Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

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Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Achal Prabhala-2
Dear friends,

At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
reality in India and South Africa.

We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
India and South Africa.

There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.

The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
as the findings and results:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations

A film made on the project is available here:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
or
http://vimeo.com/26469276

There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.

There are still some things to come, namely:

- Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
(as they happen)
- Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
of the project (as they happen)
- English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle track
for further translation (we could use some help here).

We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
discussion.

Best wishes,
Achal


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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

whothis
Looks like an excellent waste of effort.

Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all about
it.

I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or something
would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.

Your fan

Elizabeth


On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
> reality in India and South Africa.
>
> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
> India and South Africa.
>
> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.
>
> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
> as the findings and results:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
>
> A film made on the project is available here:
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> or
> http://vimeo.com/26469276
>
> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
>
> There are still some things to come, namely:
>
> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
> (as they happen)
> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
> of the project (as they happen)
> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle track
> for further translation (we could use some help here).
>
> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
> discussion.
>
> Best wishes,
> Achal
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Oops, my karma ran over your dogma.
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

M. Williamson
What is your intention here, Elizabeth, besides trolling?

2011/7/26 whothis <[hidden email]>

> Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
>
> Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
> someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all
> about
> it.
>
> I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or something
> would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
>
> Your fan
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
> > explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
> > by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
> > world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
> > reality in India and South Africa.
> >
> > We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
> > like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
> > India and South Africa.
> >
> > There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.
> >
> > The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
> > as the findings and results:
> >
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
> >
> > A film made on the project is available here:
> >
> >
> >
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> > or
> > http://vimeo.com/26469276
> >
> > There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
> > the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
> > At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
> > this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
> >
> > There are still some things to come, namely:
> >
> > - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
> > (as they happen)
> > - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
> > of the project (as they happen)
> > - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle track
> > for further translation (we could use some help here).
> >
> > We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
> > discussion.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Achal
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oops, my karma ran over your dogma.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

David Richfield
In reply to this post by whothis
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:16 PM, whothis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
>
> Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
> someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all about
> it.
>
> I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or something
> would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
>
> Your fan
>
> Elizabeth

This was obviously just a puerile troll posting, and doesn't deserve a
response on its own merit, but I still think it's worthwhile to give
an ordinary Wikipedian's view of the general uncertainty about oral
sources in terms of notability and original research.

One of the most frequent complaints about Wikipedia, which I have seen
in contexts such as the Wikipedia overview of World History and on
websites that are critical of Wikipedia, is that it has an endemic
bias towards Western, English-language information.  As long as
Wikipedia is completely reliant on paper sources, this is unlikely to
change.  The Oral Citations project is a brave attempt to light a
candle instead of just cursing the darkness.

Lots of ethnographic work is very strongly based on interviews with
people who have an oral tradition.  This is then published and, quite
correctly, cited in Wikipedia: the view is that it is then a secondary
source, and hence appropriate.  When we directly source oral
interviews and host them on a sister project, the complaint is that
this is a primary source: prone to small sample sizes, unscientific
data gathering, and hidden biases on the part of the interviewers.

The key response to this objection in my opinion is that we have to be
clear about the kind of claim that can be supported by these
interviews, and the strength of the evidence.

Where there is no written discussion of a specific cultural practice,
endemic knowledge, minor language or whatever, an oral citation is
better than nothing.  As long as it's given in context, I don't see
the problem.  Something like "Interviews with members of the Sk8r
tribe in 2011 indicated that they have a deep animosity towards the
neighbouring Emos,<ref name=Interview36 /> <ref name=interview38 />
and have several tribal songs in this regard <ref name=Interview44>."

When the oral citations disagree with written sources, the authority
of the interviewee becomes relevant.  If a recognized elder of a
specific cultural group (whose identity can be verified) is on video
making a specific claim, that's notable and verifiable in itself, and
can be discussed as such in a Wikipedia article.

An example of such a claim might be "Although Ringo's Ethnography of
Eastern River-dwellers mentions their ritual use of torpedoes<ref
name="Ringo83" />, Chief Tom of the Wilbury tribe has claimed in an
interview that none of the tribes ever had access to such weapons, and
believes this belief to be due to a confusion with the local
militia.<ref name="Petty2011" />"

This way, no reader can be misled about the source and weight of the claim.

Of course, that's just, like, my opinion, man.{{cn}}

--
David Richfield
e^(πi)+1=0

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Federico Leva (Nemo)
David Richfield, 27/07/2011 09:35:
> One of the most frequent complaints about Wikipedia, which I have seen
> in contexts such as the Wikipedia overview of World History and on
> websites that are critical of Wikipedia, is that it has an endemic
> bias towards Western, English-language information.  As long as
> Wikipedia is completely reliant on paper sources, this is unlikely to
> change.  The Oral Citations project is a brave attempt to light a
> candle instead of just cursing the darkness.

And a point I'd like to add is that this applies also to Europe... For
instance the whole it.wikisource WikiProject about Italian folk music
http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Progetto:CantaStoria and Italian proverbs
on it.wikiquote; both have more or less written guidelines and practices
which (despite difficulties) allow oral sources because otherwise the
work would sometimes be impossible. And we've had decades of studies in
these fields...

Nemo

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Thomas Morton
This is a really interesting and thoughtfully complete project.

As an editor I am cautious of how well these could be used as citations
without falling afoul of "original research".

The first problem I see is that presentation becomes difficult:

> "Interviews with members of the Sk8r
> tribe in 2011 indicated that they have a deep animosity towards the
> neighbouring Emos

Clearly marks the source, but does not clarify who made the interviews,
where the indication came from (i.e. did they say this outright, or did they
just moan about the Emos constantly - the latter, of course, being a
problematic conclusion), or who drew the interpretation (if applicable). On
top of that it is not a *great* way to write content - better to stick to
straight facts where possible ("the Sk8r tribe have a deep animosity toward
the Emos").

This can probably be addressed by working out a good way to cite oral
material.

The second issue I touched on above; in that editors may have difficulty
drawing purely factual material from the source, rather
than making interpretations. Whilst I could see an argument for a little
leeway on oral material being interpreted, I also think it is a bad idea to
encourage too much.

Of course, material from academically qualified people (as much of this
particular project seems to be) could happily be treated in the same way as,
say, an academic writing a book or an article (with the slight caveat of no
independent review). But from unqualified people - who is going to draw it
together? I've always been in favour of giving experts in a field some
leeway in how they record/report/source/present material in Wikipedia.
However shifting that to an oral citation is not necessarily a simple task.

*What I do think is incredibly important though is that this material has
huge value in itself - and every effort to encourage more of the same should
be taken! *

In fact we should get as much material such as this as possible, host it,
translate it, make it accessible - and encourage secondary academic sources
to make use of it. This could work both as a "hack" to get around the issues
of citing oral material directly as well as contributing to the effort to
expand knowledge of these areas of study.

