Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

M. Williamson
Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are all
the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is definitely
going on here.

2011/7/27 Nathan <[hidden email]>

> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Maria Alameda <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello all
> > I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine referred
> me here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american
> research raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely
> isolated from the realities.
> > I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world as
> a fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook
> common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I
> agree there is a need for more research related to Native american culture,
> I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is as
> overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
> > I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm happy
> for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis or
> even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is
> connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring to.
> While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an excuse
> to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is just
> one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
> > I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied to
> african-american culture in the United States coming from a female
> white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the plight
> and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps, its
> just me.
> > Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)
> >
>
> This seems like an over-reaction to me. It doesn't seem horribly
> unlikely that Sarah is, if not alone, then among a very small group of
> academics studying the intersection of Native Americans and Wikimedia
> projects.
>
> Were her descriptions of the challenges facing Native American
> communities inaccurate?
>
> Are you aware of outreach efforts by the WMF aimed at Native
> Americans? (There are certainly many aimed at many other groups around
> the world; the seeming absence of focus on Native Americans would
> support Sarah's statement that they are "overlooked" in this regard).
>
> Could you explain the specific errors she made that led you to call
> her e-mail racist, patronizing and naive? I think if you are going to
> use such strong words, then more substantial criticism is required
> than simply stating that she is female, young and white.
>
> Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Sarah Stierch-2
Maria Alameda is not a troll. She apologized to me in a very sincere manner
offlist. Culturally this is a very sensitive topic, and I have learned to
deal with the criticism, weariness and lack of trust that people have
towards the work I do based on my skin color and name. This is not the first
time I have experienced sentiments like that, and I take each one very
seriously. It's unfortunate, but, plenty of people have paved the way for
folks like Maria to have the response she did. :-/

The other two..I'm not so sure.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are all
> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is
> definitely
> going on here.
>
> 2011/7/27 Nathan <[hidden email]>
>
> > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Maria Alameda <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello all
> > > I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine
> referred
> > me here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american
> > research raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely
> > isolated from the realities.
> > > I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world
> as
> > a fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook
> > common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I
> > agree there is a need for more research related to Native american
> culture,
> > I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is
> as
> > overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
> > > I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm
> happy
> > for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis
> or
> > even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is
> > connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring
> to.
> > While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an
> excuse
> > to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is
> just
> > one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
> > > I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied
> to
> > african-american culture in the United States coming from a female
> > white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the
> plight
> > and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps,
> its
> > just me.
> > > Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)
> > >
> >
> > This seems like an over-reaction to me. It doesn't seem horribly
> > unlikely that Sarah is, if not alone, then among a very small group of
> > academics studying the intersection of Native Americans and Wikimedia
> > projects.
> >
> > Were her descriptions of the challenges facing Native American
> > communities inaccurate?
> >
> > Are you aware of outreach efforts by the WMF aimed at Native
> > Americans? (There are certainly many aimed at many other groups around
> > the world; the seeming absence of focus on Native Americans would
> > support Sarah's statement that they are "overlooked" in this regard).
> >
> > Could you explain the specific errors she made that led you to call
> > her e-mail racist, patronizing and naive? I think if you are going to
> > use such strong words, then more substantial criticism is required
> > than simply stating that she is female, young and white.
> >
> > Nathan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
and
Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sarahstierch.com/
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are all
> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is definitely
> going on here.
>

That would be interesting, but I think whothis is a somewhat regular
poster (who uses the name Elizabeth Forrester and has been posting
since September) and Raul Gutierrez is using a non-free e-mail
account. Makes it unlikely that they are the same person.

~Nathan

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

David Goodman-2
In reply to this post by WJhonson
Using an exact quote , from video or print,  in an article is a
summary, because you are normally selecting a portion of the potential
material that you consider representative. But the link to the entire
item, as is the required practice, does make this at least audit-able,
in that anyone else can check what you chose to use, at least if the
link is to material that is permanently online--as will be the videos
under discussion.

