from being *more* strict than the
> Foundation-defined minimum.
>

Hi - I'd be interested to know the thinking behind the exclusion of
non-commercial images please. Anyone care to explain?

--
luke

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Re: Non-commercial images

Effe iets anders
The idea is that Wikipedia is licensed under the GFDL license. And that
license states that you may only use texts with that license in environments
witht the same, a similar or more free license. GFDL allows the commercial
use of images, so NC-images are actually incompatible with GFDL, and so with
Wikipedia. They conflict with the content. IANAL, but I am told that this is
a potential danger to the status of our content.

Lodewijk

2006/12/19, luke brandt <[hidden email]>:

>
> Sam Korn wrote:
>
> > On 12/15/06, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
> >> the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
> >> level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
> >> across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
> >> of freedom.
> >
> > Is that really necessary?  Yes, a defined *minimum* level of freedom
> > is necessary for cross-project compatibility, but that doesn't have to
> > preclude allowing projects from being *more* strict than the
> > Foundation-defined minimum.
> >
>
> Hi - I'd be interested to know the thinking behind the exclusion of
> non-commercial images please. Anyone care to explain?
>
> --
> luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Non-commercial images

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by shojo
On 19/12/06, luke brandt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi - I'd be interested to know the thinking behind the exclusion of
> non-commercial images please. Anyone care to explain?


Because then the images aren't properly freely reusable free content.


- d.
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Re: Non-commercial images

Angela-5
In reply to this post by shojo
On 12/19/06, luke brandt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi - I'd be interested to know the thinking behind the exclusion of
> non-commercial images please. Anyone care to explain?

Erik has a good explanation of the reasons for not using content under
a non-commercial license at http://intelligentdesigns.net/Licenses/NC

Angeka

--
Angela Beesley
Wikia.com
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Re: Non-commercial images

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by shojo
luke brandt schreef:

> Sam Korn wrote:
>  
>> On 12/15/06, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> On issues such as whether we should allow NC images I, as member of
>>> the current Board, definitely don't think there should be any project
>>> level autonomy at all. If we want to keep our content compatible
>>> across languages and projects, we need to apply a consistent standard
>>> of freedom.
>>>      
>> Is that really necessary?  Yes, a defined *minimum* level of freedom
>> is necessary for cross-project compatibility, but that doesn't have to
>> preclude allowing projects from being *more* strict than the
>> Foundation-defined minimum.
>>
>>    
>
> Hi - for information (and it has some relevance) the recent EN
> discussion on non-commercial images can be found at this web address:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use#Fair_use_VS._Non-com
>
> Hope this helps a bit
> --
> luke
Hoi,
Why would it help what the English language wikipedia community thinks
about fair use or non commercial content? The problem is that too many
subjects are raised already; the amount of mail to read is also almost
too much. The only thing that may make the English language wikipedia
communities "special" is that it is big. This makes the problem worse as
there will be more people expressing opinions without making any real
difference to what is at issue.
Thanks,
    GerardM
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Re: Non-commercial images

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Angela-5
On 12/19/06, Angela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Erik has a good explanation of the reasons for not using content under
> a non-commercial license at http://intelligentdesigns.net/Licenses/NC

Thanks, and I would appreciate it if people read this document before
I respond in detail; that's why I wrote it. The references to
Wikimedia are a bit circular in this context, but there are plenty of
other arguments.

I would add (and perhaps should update this a bit) that especially in
the context of the developing world, local entrepreneurship is
extremely important. Enabling people to make a living by using
Wikimedia content can be a very good and desirable thing. I've had
discussions with education specialists in developing countries, who
_immediately_ recognized that the NC restriction would harm their
countries.

--
Peace & Love,
Erik

DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of
the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees.
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