I'm excited to see the next step for this... is there going to be more of
this work? Can we get some publicity for this in the relevant academic
circles? Is there potential for the foundation to fund efforts to collect
more and more material? Can we look at expanding it to other areas (for
example - although I appreciate the focus is areas not covered by written
material, this would be equally valuable in some parts of the global north;
even in the UK I could see advantages to recording interviews with different
people).

Long term we could perhaps even consider a new project that is intended
specifically to collect oral evidence, host it (through commons), translate
it and make it easy to cite/use. Such a project would be horrendously
valuable and provide insight into all manner of cultures.

Tom
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

David Richfield
I agree with your assessment that problems with interpretation and
lack of independent review can definitely make it problematic for
editors to cite these interviews directly, and we'll have to see
whether it is in any way feasible under any circumstances, and if so,
what guidelines can be set up.

> *What I do think is incredibly important though is that this material has
> huge value in itself - and every effort to encourage more of the same should
> be taken! *
>
> In fact we should get as much material such as this as possible, host it,
> translate it, make it accessible - and encourage secondary academic sources
> to make use of it. This could work both as a "hack" to get around the issues
> of citing oral material directly as well as contributing to the effort to
> expand knowledge of these areas of study.

A very useful suggestion!  That should address the concerns quite
well, as well as improving the contacts between Wikipedia and
Academia.

Kind regards,

--
David Richfield
e^(πi)+1=0

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Achal Prabhala-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
Dear Tom and David,

On Wednesday 27 July 2011 03:03 PM, Thomas Morton wrote:

> This is a really interesting and thoughtfully complete project.
>
> As an editor I am cautious of how well these could be used as citations
> without falling afoul of "original research".
>
> The first problem I see is that presentation becomes difficult:
>
>> "Interviews with members of the Sk8r
>> tribe in 2011 indicated that they have a deep animosity towards the
>> neighbouring Emos
> Clearly marks the source, but does not clarify who made the interviews,
> where the indication came from (i.e. did they say this outright, or did they
> just moan about the Emos constantly - the latter, of course, being a
> problematic conclusion), or who drew the interpretation (if applicable). On
> top of that it is not a *great* way to write content - better to stick to
> straight facts where possible ("the Sk8r tribe have a deep animosity toward
> the Emos").
In this case, if you scroll down the list on the research page
(http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations) to see the
articles created in Hindi and Malayalam, you will see reference links
that take you straight to the audio file on Wikimedia Commons, wherein
you will find exactly this information - this was part of the protocol.
The who is doing it/ who is being talked to bit has been taken care of
there.

We're still developing the articles, so more will come; we're also
working on English transcripts for the audio interviews, which will
happen in time, so stay tuned.

> This can probably be addressed by working out a good way to cite oral
> material.
>
> The second issue I touched on above; in that editors may have difficulty
> drawing purely factual material from the source, rather
> than making interpretations. Whilst I could see an argument for a little
> leeway on oral material being interpreted, I also think it is a bad idea to
> encourage too much.
>
> Of course, material from academically qualified people (as much of this
> particular project seems to be) could happily be treated in the same way as,
> say, an academic writing a book or an article (with the slight caveat of no
> independent review). But from unqualified people - who is going to draw it
> together? I've always been in favour of giving experts in a field some
> leeway in how they record/report/source/present material in Wikipedia.
> However shifting that to an oral citation is not necessarily a simple task.
If you look at the subjects we focused on (broadly taken: folk games,
household recipes, traditional food, religious culture) one thing that
becomes really interesting is who the "expert" is. Mokgope, for
instance, is a country liquor brewed from marula fruit in one somewhat
remote province of South Africa. I'd wager that the people we talked to
- women from the village of Ga-Sebotlane - are the world experts on
this. (Same goes for the recipe for how to cook Mopani worms). As with
the folk games in India; the people who play them, in the places they
do, are likely to know more about them than almost anyone else.

So: one nice consequence of this project (and, I would wager, a natural
fit with Wikipedia) is that experts are everywhere, depending on what it
is we're talking about.

> *What I do think is incredibly important though is that this material has
> huge value in itself - and every effort to encourage more of the same should
> be taken! *
>
> In fact we should get as much material such as this as possible, host it,
> translate it, make it accessible - and encourage secondary academic sources
> to make use of it. This could work both as a "hack" to get around the issues
> of citing oral material directly as well as contributing to the effort to
> expand knowledge of these areas of study.
>
> I'm excited to see the next step for this... is there going to be more of
> this work? Can we get some publicity for this in the relevant academic
> circles? Is there potential for the foundation to fund efforts to collect
> more and more material? Can we look at expanding it to other areas (for
> example - although I appreciate the focus is areas not covered by written
> material, this would be equally valuable in some parts of the global north;
> even in the UK I could see advantages to recording interviews with different
> people).
The universality of this idea is key, and thanks for pointing it out.
While the lack of printed material in India and South Africa is
symptomatic of the problem with documenting the world's knowledge under
a strict (print only) citation system, the fact is, none of us who
worked on this project see it merely as a tropical remedy for brown and
black folks. It is Anglo-European language Wikipedias who stand to
benefit the most; these are - and will be - the places people
predominantly go to for some time to come. And currently, they stand to
lose out on a vast chunk of the world's knowledge by restricting
citations to mainly print sources. A tangential point is that in
addition to user-conducted oral interviews as citations, there is
probably some benefit in re-looking at the citation base as a whole: by,
perhaps, sourcing from other internet-based systems of trust where
knowledge is being created, and/or established oral history archives.

In short, the world would benefit from knowing how to cook Mopani worms :)

> Long term we could perhaps even consider a new project that is intended
> specifically to collect oral evidence, host it (through commons), translate
> it and make it easy to cite/use. Such a project would be horrendously
> valuable and provide insight into all manner of cultures.
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

CasteloBranco
In reply to this post by whothis
And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need to
write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be another
barrier. Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the
projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
than the English Wikipedia or its readers.

But that's just me.