But choosing to use the quote at all in the article is interpretation.
One normally cannot cite all possible sources. Choosing a source is
intrinsically interpretation. An editor chooses a source because they
consider the source useful to the article; what an editor considers
useful to the article depends on what they want to say, or support.
Wikipedia articles   edited by diverse editors can attain a NPOV
because other editors can also search for sources to use as quotes,
and the principle of crowd-sourcing is that they balance out.
Wikipedia articles not actively edited by multiple diverse individuals
are not NPOV.

How one presents a quote is interpretation and summary. How much
context does one give about where the quote comes from, and the likely
nature of bias from the source? It is impossible to give everything
relevant, while citing all informants or all printed sources as if
they were equal is even worse, and one cannot assume the reader will
be able to do this for themselves. They must judge the arguments for
themselves, but someone in a position to know must judge the sources
and this cannot be done without bias, which can only be partially
corrected by group participation and whatever conscious effort an
individual's skill and integrity make possible. .

Any one WP as a whole is not NPOV because the particular WP reflects
the interests and POV of the overall body of editors, which is not
representative of world opinion; I would argue that the enWP jas the
potential to be the most neutral because of the most diverse
editorship, with perhaps the fr and the es also having this advantage.
A conscious effort to try to surpass personal and cultural bias is
possible, and in this respect, I am less sure the enWP does very well.

I cannot give examples without getting into the related controversies,
which, however tempting, is not my present purpose.


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Wjhonson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> David how is an exact quote a summary or interpretation?
> An exact quote, backed up by the actual audio track is... exact.
> You are not summarizing it, and you are not interpreting it either.
> You are presenting it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Goodman <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 12:39 pm
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Wjhonson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  For actual quotations from sources, you should quote the source exactly.
>  Then you will never be using original research.
>
>  You are going the next step and summarizing and interpreting.  Don't do that.
> But selecting what quotations to use, what parts of them to use, and
> n what context one uses them, and the language one uses to present
> hem, is a not a mechanical or necessarily neutral endeavor. It cannot
> e done without summarizing and interpreting.
> Certainly in Wikipedia and everywhere else the world also,
> nrepresentative of partial quotations are used to propagandistic or
> ontroversial effect--sometimes even deliberately, but more often
> ecause the particular quotation and manner fits what the editor
> esires to express. A person in the course of a long career will say
> any things on their main interests, and some will be  at  least
> artially contradictory. Selecting what represents the person's true
> iews, what represents a true change of opinion, what represent
> rratic misstatements --all of this require decisions which amount to
> hat we call original research and synthesis. It is not possible to
> rite any but the most trivial article without research and synthesis.
> reparing a summary of the state of a question intrinsically requires
> t. Deciding of the balance of an article necessarily involves having
>  POV--if one approaches a subject where one has none initially, by
> he time the article has been finished, one or the other position is
> ure to have been found more appealing, and a non-neural POV is sure
> o have developed.
> The writing of secondary and tertiary works   are inevitably
> ssociated with bias.  The way by which we avoid its worst
> anifestations in Wikipedia is not by being free from bias, but by
> aving articles written collectively by a diverse group of people.
> hat we lose in elegant prose we gain in objectivity. This is why it
> s important to  continually increase the number of active
> ditors--not just to increase the scope, but to ensure adequate eyes
> n the articles.
> But even so, the different Wikipedias will be inevitably different.
> Attention has recently been called on the  list to
> ttp://manypedia.com/.)  We need in particular more people with
> ultiple language ability to incorporate the diversity in the
> ndividual encyclopedias.    This is one reason why it is critically
> mportant to develop Wikipedias in the non-Western languages, so their
> iews too can be represented not just in their own language, but
> hroughout the project.
>  --
> avid Goodman
> DGG at the enWP
> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> _______________________________________________
> oundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> nsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ryan Kaldari-2
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
Regardless, Elizabeth/Anon/whothis is clearly trolling the list and
being disruptive. I would like to request moderation of his/her comments.

