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Office hours

Cary Bass-4
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It seems that I've gotten complaints that both sets of office hours
times are difficult for Europeans.  However, in the interest of having
the broadest participation possible, I'm interested to know how people
feel about one of the following:

1) Have the Friday office hours one hour earlier (from 21:30-22:30 UTC)
2) Have the Thursday office hours one hour later (from 17:00-18:00 UTC)
3) Keep two sets of office hours the same, we cannot please everyone
possible!

- --

Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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Re: Office hours

Angela-5
> 1) Have the Friday office hours one hour earlier (from 21:30-22:30 UTC)
> 2) Have the Thursday office hours one hour later (from 17:00-18:00 UTC)
> 3) Keep two sets of office hours the same, we cannot please everyone
> possible!

If you make the Friday one earlier, it becomes more inaccessible to
people in Asia and Western Australia who will likely be sleeping
through the Thursday one.

What about making both of them a couple of hours later?

Angela

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Re: Office hours

Effe iets anders
I think having the thursday meeting one or two more hours later would work
fine for Europe, so if that works also better for Australia... Not sure
about the Friday one, although the next day is weekend. 2130 UTC sounds like
a good time though.

2009/9/29 Angela <[hidden email]>

> > 1) Have the Friday office hours one hour earlier (from 21:30-22:30 UTC)
> > 2) Have the Thursday office hours one hour later (from 17:00-18:00 UTC)
> > 3) Keep two sets of office hours the same, we cannot please everyone
> > possible!
>
> If you make the Friday one earlier, it becomes more inaccessible to
> people in Asia and Western Australia who will likely be sleeping
> through the Thursday one.
>
> What about making both of them a couple of hours later?
>
> Angela
>
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Re: Office hours

Thomas Dalton
2009/9/29 effe iets anders <[hidden email]>:
> I think having the thursday meeting one or two more hours later would work
> fine for Europe, so if that works also better for Australia... Not sure
> about the Friday one, although the next day is weekend. 2130 UTC sounds like
> a good time though.

2130 UTC sounds a little late to me if we want Europeans there. We're
on daylight saving time for another month (ish), so in Western Europe,
that is 2330, finishing at 0030. That's pretty late.

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Re: Office hours

Effe iets anders
on a friday? :S

2009/9/29 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>

> 2009/9/29 effe iets anders <[hidden email]>:
> > I think having the thursday meeting one or two more hours later would
> work
> > fine for Europe, so if that works also better for Australia... Not sure
> > about the Friday one, although the next day is weekend. 2130 UTC sounds
> like
> > a good time though.
>
> 2130 UTC sounds a little late to me if we want Europeans there. We're
> on daylight saving time for another month (ish), so in Western Europe,
> that is 2330, finishing at 0030. That's pretty late.
>
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Re: Office hours

Angela-5
>> 2130 UTC sounds a little late to me if we want Europeans there. We're
>> on daylight saving time for another month (ish), so in Western Europe,
>> that is 2330, finishing at 0030. That's pretty late.

I thought the idea of having two meetings is that at least one would
work, not both. So, the European meeting is on Thursdays at the
earlier time.

Angela

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Re: Office hours

Geoffrey Plourde
In reply to this post by Cary Bass-4
Best option would be to have two sets, one for Europe and one for the Americas.




________________________________
From: Cary Bass <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:38:12 PM
Subject: [Foundation-l] Office hours

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It seems that I've gotten complaints that both sets of office hours
times are difficult for Europeans.  However, in the interest of having
the broadest participation possible, I'm interested to know how people
feel about one of the following:

1) Have the Friday office hours one hour earlier (from 21:30-22:30 UTC)
2) Have the Thursday office hours one hour later (from 17:00-18:00 UTC)
3) Keep two sets of office hours the same, we cannot please everyone
possible!

- --

Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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Re: Office hours

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Angela-5
2009/9/29 Angela <[hidden email]>:
>>> 2130 UTC sounds a little late to me if we want Europeans there. We're
>>> on daylight saving time for another month (ish), so in Western Europe,
>>> that is 2330, finishing at 0030. That's pretty late.
>
> I thought the idea of having two meetings is that at least one would
> work, not both. So, the European meeting is on Thursdays at the
> earlier time.

Yes, but 2130UTC was proposed as a good time for Europeans. The
original time of 2230UTC is presumably better if Europeans aren't a
factor.

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Re: Office hours

Waerth
In reply to this post by Geoffrey Plourde
There are people living in Asia and Australia as well actually ... you
know! Oh wait they aren't "Western" people so why bother ......