Castelo


Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:

> Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
>
> Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
> someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all about
> it.
>
> I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or something
> would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
>
> Your fan
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
>> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
>> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
>> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
>> reality in India and South Africa.
>>
>> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
>> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
>> India and South Africa.
>>
>> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.
>>
>> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
>> as the findings and results:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
>>
>> A film made on the project is available here:
>>
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
>> or
>> http://vimeo.com/26469276
>>
>> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
>> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
>> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
>> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
>>
>> There are still some things to come, namely:
>>
>> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
>> (as they happen)
>> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
>> of the project (as they happen)
>> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle track
>> for further translation (we could use some help here).
>>
>> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
>> discussion.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Achal
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>


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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Achal Prabhala-2
Hallo (responses inline)

On Wednesday 27 July 2011 06:02 PM, CasteloBranco wrote:
> And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need to
> write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
Yes, we don't. We have Sepedi, Malayalam and Hindi Wikipedias to work
on. Which is exactly what we did and are doing.
> English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
> find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be another
> barrier.
Certainly, which is why the main scope of this project has been to
create audio interviews in Sepedi, Malayalam and Hindi for use as oral
citations on the Wikipedias that correspond to these languages.
> Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the
> projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
> than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
> But that's just me.
Well, a valid unit of knowledge in one language is surely valid in
another? Perhaps not every single unit of knowledge transfers as easily
(there was a really funny incident where certain Indian language
Wikipedias got hit with a large number of articles on Lady Gaga by
misguided machine translation some time ago). But by and large, this
holds true: assuming that every culture in the world wants to know about
every other culture, and assuming that English is a global lingua franca
- to the extent that we are speaking in it, on this list, now.

en:wiki would be weaker if every article on pasta resided solely on
it:wiki - and all we're saying is the same thing, in the context of the
oral citations project.


> Castelo
>
>
> Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
>> Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
>>
>> Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
>> someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
>> appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all about
>> it.
>>
>> I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or something
>> would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
>>
>> Your fan
>>
>> Elizabeth
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
>>> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
>>> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
>>> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
>>> reality in India and South Africa.
>>>
>>> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
>>> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
>>> India and South Africa.
>>>
>>> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.
>>>
>>> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
>>> as the findings and results:
>>>
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
>>>
>>> A film made on the project is available here:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
>>> or
>>> http://vimeo.com/26469276
>>>
>>> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
>>> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
>>> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
>>> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
>>>
>>> There are still some things to come, namely:
>>>
>>> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
>>> (as they happen)
>>> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
>>> of the project (as they happen)
>>> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle track
>>> for further translation (we could use some help here).
>>>
>>> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
>>> discussion.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Achal
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Sarah Stierch-2
In reply to this post by CasteloBranco
Hi all -

I came across a lighter version of this conversation on another Wikimedia
list, and felt the need to share my similar thoughts and statements that I
made previously.

For the past year, I have been examining opportunities involving Indigenous
communities of North America and opportunities to utilize Wikipedia and
related websites as an affordable, unique and global form of cultural
preservation. I have my undergraduate in Native American Studies, and I am
obtaining my masters currently. My final paper (not quite a thesis) for
graduation will be a strong examination of the opportunities related to
Indigenous communities and opportunities/pros/cons related to Wikipedia. I'm
actually presenting on my preliminary observations and concerns at
Wikimania, you can learn a bit more here:

http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikimedia_%26_Indigenous_Peoples:_Pros,_Cons_and_Community

In the United States, as far as I am aware, I am the only person thinking
about this on a higher level. While right now I am quite busy with other
matters, come this Fall I will be diving head first into my research. I will
be serving as Wikipedian in Residence at the National Museum of the American
Indian, where I will be working with staff to examine these concerns.  One
of our biggest concerns lies with *oral history*. We have had countless
conversations about the struggles with "no original research" however, in
oral history based societies, we will have a very hard time moving beyond
anything else. As stated previously, the majority of content created related
to Indigenous communities in North America was often written by (and still
is) Anglo anthropologists - some of that data is highly out of date and is
still being utilized on Wikipedia as a source today.

This project, Oral Citations, follows closely with the type of work I am
seeking to do. I have been planning to examine Wikipedia (English at first)
research policies and consider proposals or changes in relation to serious
research and Indigenous communities. Of course, it all comes down to
funding, and Native people of North American are often the first overlooked
group - it will take a lot of work, years of effort, and a lot of buy in
that is needed to be gathered from inside the community itself.

I'm babbling right now, but, this is a very passionate topic for me. I see
Wikipedia as providing an affordable and unique way for Indigenous
communities to not only learn valuable skills - many of the communities here
in America are among the poorest in the world, you'd think you were in a
developing country, and kids barely receive beyond an elementary school
education - but to have a broad arena to share stories (that the community
chooses to share of course), beliefs, cosmologies, and traditions so that
they are accessible and *vetted* for researchers and community members
around the world.

I do hope that some of you are attending Wikimania, I'd like to be able to
have a break out session of sorts or an unconference to discuss this topic
further. I'm hoping in the next year to have an international conference of
sorts that brings together Indigenous people, open source gurus, and
Wiki-folks to examine opportunities, processes, and belief systems in
regards to opportunities.

Feel free to email me directly, again, right now I am unable to move quickly
in any major projects due to my already big work load, but, I'm hoping that
this will be large part of my career work as an advocate for Native rights,
a scholar, and an open source-lover.

-Sarah
[[w:en:User:SarahStierch]]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:32 AM, CasteloBranco <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need to
> write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
> English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
> find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be another
> barrier. Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the
> projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
> than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
>
> But that's just me.
>
> Castelo
>
>
> Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
> > Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
> >
> > Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
> > someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> > appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all
> about
> > it.
> >
> > I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or
> something
> > would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
> >
> > Your fan
> >
> > Elizabeth
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<[hidden email]>
>  wrote:
> >
> >> Dear friends,
> >>
> >> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
> >> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
> >> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
> >> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
> >> reality in India and South Africa.
> >>
> >> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
> >> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
> >> India and South Africa.
> >>
> >> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.
> >>
> >> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
> >> as the findings and results:
> >>
> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
> >>
> >> A film made on the project is available here:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> >> or
> >> http://vimeo.com/26469276
> >>
> >> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
> >> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
> >> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
> >> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
> >>
> >> There are still some things to come, namely:
> >>
> >> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
> >> (as they happen)
> >> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
> >> of the project (as they happen)
> >> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle
> track
> >> for further translation (we could use some help here).
> >>
> >> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
> >> discussion.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >> Achal
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
and
Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sarahstierch.com/
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by CasteloBranco
>
> Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the

projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
> than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
>

I partially disagree. Certainly it is very important from the perspective of
providing material about the native countries of those languages.

However translating that material into other languages is also important;
the aim is to preserve as much knowledge as possible in a broad spectrum of
languages. The "elephant in the room" is that English Wikipedia is by far
the biggest and most well known. Followed closely by some of the European
languages. Translating the material to English/German/French gives it the
maximum accessibility - in terms of enabling* it to be used on the largest
Wikipedias and  improving the chances that other language Wikipedias being
able to parse/translate/understand the material.

English is the lingua franca of Wikipedia (whether this is wholly a good
thing or not is a much wider debate), so providing accessibility in English
helps ensure important content like this reaches as far as possible.