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/27/11 2:45 PM, Nathan wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM, M. Williamson<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are all
>> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
>> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
>> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is definitely
>> going on here.
>>
> That would be interesting, but I think whothis is a somewhat regular
> poster (who uses the name Elizabeth Forrester and has been posting
> since September) and Raul Gutierrez is using a non-free e-mail
> account. Makes it unlikely that they are the same person.
>
> ~Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Raul Gutierrez
Dear Ryan,

So I am not entitled to voice my opinion here!!!!

BTW, I am not attacking anyone, and I am not any of those other people, I
would like to request moderation on your comments!

My W user name is GUMR51

Thank you for your consideration

Raul Gutierrez

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Kaldari
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:52 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Regardless, Elizabeth/Anon/whothis is clearly trolling the list and being
disruptive. I would like to request moderation of his/her comments.

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/27/11 2:45 PM, Nathan wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM, M. Williamson<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth"
>> are all the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we
>> occasionally get single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare
>> to see them pop up in the middle of a topic just to attack one user.
>> Something fishy is definitely going on here.
>>
> That would be interesting, but I think whothis is a somewhat regular
> poster (who uses the name Elizabeth Forrester and has been posting
> since September) and Raul Gutierrez is using a non-free e-mail
> account. Makes it unlikely that they are the same person.
>
> ~Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ryan Kaldari-2
Unless you go by the name Elizabeth or whothis, I don't believe I
mentioned you in my email. Apologies if there was any confusion. My
request is specifically regarding the email address [hidden email],
and no one else.

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/27/11 4:18 PM, Raul Gutierrez wrote:

> Dear Ryan,
>
> So I am not entitled to voice my opinion here!!!!
>
> BTW, I am not attacking anyone, and I am not any of those other people, I
> would like to request moderation on your comments!
>
> My W user name is GUMR51
>
> Thank you for your consideration
>
> Raul Gutierrez
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Kaldari
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:52 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge
>
> Regardless, Elizabeth/Anon/whothis is clearly trolling the list and being
> disruptive. I would like to request moderation of his/her comments.
>
> Ryan Kaldari
>
> On 7/27/11 2:45 PM, Nathan wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM, M. Williamson<[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth"
>>> are all the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we
>>> occasionally get single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare
>>> to see them pop up in the middle of a topic just to attack one user.
>>> Something fishy is definitely going on here.
>>>
>> That would be interesting, but I think whothis is a somewhat regular
>> poster (who uses the name Elizabeth Forrester and has been posting
>> since September) and Raul Gutierrez is using a non-free e-mail
>> account. Makes it unlikely that they are the same person.
>>
>> ~Nathan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On 07/27/11 12:42 PM, Wjhonson wrote:
> David how is an exact quote a summary or interpretation?
> An exact quote, backed up by the actual audio track is... exact.
> You are not summarizing it, and you are not interpreting it either.
> You are presenting it.

If that is to be the case the exact quote MUST be in its original
language.  All translations require interpretation.

Ray

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Sarah-128
In reply to this post by David Richfield
2011/7/27 David Richfield <[hidden email]>:
>
> Lots of ethnographic work is very strongly based on interviews with
> people who have an oral tradition.  This is then published and, quite
> correctly, cited in Wikipedia: the view is that it is then a secondary
> source, and hence appropriate.  When we directly source oral
> interviews and host them on a sister project, the complaint is that
> this is a primary source: prone to small sample sizes, unscientific
> data gathering, and hidden biases on the part of the interviewers.
>
Some Wikinews reporters have introduced their interviews as sources on
Wikipedia, with some success -- linking directly to an audio recording
of the interview, not to the Wikinews story -- but there has been
resistance to it.

I've often wondered why we don't introduce video and audio recordings
to our articles, showing interviews by Wikipedians of notable primary
sources. It would make our articles significantly more interesting and
reader-friendly, and would tie in directly with efforts to record oral
histories.

Sarah

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
Well then, Ray, en.wp would not be able to use non-English sources since all
translation is interpretation and would therefore be considered OR which is
not allowed at Wikipedia.