W

> Best option would be to have two sets, one for Europe and one for the Americas.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cary Bass <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:38:12 PM
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Office hours
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> It seems that I've gotten complaints that both sets of office hours
> times are difficult for Europeans.  However, in the interest of having
> the broadest participation possible, I'm interested to know how people
> feel about one of the following:
>
> 1) Have the Friday office hours one hour earlier (from 21:30-22:30 UTC)
> 2) Have the Thursday office hours one hour later (from 17:00-18:00 UTC)
> 3) Keep two sets of office hours the same, we cannot please everyone
> possible!
>
> - --
>
> Cary Bass
> Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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>
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> ElwAn3zXiBebDJSFySML11qxIAL4BYsp
> =uuz/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
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>
>
>      
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>
>
>  



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Re: Office hours

Waerth
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Thomas Dalton wrote:
Hmmm 22.30 UTC is a shitty time for people in Asia and Australia as well
... but why bother about them. It is all about Europeans and Americans
isn't it?

W

> 2009/9/29 Angela <[hidden email]>:
>  
>>>> 2130 UTC sounds a little late to me if we want Europeans there. We're
>>>> on daylight saving time for another month (ish), so in Western Europe,
>>>> that is 2330, finishing at 0030. That's pretty late.
>>>>        
>> I thought the idea of having two meetings is that at least one would
>> work, not both. So, the European meeting is on Thursdays at the
>> earlier time.
>>    
>
> Yes, but 2130UTC was proposed as a good time for Europeans. The
> original time of 2230UTC is presumably better if Europeans aren't a
> factor.
>
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>  

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Re: Office hours

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Waerth
2009/9/30 Waerth <[hidden email]>:
> There are people living in Asia and Australia as well actually ... you
> know! Oh wait they aren't "Western" people so why bother ......

I am well aware of the existence of Asia and Australia. I have been to
several Asian countries - I definitely remember seeing people there.
The time of 2130-2230 was proposed explicitly for the benefit of
Europeans (see Cary's first email in this thread), so I pointed out
that it actually doesn't work well for Europeans.

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Re: Office hours ... the concept of time zones

Waerth
In reply to this post by Effe iets anders
Basically if there is room for two sets of office hours it should still
be possible to please most of the world. There are times when
Europe/Africa and the Americas overlap. And there are times when East
Asia/Australia and the Americas overlap .... There are no hours that all
3 of these rough zones would overlap really and West Asia/Middle East
would be a bit tricky to fit in with these zones.

Basically office hours for an Americas/East Asia/Australia zone would
overlap best from 0300 to 0500 UTC (Evening Americas, Morning/afternoon
East Asia/Australia and even west Asia could fit in)
Office hours for an Americas/Europe zone could be something like 1900
UTC till 2100 UTC (Afternoon/morning Americas, Evening Europe) When you
plan round and bout these hours most of the world would be satisfied and
able to participate in either one or the other set of office hours!

W





> I think having the thursday meeting one or two more hours later would work
> fine for Europe, so if that works also better for Australia... Not sure
> about the Friday one, although the next day is weekend. 2130 UTC sounds like
> a good time though.
>
> 2009/9/29 Angela <[hidden email]>
>
>  
>>> 1) Have the Friday office hours one hour earlier (from 21:30-22:30 UTC)
>>> 2) Have the Thursday office hours one hour later (from 17:00-18:00 UTC)
>>> 3) Keep two sets of office hours the same, we cannot please everyone
>>> possible!
>>>      
>> If you make the Friday one earlier, it becomes more inaccessible to
>> people in Asia and Western Australia who will likely be sleeping
>> through the Thursday one.
>>
>> What about making both of them a couple of hours later?
>>
>> Angela
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>    
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>  

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Re: Office hours ... the concept of time zones

Thomas Dalton
2009/9/30 Waerth <[hidden email]>:

> Basically if there is room for two sets of office hours it should still
> be possible to please most of the world. There are times when
> Europe/Africa and the Americas overlap. And there are times when East
> Asia/Australia and the Americas overlap .... There are no hours that all
> 3 of these rough zones would overlap really and West Asia/Middle East
> would be a bit tricky to fit in with these zones.
>
> Basically office hours for an Americas/East Asia/Australia zone would
> overlap best from 0300 to 0500 UTC (Evening Americas, Morning/afternoon
> East Asia/Australia and even west Asia could fit in)

That's 8pm to 10pm in San Francisco (daylight saving time, 7pm to 9pm
otherwise), I think this really needs to happen during business hours
in SF, otherwise staff have to give up their free time for it. If they
are willing to do that, then great, but we shouldn't expect them to.

> Office hours for an Americas/Europe zone could be something like 1900
> UTC till 2100 UTC (Afternoon/morning Americas, Evening Europe) When you
> plan round and bout these hours most of the world would be satisfied and
> able to participate in either one or the other set of office hours!

That ought to work fine.