Tom


* note that by "enabling" I don't mean "making it acceptable to use", any
language source should be acceptable! Rather I mean "providing it in a
language that en.wiki editors will be able to make use of".
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Sarah Stierch-2
>
> I partially disagree. Certainly it is very important from the perspective
> of
> providing material about the native countries of those languages.
>
>
I don't partially, I completely disagree. While these communities might not
be English based, and many of the members don't even speak English, we wall
want to see every single Wikipedia, regardless of language, grow and
flourish with information from cultures universal.

I have often found better articles in German (where "German Indianer" books
are some of the best selling books of all time and entire festivals are
based around Native American Plains culture) about Indigenous North American
communities than in English. Cross-language is a necessity in this global
age. And sharing content with other language based Wikis can also help to
update resources, break stereotypes about cultures and encourage respect in
regards those communities. It also allows people to understand that there
are "others" out there. It takes away from the centric-aspects of some
language Wikipedias, something that people often accuse English Wikipedia of
doing.

Information is the language of Wikipedia as a whole, and we must learn how
to make the utmost use of that language in order to continue our mission to
disseminate knowledge on a worldwide scale.

-Sarah
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

whothis
In reply to this post by Sarah Stierch-2
Hi Sarah

I just love the narcissism in this email. I really want to comment but I
don't want to be called a troll again......maybe later.

Much love

Elizabeth

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Sarah Stierch <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi all -
>
> I came across a lighter version of this conversation on another Wikimedia
> list, and felt the need to share my similar thoughts and statements that I
> made previously.
>
> For the past year, I have been examining opportunities involving Indigenous
> communities of North America and opportunities to utilize Wikipedia and
> related websites as an affordable, unique and global form of cultural
> preservation. I have my undergraduate in Native American Studies, and I am
> obtaining my masters currently. My final paper (not quite a thesis) for
> graduation will be a strong examination of the opportunities related to
> Indigenous communities and opportunities/pros/cons related to Wikipedia.
> I'm
> actually presenting on my preliminary observations and concerns at
> Wikimania, you can learn a bit more here:
>
>
> http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikimedia_%26_Indigenous_Peoples:_Pros,_Cons_and_Community
>
> In the United States, as far as I am aware, I am the only person thinking
> about this on a higher level. While right now I am quite busy with other
> matters, come this Fall I will be diving head first into my research. I
> will
> be serving as Wikipedian in Residence at the National Museum of the
> American
> Indian, where I will be working with staff to examine these concerns.  One
> of our biggest concerns lies with *oral history*. We have had countless
> conversations about the struggles with "no original research" however, in
> oral history based societies, we will have a very hard time moving beyond
> anything else. As stated previously, the majority of content created
> related
> to Indigenous communities in North America was often written by (and still
> is) Anglo anthropologists - some of that data is highly out of date and is
> still being utilized on Wikipedia as a source today.
>
> This project, Oral Citations, follows closely with the type of work I am
> seeking to do. I have been planning to examine Wikipedia (English at first)
> research policies and consider proposals or changes in relation to serious
> research and Indigenous communities. Of course, it all comes down to
> funding, and Native people of North American are often the first overlooked
> group - it will take a lot of work, years of effort, and a lot of buy in
> that is needed to be gathered from inside the community itself.
>
> I'm babbling right now, but, this is a very passionate topic for me. I see
> Wikipedia as providing an affordable and unique way for Indigenous
> communities to not only learn valuable skills - many of the communities
> here
> in America are among the poorest in the world, you'd think you were in a
> developing country, and kids barely receive beyond an elementary school
> education - but to have a broad arena to share stories (that the community
> chooses to share of course), beliefs, cosmologies, and traditions so that
> they are accessible and *vetted* for researchers and community members
> around the world.
>
> I do hope that some of you are attending Wikimania, I'd like to be able to
> have a break out session of sorts or an unconference to discuss this topic
> further. I'm hoping in the next year to have an international conference of
> sorts that brings together Indigenous people, open source gurus, and
> Wiki-folks to examine opportunities, processes, and belief systems in
> regards to opportunities.
>
> Feel free to email me directly, again, right now I am unable to move
> quickly
> in any major projects due to my already big work load, but, I'm hoping that
> this will be large part of my career work as an advocate for Native rights,
> a scholar, and an open source-lover.
>
> -Sarah
> [[w:en:User:SarahStierch]]
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:32 AM, CasteloBranco <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need to
> > write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
> > English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
> > find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be another
> > barrier. Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the
> > projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
> > than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
> >
> > But that's just me.
> >
> > Castelo
> >
> >
> > Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
> > > Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
> > >
> > > Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred
> to
> > > someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> > > appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all
> > about
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or
> > something
> > > would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
> > >
> > > Your fan
> > >
> > > Elizabeth
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<[hidden email]>
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear friends,
> > >>
> > >> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
> > >> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were
> motivated
> > >> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
> > >> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of
> lived
> > >> reality in India and South Africa.
> > >>
> > >> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
> > >> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
> > >> India and South Africa.
> > >>
> > >> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and
> Sepedi.
> > >>
> > >> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
> > >> as the findings and results:
> > >>
> > >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
> > >>
> > >> A film made on the project is available here:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> > >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> > >> or
> > >> http://vimeo.com/26469276
> > >>
> > >> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
> > >> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the
> project.
> > >> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
> > >> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
> > >>
> > >> There are still some things to come, namely:
> > >>
> > >> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
> > >> (as they happen)
> > >> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a
> result
> > >> of the project (as they happen)
> > >> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle
> > track
> > >> for further translation (we could use some help here).
> > >>
> > >> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
> > >> discussion.
> > >>
> > >> Best wishes,
> > >> Achal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> foundation-l mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
> Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
> Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
> Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
> and
> Sarah Stierch Consulting
> *Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
> ------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.sarahstierch.com/
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Oops, my karma ran over your dogma.
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Maria Alameda


Hello all
I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine referred me here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american research raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely isolated from the realities.
I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world as a fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I agree there is a need for more research related to Native american culture, I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is as overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm happy for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis or even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring to. While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an excuse to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is just one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied to african-american culture in the United States coming from a female white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the plight and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps, its just me.
Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)

> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:26:16 +0530
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge
>
> Hi Sarah
>
> I just love the narcissism in this email. I really want to comment but I
> don't want to be called a troll again......maybe later.
>
> Much love
>
> Elizabeth
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Sarah Stierch <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > Hi all -
> >
> > I came across a lighter version of this conversation on another Wikimedia
> > list, and felt the need to share my similar thoughts and statements that I
> > made previously.
> >
> > For the past year, I have been examining opportunities involving Indigenous
> > communities of North America and opportunities to utilize Wikipedia and
> > related websites as an affordable, unique and global form of cultural
> > preservation. I have my undergraduate in Native American Studies, and I am
> > obtaining my masters currently. My final paper (not quite a thesis) for
> > graduation will be a strong examination of the opportunities related to
> > Indigenous communities and opportunities/pros/cons related to Wikipedia.
> > I'm
> > actually presenting on my preliminary observations and concerns at
> > Wikimania, you can learn a bit more here:
> >
> >
> > http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikimedia_%26_Indigenous_Peoples:_Pros,_Cons_and_Community
> >
> > In the United States, as far as I am aware, I am the only person thinking
> > about this on a higher level. While right now I am quite busy with other
> > matters, come this Fall I will be diving head first into my research. I
> > will
> > be serving as Wikipedian in Residence at the National Museum of the
> > American
> > Indian, where I will be working with staff to examine these concerns.  One
> > of our biggest concerns lies with *oral history*. We have had countless
> > conversations about the struggles with "no original research" however, in
> > oral history based societies, we will have a very hard time moving beyond
> > anything else. As stated previously, the majority of content created
> > related
> > to Indigenous communities in North America was often written by (and still
> > is) Anglo anthropologists - some of that data is highly out of date and is
> > still being utilized on Wikipedia as a source today.
I am not certain what higher level you are referring to but I assure you, you are not the only one thinking about this in the entire country or the continent.

> >
> > This project, Oral Citations, follows closely with the type of work I am
> > seeking to do. I have been planning to examine Wikipedia (English at first)
> > research policies and consider proposals or changes in relation to serious
> > research and Indigenous communities. Of course, it all comes down to
> > funding, and Native people of North American are often the first overlooked
> > group - it will take a lot of work, years of effort, and a lot of buy in
> > that is needed to be gathered from inside the community itself.
> >
> > I'm babbling right now, but, this is a very passionate topic for me. I see
> > Wikipedia as providing an affordable and unique way for Indigenous
> > communities to not only learn valuable skills - many of the communities
> > here
> > in America are among the poorest in the world, you'd think you were in a
> > developing country, and kids barely receive beyond an elementary school
> > education - but to have a broad arena to share stories (that the community
> > chooses to share of course), beliefs, cosmologies, and traditions so that
> > they are accessible and *vetted* for researchers and community members
> > around the world.
> >
> > I do hope that some of you are attending Wikimania, I'd like to be able to
> > have a break out session of sorts or an unconference to discuss this topic
> > further. I'm hoping in the next year to have an international conference of
> > sorts that brings together Indigenous people, open source gurus, and
> > Wiki-folks to examine opportunities, processes, and belief systems in
> > regards to opportunities.
> >
> > Feel free to email me directly, again, right now I am unable to move
> > quickly
> > in any major projects due to my already big work load, but, I'm hoping that
> > this will be large part of my career work as an advocate for Native rights,
> > a scholar, and an open source-lover.
> >
> > -Sarah
> > [[w:en:User:SarahStierch]]
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:32 AM, CasteloBranco <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need to
> > > write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
> > > English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
> > > find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be another
> > > barrier. Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the
> > > projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
> > > than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
> > >
> > > But that's just me.
> > >
> > > Castelo
> > >
> > >
> > > Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
> > > > Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred
> > to
> > > > someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> > > > appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all
> > > about
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or
> > > something
> > > > would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
> > > >
> > > > Your fan
> > > >
> > > > Elizabeth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<[hidden email]>
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Dear friends,
> > > >>
> > > >> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
> > > >> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were
> > motivated
> > > >> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
> > > >> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of
> > lived
> > > >> reality in India and South Africa.
> > > >>
> > > >> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
> > > >> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
> > > >> India and South Africa.
> > > >>
> > > >> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and
> > Sepedi.
> > > >>
> > > >> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
> > > >> as the findings and results:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
> > > >>
> > > >> A film made on the project is available here:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> > > >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> > > >> or
> > > >> http://vimeo.com/26469276
> > > >>
> > > >> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
> > > >> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the
> > project.
> > > >> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
> > > >> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
> > > >>
> > > >> There are still some things to come, namely:
> > > >>
> > > >> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
> > > >> (as they happen)
> > > >> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a
> > result
> > > >> of the project (as they happen)
> > > >> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle
> > > track
> > > >> for further translation (we could use some help here).
> > > >>
> > > >> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
> > > >> discussion.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best wishes,
> > > >> Achal
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> foundation-l mailing list
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
> > Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
> > Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
> > Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
> > and
> > Sarah Stierch Consulting
> > *Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.sarahstierch.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oops, my karma ran over your dogma.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
     
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Sarah Stierch-2
Maria and the rest of the list,

I deeply regret if my words or comments came off "racist" "patronizing" or
"isolated". I re-read my writing multiple times before sending it, and just
intended on making a general statement about the work I'm interested in
exploring, without overwhelming the list. I am sorry if it failed.

I really appreciate hearing your thoughts and ideas about my research. I
recently presented my paper at the Indigenous Peoples and Museum conference
and had a few responses similar to yours, and a few positive responses on
the opposite side of the spectrum.

This is all an exploration, and an ongoing experience. Your words, and the
words of others similar, constantly remind me of my place and the interests
of some community members. As a Wikipedian, I am devoted to many aspects of
the community, including retention and encouraging new editors, and to know
that I have stifled that by coming off as "racist" and "isolationist" goes
against what I am fighting for.

While I am not here to post my resume, tell you what I do for a living
outside of my work and schooling, share my experiences, and give a list of
who my friends are and friends aren't - I assure you that my intentions are
not meant to be purely selfish (all research is a bit selfish) and I never
intended on judging entire communities on a whole.  In regards to being
"overlooked," I meant that in reference to Wikimedia Foundation being a
United States based organization focusing more so on international efforts.

To be honest, your email was a slap in the face. Thank you again for sharing
your thoughts, I take your letter very seriously.