2011/7/27 Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]>

> On 07/27/11 12:42 PM, Wjhonson wrote:
> > David how is an exact quote a summary or interpretation?
> > An exact quote, backed up by the actual audio track is... exact.
> > You are not summarizing it, and you are not interpreting it either.
> > You are presenting it.
>
> If that is to be the case the exact quote MUST be in its original
> language.  All translations require interpretation.
>
> Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Maria Alameda
In reply to this post by Sarah Stierch-2

Thank you Sarah. I knew I owed a public apology to other members of this list, but did not want to bring up my conduct again. I found that the discussion had since moved on and I could convey my feelings to Sarah privately.
I would like to publicly apologize to other readers for my past comments. I do not edit Wikipedia. I have no idea about the context of discussions on this particular mailing list. An old student referred me to the email this morning, and I signed up instantly to this mailing list for only the purpose of replying to that email. I realized that my knee-jerk reaction at the time was out of place and a complete over-reaction to what was being discussed. 
I have since then apologized to Sarah privately, and I do really hope she accepted it. I sincerely hope I didn't affect her enthusiasm and passion with my comments. My comments were clearly an over-sensitive reaction to the perceived content of the last email, I saw them out of context and I sincerely apologize for my conduct to everyone who read them.
It has been a while since I have been called a troll, though I am old enough to probably be considered one. I don't feel I have anymore to contribute. There seems to be a much more active discussion here than what I was expecting. As such, this would be my last email to this mailing list, I will be unsubscribe after this email - Troll or not. 
I wish everyone the best in their endeavors. I have nothing but good things to say about Wikipedia and what it is doing to change our world.
Best wishes
Maria Alameda


> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:40:49 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge
>
> Maria Alameda is not a troll. She apologized to me in a very sincere manner
> offlist. Culturally this is a very sensitive topic, and I have learned to
> deal with the criticism, weariness and lack of trust that people have
> towards the work I do based on my skin color and name. This is not the first
> time I have experienced sentiments like that, and I take each one very
> seriously. It's unfortunate, but, plenty of people have paved the way for
> folks like Maria to have the response she did. :-/
>
> The other two..I'm not so sure.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 5:34 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are all
> > the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
> > single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
> > the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is
> > definitely
> > going on here.
> >
> > 2011/7/27 Nathan <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Maria Alameda <[hidden email]
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello all
> > > > I usually don't comment on mailing lists but a colleague of mine
> > referred
> > > me here. I wanted to comment on the issues related to Native-american
> > > research raised earlier by Ms. Stierch. I found her outlook completely
> > > isolated from the realities.
> > > > I would rather attribute her naivety to her limited view of the world
> > as
> > > a fresh graduate. Personally, it reminds me of a somewhat racist outlook
> > > common among predominantly white-american graduates and students. While I
> > > agree there is a need for more research related to Native american
> > culture,
> > > I really can't agree with the implication that Native american culture is
> > as
> > > overlooked as some unknown tribe in New Guinea.
> > > > I should be thankful for her enthusiasm but this is ridiculous. I'm
> > happy
> > > for her residency at National museum of American Indian(s) and her thesis
> > or
> > > even efforts to change certain policies on Wikipedia, but none of that is
> > > connected with the much-larger cultural and race issues she's referring
> > to.
> > > While I wish her the best, I would hope she not use her thesis as an
> > excuse
> > > to comment on the realities of those cultural issues. Oral citation is
> > just
> > > one small aspect of a much larger culture she learnt in school.
> > > > I might be too sensitive here, but if her comments were to be applied
> > to
> > > african-american culture in the United States coming from a female
> > > white-undergraduate student pursuing her masters, her comments on the
> > plight
> > > and the issues of an entire race would seem rather patronizing. Perhaps,
> > its
> > > just me.
> > > > Maria AlamedaM.A, Ph.d (Native American studies)
> > > >
> > >
> > > This seems like an over-reaction to me. It doesn't seem horribly
> > > unlikely that Sarah is, if not alone, then among a very small group of
> > > academics studying the intersection of Native Americans and Wikimedia
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > Were her descriptions of the challenges facing Native American
> > > communities inaccurate?
> > >
> > > Are you aware of outreach efforts by the WMF aimed at Native
> > > Americans? (There are certainly many aimed at many other groups around
> > > the world; the seeming absence of focus on Native Americans would
> > > support Sarah's statement that they are "overlooked" in this regard).
> > >
> > > Could you explain the specific errors she made that led you to call
> > > her e-mail racist, patronizing and naive? I think if you are going to
> > > use such strong words, then more substantial criticism is required
> > > than simply stating that she is female, young and white.
> > >
> > > Nathan
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for the Wikimedia
> Foundation<http://www.glamwiki.org>
> Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
> Art<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch>
> and
> Sarah Stierch Consulting
> *Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
> ------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge