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Re: Office hours ... the concept of time zones

Waerth
Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/9/30 Waerth <[hidden email]>:
>  
>> Basically if there is room for two sets of office hours it should still
>> be possible to please most of the world. There are times when
>> Europe/Africa and the Americas overlap. And there are times when East
>> Asia/Australia and the Americas overlap .... There are no hours that all
>> 3 of these rough zones would overlap really and West Asia/Middle East
>> would be a bit tricky to fit in with these zones.
>>
>> Basically office hours for an Americas/East Asia/Australia zone would
>> overlap best from 0300 to 0500 UTC (Evening Americas, Morning/afternoon
>> East Asia/Australia and even west Asia could fit in)
>>    
>
> That's 8pm to 10pm in San Francisco (daylight saving time, 7pm to 9pm
> otherwise), I think this really needs to happen during business hours
> in SF, otherwise staff have to give up their free time for it. If they
> are willing to do that, then great, but we shouldn't expect them to.
That is true ... but it would be awfully nice if they would do ... maybe
change their hours for those particular days (instead of 9 to 17 work
from 14 to 22?) otherwise it would be difficult to fit Asia/Australia in
in  any schedule really. The other option would be something like 0200
utc (though very early for India) or 1400/1500 utc (but this would be
very late for Japan and Australia/New Zealand).

Personally I would opt for 0200 utc then as that would squeeze by best I
guess .....

I know I was being a tad aggressive but I get pretty upset when people
plan things conveniently for the Europeans and Americans and forget that
there are 3.5 billion people on other parts of the planet out there some
of whom do participate .....

W
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Re: Office hours ... the concept of time zones

Robert Rohde
Really, this all feels very simple to me.

You take the earliest time in the morning and the latest time in the
afternoon that people working in an office in San Francisco are will
to accommodate.  Will that satisfy everyone?  No.  However picking
times at the start and the end of the business day is probably the
most that it is reasonable to ask of the staff as an ongoing
commitment.

-Robert Rohde

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Waerth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> 2009/9/30 Waerth <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Basically if there is room for two sets of office hours it should still
>>> be possible to please most of the world. There are times when
>>> Europe/Africa and the Americas overlap. And there are times when East
>>> Asia/Australia and the Americas overlap .... There are no hours that all
>>> 3 of these rough zones would overlap really and West Asia/Middle East
>>> would be a bit tricky to fit in with these zones.
>>>
>>> Basically office hours for an Americas/East Asia/Australia zone would
>>> overlap best from 0300 to 0500 UTC (Evening Americas, Morning/afternoon
>>> East Asia/Australia and even west Asia could fit in)
>>>
>>
>> That's 8pm to 10pm in San Francisco (daylight saving time, 7pm to 9pm
>> otherwise), I think this really needs to happen during business hours
>> in SF, otherwise staff have to give up their free time for it. If they
>> are willing to do that, then great, but we shouldn't expect them to.
> That is true ... but it would be awfully nice if they would do ... maybe
> change their hours for those particular days (instead of 9 to 17 work
> from 14 to 22?) otherwise it would be difficult to fit Asia/Australia in
> in  any schedule really. The other option would be something like 0200
> utc (though very early for India) or 1400/1500 utc (but this would be
> very late for Japan and Australia/New Zealand).
>
> Personally I would opt for 0200 utc then as that would squeeze by best I
> guess .....
>
> I know I was being a tad aggressive but I get pretty upset when people
> plan things conveniently for the Europeans and Americans and forget that
> there are 3.5 billion people on other parts of the planet out there some
> of whom do participate .....
>
> W
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Re: Office hours

Liam Wyatt
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>wrote:

> 2009/9/30 Waerth <[hidden email]>:
> > There are people living in Asia and Australia as well actually ... you
> > know! Oh wait they aren't "Western" people so why bother ......
>
> I am well aware of the existence of Asia and Australia. I have been to
> several Asian countries - I definitely remember seeing people there.
> The time of 2130-2230 was proposed explicitly for the benefit of
> Europeans (see Cary's first email in this thread), so I pointed out
> that it actually doesn't work well for Europeans.
>

I think it's fair to say that no matter what time is selected for anything
then it is going to be inconvenient for some people - that's just a fact.
Furthermore, what might be a good time of day or day of the week for one
person will not be a good time of day/day of week for another person (even
if they are in the same timezone).
Live with it.
I live in Australia and I've never been able to make it to an 'office hours'
sometimes because it's in the middle of the night sometimes because I'm at
work. But, that's my problem not the WMFs.

The WMF have already offered to do it at two timeslots and if these are
sufficiently different from each other then that's about all that can be
done. You're never going to be able to please everyone in this issue.

-Liam [[witty lama]]


wittylama.com/blog
Peace, love & metadata



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Re: Office hours

Delphine Ménard
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 04:02, Liam Wyatt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The WMF have already offered to do it at two timeslots and if these are
> sufficiently different from each other then that's about all that can be
> done. You're never going to be able to please everyone in this issue.

Agreed, but having two slots which are convenient for noone does not
really help :)

So I would suggest to have one slot convenient for Europeans/Africans,
one slot convenient for Asia/Oceania. Any of both will be convenient
for the US West Coast, which in turn should make it relatively OK for
the US East Coast and South America.


I think it was along those lines that Angela said to move both times later.


Delphine

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