-Sarah


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Maria Alameda <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
>
> Hello all
> I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine referred
> me here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american
> research raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely
> isolated from the realities.
> I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world as a
> fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook
> common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I
> agree there is a need for more research related to Native american culture,
> I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is as
> overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
> I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm happy
> for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis or
> even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is
> connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring to.
> While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an excuse
> to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is just
> one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
> I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied to
> african-american culture in the United States coming from a female
> white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the plight
> and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps, its
> just me.
> Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)
>
> > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:26:16 +0530
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge
> >
> > Hi Sarah
> >
> > I just love the narcissism in this email. I really want to comment but I
> > don't want to be called a troll again......maybe later.
> >
> > Much love
> >
> > Elizabeth
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Sarah Stierch <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all -
> > >
> > > I came across a lighter version of this conversation on another
> Wikimedia
> > > list, and felt the need to share my similar thoughts and statements
> that I
> > > made previously.
> > >
> > > For the past year, I have been examining opportunities involving
> Indigenous
> > > communities of North America and opportunities to utilize Wikipedia and
> > > related websites as an affordable, unique and global form of cultural
> > > preservation. I have my undergraduate in Native American Studies, and I
> am
> > > obtaining my masters currently. My final paper (not quite a thesis) for
> > > graduation will be a strong examination of the opportunities related to
> > > Indigenous communities and opportunities/pros/cons related to
> Wikipedia.
> > > I'm
> > > actually presenting on my preliminary observations and concerns at
> > > Wikimania, you can learn a bit more here:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikimedia_%26_Indigenous_Peoples:_Pros,_Cons_and_Community
> > >
> > > In the United States, as far as I am aware, I am the only person
> thinking
> > > about this on a higher level. While right now I am quite busy with
> other
> > > matters, come this Fall I will be diving head first into my research. I
> > > will
> > > be serving as Wikipedian in Residence at the National Museum of the
> > > American
> > > Indian, where I will be working with staff to examine these concerns.
>  One
> > > of our biggest concerns lies with *oral history*. We have had countless
> > > conversations about the struggles with "no original research" however,
> in
> > > oral history based societies, we will have a very hard time moving
> beyond
> > > anything else. As stated previously, the majority of content created
> > > related
> > > to Indigenous communities in North America was often written by (and
> still
> > > is) Anglo anthropologists - some of that data is highly out of date and
> is
> > > still being utilized on Wikipedia as a source today.
> I am not certain what higher level you are referring to but I assure you,
> you are not the only one thinking about this in the entire country or the
> continent.
> > >
> > > This project, Oral Citations, follows closely with the type of work I
> am
> > > seeking to do. I have been planning to examine Wikipedia (English at
> first)
> > > research policies and consider proposals or changes in relation to
> serious
> > > research and Indigenous communities. Of course, it all comes down to
> > > funding, and Native people of North American are often the first
> overlooked
> > > group - it will take a lot of work, years of effort, and a lot of buy
> in
> > > that is needed to be gathered from inside the community itself.
> > >
> > > I'm babbling right now, but, this is a very passionate topic for me. I
> see
> > > Wikipedia as providing an affordable and unique way for Indigenous
> > > communities to not only learn valuable skills - many of the communities
> > > here
> > > in America are among the poorest in the world, you'd think you were in
> a
> > > developing country, and kids barely receive beyond an elementary school
> > > education - but to have a broad arena to share stories (that the
> community
> > > chooses to share of course), beliefs, cosmologies, and traditions so
> that
> > > they are accessible and *vetted* for researchers and community members
> > > around the world.
> > >
> > > I do hope that some of you are attending Wikimania, I'd like to be able
> to
> > > have a break out session of sorts or an unconference to discuss this
> topic
> > > further. I'm hoping in the next year to have an international
> conference of
> > > sorts that brings together Indigenous people, open source gurus, and
> > > Wiki-folks to examine opportunities, processes, and belief systems in
> > > regards to opportunities.
> > >
> > > Feel free to email me directly, again, right now I am unable to move
> > > quickly
> > > in any major projects due to my already big work load, but, I'm hoping
> that
> > > this will be large part of my career work as an advocate for Native
> rights,
> > > a scholar, and an open source-lover.
> > >
> > > -Sarah
> > > [[w:en:User:SarahStierch]]
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:32 AM, CasteloBranco <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need
> to
> > > > write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
> > > > English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
> > > > find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be
> another
> > > > barrier. Also, the escope of this project is much more important for
> the
> > > > projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages,
> rather
> > > > than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
> > > >
> > > > But that's just me.
> > > >
> > > > Castelo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
> > > > > Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources
> occurred
> > > to
> > > > > someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
> > > > > appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read
> all
> > > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or
> > > > something
> > > > > would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your fan
> > > > >
> > > > > Elizabeth
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<
> [hidden email]>
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Dear friends,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project
> to
> > > > >> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were
> > > motivated
> > > > >> by the lack of published resources in much of the
> non-Anglo-European
> > > > >> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of
> > > lived
> > > > >> reality in India and South Africa.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and
> we'd
> > > > >> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially
> within
> > > > >> India and South Africa.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and
> > > Sepedi.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as
> well
> > > > >> as the findings and results:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
> > > > >>
> > > > >> A film made on the project is available here:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> > > > >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> > > > >> or
> > > > >> http://vimeo.com/26469276
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now
> within
> > > > >> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the
> > > project.
> > > > >> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either
> on
> > > > >> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There are still some things to come, namely:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the
> project
> > > > >> (as they happen)
> > > > >> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a
> > > result
> > > > >> of the project (as they happen)
> > > > >> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English
> subtitle
> > > > track
> > > > >> for further translation (we could use some help here).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a
> broader
> > > > >> discussion.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best wishes,
> > > > >> Achal
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> foundation-l mailing list
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
> > > Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
> > > Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
> > > Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
> > > and
> > > Sarah Stierch Consulting
> > > *Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
> > > http://www.sarahstierch.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Oops, my karma ran over your dogma.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
and
Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sarahstierch.com/
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Raul Gutierrez
In reply to this post by Maria Alameda
Greetings all,

While I fully concur with the note from Maria Alameda, it opens a much
broader discussion. A topic I have been researching lately.

Those who have (or could) much to say on the topic, for centuries have been
neglected and mostly been unable to  research and even have an opinion.
History was originally written by occidental conquerors and continues to be
researched and written by "colonial mentality" researchers, with a
Eurocentric view of the world.

We should remain grateful for those occidental researchers, better that than
nothing, but must be remembered that they only wrote their perception of
what they saw or heard. At some point somebody needs to investigate and
conform the true stature of the original cultures and the
Mother-Civilization that developed in this continent some 10000 years ago.

What if, there was indeed a Mother Civilization, similar to those of
Mesopotamia, India, China, Egypt, etc. And what if this civilization spanned
from Alaska to Panama, and it remains uninvestigated.

For those of you interested on this topic (that read spanish), please visit
www.toltecayotl.org. While it does not pretend to be sole holder of the
truth, possess some very interesting questions and facts, that require
further research.

Raul Gutierrez
A native American of Mexican descent.


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Maria Alameda
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 9:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge



Hello all
I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine referred me
here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american research
raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely isolated from
the realities.
I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world as a
fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook
common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I
agree there is a need for more research related to Native american culture,
I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is as
overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm happy
for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis or
even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is
connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring to.
While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an excuse
to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is just
one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied to
african-american culture in the United States coming from a female
white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the plight
and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps, its
just me.
Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)

> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:26:16 +0530
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are
> Knowledge
>
> Hi Sarah
>
> I just love the narcissism in this email. I really want to comment but
> I don't want to be called a troll again......maybe later.
>
> Much love
>
> Elizabeth
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Sarah Stierch
<[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> > Hi all -
> >
> > I came across a lighter version of this conversation on another
> > Wikimedia list, and felt the need to share my similar thoughts and
> > statements that I made previously.
> >
> > For the past year, I have been examining opportunities involving
> > Indigenous communities of North America and opportunities to utilize
> > Wikipedia and related websites as an affordable, unique and global
> > form of cultural preservation. I have my undergraduate in Native
> > American Studies, and I am obtaining my masters currently. My final
> > paper (not quite a thesis) for graduation will be a strong
> > examination of the opportunities related to Indigenous communities and
opportunities/pros/cons related to Wikipedia.

> > I'm
> > actually presenting on my preliminary observations and concerns at
> > Wikimania, you can learn a bit more here:
> >
> >
> > http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikimedia_%26_In
> > digenous_Peoples:_Pros,_Cons_and_Community
> >
> > In the United States, as far as I am aware, I am the only person
> > thinking about this on a higher level. While right now I am quite
> > busy with other matters, come this Fall I will be diving head first
> > into my research. I will be serving as Wikipedian in Residence at
> > the National Museum of the American Indian, where I will be working
> > with staff to examine these concerns.  One of our biggest concerns
> > lies with *oral history*. We have had countless conversations about
> > the struggles with "no original research" however, in oral history
> > based societies, we will have a very hard time moving beyond
> > anything else. As stated previously, the majority of content created
> > related to Indigenous communities in North America was often written
> > by (and still
> > is) Anglo anthropologists - some of that data is highly out of date
> > and is still being utilized on Wikipedia as a source today.
I am not certain what higher level you are referring to but I assure you,
you are not the only one thinking about this in the entire country or the
continent.
> >
> > This project, Oral Citations, follows closely with the type of work
> > I am seeking to do. I have been planning to examine Wikipedia
> > (English at first) research policies and consider proposals or
> > changes in relation to serious research and Indigenous communities.
> > Of course, it all comes down to funding, and Native people of North
> > American are often the first overlooked group - it will take a lot
> > of work, years of effort, and a lot of buy in that is needed to be
gathered from inside the community itself.

> >
> > I'm babbling right now, but, this is a very passionate topic for me.
> > I see Wikipedia as providing an affordable and unique way for
> > Indigenous communities to not only learn valuable skills - many of
> > the communities here in America are among the poorest in the world,
> > you'd think you were in a developing country, and kids barely
> > receive beyond an elementary school education - but to have a broad
> > arena to share stories (that the community chooses to share of
> > course), beliefs, cosmologies, and traditions so that they are
> > accessible and *vetted* for researchers and community members around
> > the world.
> >
> > I do hope that some of you are attending Wikimania, I'd like to be
> > able to have a break out session of sorts or an unconference to
> > discuss this topic further. I'm hoping in the next year to have an
> > international conference of sorts that brings together Indigenous
> > people, open source gurus, and Wiki-folks to examine opportunities,
> > processes, and belief systems in regards to opportunities.
> >
> > Feel free to email me directly, again, right now I am unable to move
> > quickly in any major projects due to my already big work load, but,
> > I'm hoping that this will be large part of my career work as an
> > advocate for Native rights, a scholar, and an open source-lover.
> >
> > -Sarah
> > [[w:en:User:SarahStierch]]
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:32 AM, CasteloBranco <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi
> > > need to write in English in order to have those oral citations
published?

> > > English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need
> > > to find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be
> > > another barrier. Also, the escope of this project is much more
> > > important for the projects on these languages, and for speakers of
> > > these languages, rather than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
> > >
> > > But that's just me.
> > >
> > > Castelo
> > >
> > >
> > > Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
> > > > Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources
> > > > occurred
> > to
> > > > someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be
> > > > the appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait
> > > > to read all
> > > about
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > I still think a research project in emesis in the global south
> > > > or
> > > something
> > > > would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
> > > >
> > > > Your fan
> > > >
> > > > Elizabeth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal
> > > > Prabhala<[hidden email]>
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Dear friends,
> > > >>
> > > >> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a
> > > >> project to explore alternative methods of citation on
> > > >> Wikipedia. We were
> > motivated
> > > >> by the lack of published resources in much of the
> > > >> non-Anglo-European world, and the very real difficulty of
> > > >> citing everyday aspects of
> > lived
> > > >> reality in India and South Africa.
> > > >>
> > > >> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and
> > > >> we'd like to share our work with the broader movement,
> > > >> especially within India and South Africa.
> > > >>
> > > >> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi
> > > >> and
> > Sepedi.
> > > >>
> > > >> The project page documents the process and logistics employed,
> > > >> as well as the findings and results:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
> > > >>
> > > >> A film made on the project is available here:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?with
> > JS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
> > > >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
> > > >> or
> > > >> http://vimeo.com/26469276
> > > >>
> > > >> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now
> > > >> within the language communities we worked with for the duration
> > > >> of the
> > project.
> > > >> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback,
> > > >> either on this list, or on the Discussion section of the project
page.

> > > >>
> > > >> There are still some things to come, namely:
> > > >>
> > > >> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the
> > > >> project (as they happen)
> > > >> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as
> > > >> a
> > result
> > > >> of the project (as they happen)
> > > >> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English
> > > >> subtitle
> > > track
> > > >> for further translation (we could use some help here).
> > > >>
> > > >> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a
> > > >> broader discussion.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best wishes,
> > > >> Achal
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
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> >
> > --
> > GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
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> > Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
> > Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
> > and
> > Sarah Stierch Consulting
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

CasteloBranco
In reply to this post by Achal Prabhala-2
Hi, Achal

I was sure you would do something special when i translated [1] some
note on the launching of this project for Brazilians. And i wasn't
wrong. Congrats!

Yes, we are saying the same thing, except perhaps for your last
sentences (sorry if i didn't get your point). Despite of its italian
origin, pasta is very important for some anglophones countries. How
about Brazilian "caldo de sururu", which is missing on en.wiki (and also
on pt.wiki)? It's surely a lack for pt.wiki, but maybe not for en.wiki,
as some projects are not missing the articles on every Lady Gaga's song.
On wikipedias, people doesn't look for other discussions (AfD) on the
same article in another language before deleting an article for lack of
notability. So you can expect that some valid unit of knowledge in one
language is not surely (or automatic) valid in another. Each community
makes its own discussions. Unless we create global AfD valid for all
languages, this will not happen. And in which language it would be? In
which project?

And English is not that 'global lingua franca'. As we talk in English on
this list, many people that could have something interesting to say us
just can't do that. If 5% of the world speaks English, then English is
the most spoken language (in some criteria), but it is still a small
part of the whole world. Let us not generalize,  'whole' and 'majority'
are not the same thing. Even if 95% of the world could read and write in
English (and this is not true), the language barrier would keep
existing, and the English wouldn't the a perfect solution. In Brazil,
99% of the people speaks Portuguese, but for some people here, even the
Portuguese language is a true barrier.

Castelo

[1] http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:%C3%81gora#Achal_Prabhala

Em 27/07/2011 10:05, Achal Prabhala escreveu:

> Hallo (responses inline)
>
> On Wednesday 27 July 2011 06:02 PM, CasteloBranco wrote:
>> And why does the people who speaks Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi need to
>> write in English in order to have those oral citations published?
> Yes, we don't. We have Sepedi, Malayalam and Hindi Wikipedias to work
> on. Which is exactly what we did and are doing.
>> English is not as universal as some people think. I guess we need to
>> find an answer in their own language, so the solution won't be another
>> barrier.
> Certainly, which is why the main scope of this project has been to
> create audio interviews in Sepedi, Malayalam and Hindi for use as oral
> citations on the Wikipedias that correspond to these languages.
>> Also, the escope of this project is much more important for the
>> projects on these languages, and for speakers of these languages, rather
>> than the English Wikipedia or its readers.
>> But that's just me.
> Well, a valid unit of knowledge in one language is surely valid in
> another? Perhaps not every single unit of knowledge transfers as easily
> (there was a really funny incident where certain Indian language
> Wikipedias got hit with a large number of articles on Lady Gaga by
> misguided machine translation some time ago). But by and large, this
> holds true: assuming that every culture in the world wants to know about
> every other culture, and assuming that English is a global lingua franca
> - to the extent that we are speaking in it, on this list, now.
>
> en:wiki would be weaker if every article on pasta resided solely on
> it:wiki - and all we're saying is the same thing, in the context of the
> oral citations project.
>
>
>> Castelo
>>
>>
>> Em 26/07/2011 16:16, whothis escreveu:
>>> Looks like an excellent waste of effort.
>>>
>>> Maybe the problem of publishing non-publishable oral sources occurred to
>>> someone on the team. Anyway the english wikipedia seems to be the
>>> appropriate place for your original research. I can't wait to read all about
>>> it.
>>>
>>> I still think a research project in emesis in the global south or something
>>> would have suited english wikipedia better but that's just me.
>>>
>>> Your fan
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Achal Prabhala<[hidden email]>    wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>> At the beginning of 2011, a group of us began working on a project to
>>>> explore alternative methods of citation on Wikipedia. We were motivated
>>>> by the lack of published resources in much of the non-Anglo-European
>>>> world, and the very real difficulty of citing everyday aspects of lived
>>>> reality in India and South Africa.
>>>>
>>>> We are now at a stage where the project is almost complete, and we'd
>>>> like to share our work with the broader movement, especially within
>>>> India and South Africa.
>>>>
>>>> There are three languages we worked within: Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi.
>>>>
>>>> The project page documents the process and logistics employed, as well
>>>> as the findings and results:
>>>>
>>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Oral_Citations
>>>>
>>>> A film made on the project is available here:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv?withJS=MediaWiki:MwEmbed.js
>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:People-are-Knowledge.ogv
>>>> or
>>>> http://vimeo.com/26469276
>>>>
>>>> There have been discussions on oral citations for some time now within
>>>> the language communities we worked with for the duration of the project.
>>>> At this stage, we are really interested in *your* feedback, either on
>>>> this list, or on the Discussion section of the project page.
>>>>
>>>> There are still some things to come, namely:
>>>>
>>>> - Updates on events, meetings and discussions held around the project
>>>> (as they happen)
>>>> - Updates on articles created in Malayalam, Hindi and Sepedi as a result
>>>> of the project (as they happen)
>>>> - English transcripts of the interviews and a full English subtitle track
>>>> for further translation (we could use some help here).
>>>>
>>>> We would be very grateful to hear your feedback, and begin a broader
>>>> discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Achal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Maria Alameda
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Maria Alameda <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Hello all
> I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine referred me here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american research raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely isolated from the realities.
> I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world as a fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I agree there is a need for more research related to Native american culture, I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is as overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
> I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm happy for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis or even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring to. While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an excuse to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is just one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
> I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied to african-american culture in the United States coming from a female white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the plight and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps, its just me.
> Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)
>

This seems like an over-reaction to me. It doesn't seem horribly
unlikely that Sarah is, if not alone, then among a very small group of
academics studying the intersection of Native Americans and Wikimedia
projects.

Were her descriptions of the challenges facing Native American
communities inaccurate?

Are you aware of outreach efforts by the WMF aimed at Native
Americans? (There are certainly many aimed at many other groups around
the world; the seeming absence of focus on Native Americans would
support Sarah's statement that they are "overlooked" in this regard).

Could you explain the specific errors she made that led you to call
her e-mail racist, patronizing and naive? I think if you are going to
use such strong words, then more substantial criticism is required
than simply stating that she is female, young and white.

Nathan

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by CasteloBranco
>
> How about Brazilian "caldo de sururu", which is missing on en.wiki (and
> also
> on pt.wiki)? It's surely a lack for pt.wiki, but maybe not for en.wiki,
>

Perhaps this is the fundamental difference in our views; because I consider
that a lack on *any language Wikipedia* whether pt, en, de, fr etc....


> On wikipedias, people doesn't look for other discussions (AfD) on the
> same article in another language before deleting an article for lack of
> notability. So you can expect that some valid unit of knowledge in one
> language is not surely (or automatic) valid in another.
>

This is not so much a problem to be looked at from the perspective of "oh
their just not interested in X cultural articles", but from the perspective
of how to convince editors to accept a less Y-centric viewpoint and include
articles of relevance to X culture. This idea needs directing at en.wiki
certainly, and probably at other language Wiki's too (because they also tend
to have centric-attitudes needing to be overcome).



> And English is not that 'global lingua franca'.


It is, though, the predominantly spoken language of *Wikimedia*, at the
moment (and that is not likely to change soon). So as a transfer language it
is often our best bet.

The point I was trying to make is that to get the material translated into *as
many languages* as possible it needs a path of least resistance - whereby
you have the maximum amount of translators available to process material. If
English is no good as a "common" language from which to work on that then,
fine, lets consider other options!

There is no ideal solution yet available where we can all use our own
languages and still interact effectively - grumping about translation
efforts in light of that doesn't seem very constructive...

Tom
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