Yes I agree that primary sources should ONLY be cited-quoted, in their original language.
A translation can be *published* but that publication cannot be in Wikipedia solely.  It must live somewhere else as well, published by a reliable source.

In this case of an audio file, we should have a transcription, than a translation.  However having Wikipedians translate primary sources and then citing and quoting those *translations* in-project is a recipe for disaster and fraught with the potential for abuse, as well as being original research.  In this case the original research is *your unpublished translation used as the actual source*.

That's no good.





-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge


On 07/27/11 12:42 PM, Wjhonson wrote:
 David how is an exact quote a summary or interpretation?
 An exact quote, backed up by the actual audio track is... exact.
 You are not summarizing it, and you are not interpreting it either.
 You are presenting it.
If that is to be the case the exact quote MUST be in its original
anguage.  All translations require interpretation.
Ray
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
On 07/27/11 2:34 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are all
> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is definitely
> going on here.

Your failure to assume good faith is excruciatingly apparent.

Ray

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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

M. Williamson
Yes, Elizabeth is clearly not a troll, her suggestion: "I still think a
research project in emesis in the global south or something would have
suited english wikipedia better but that's just me." was clearly entirely
serious and meant to be taken seriously. On that note, I think I will go do
a "research project" on emesis in the nearest restroom.

2011/7/27 Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]>

> On 07/27/11 2:34 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
> > Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are
> all
> > the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
> > single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
> > the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is
> definitely
> > going on here.
>
> Your failure to assume good faith is excruciatingly apparent.
>
> Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ryan Kaldari-2
So if I post nothing but emails about "the cabal" and random insults to
people trying to have legitimate discussions, it's cool as long as I end
my emails with a serious sentence???

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/27/11 4:53 PM, M. Williamson wrote:

> Yes, Elizabeth is clearly not a troll, her suggestion: "I still think a
> research project in emesis in the global south or something would have
> suited english wikipedia better but that's just me." was clearly entirely
> serious and meant to be taken seriously. On that note, I think I will go do
> a "research project" on emesis in the nearest restroom.
>
> 2011/7/27 Ray Saintonge<[hidden email]>
>
>> On 07/27/11 2:34 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
>>> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are
>> all
>>> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
>>> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up in
>>> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is
>> definitely
>>> going on here.
>> Your failure to assume good faith is excruciatingly apparent.
>>
>> Ray
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

MZMcBride-2
Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> So if I post nothing but emails about "the cabal" and random insults to
> people trying to have legitimate discussions, it's cool as long as I end
> my emails with a serious sentence???

No, it's not okay. whothis's posts have been largely unacceptable and while
I don't generally favor moderation, this is one case where I think it would
have been appropriate.

whothis is a "bad hand" account of an otherwise upstanding user. I'm
confident that this user now understands the consequences of such
socking/trolling behavior and I don't imagine we'll hear from this account
again.

(For the record, whothis is not connected to Maria or Raul. I hope both
Maria and Raul continue to participate in this list, as I think they both
offer interesting and insightful perspectives, but that's obviously their
decision to make.)

MZMcBride



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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Ryan Kaldari-2
Ryan, perhaps you missed the intention of my e-mail. The sentence about
"emesis" was also clearly not serious. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emesis

2011/7/27 Ryan Kaldari <[hidden email]>

> So if I post nothing but emails about "the cabal" and random insults to
> people trying to have legitimate discussions, it's cool as long as I end
> my emails with a serious sentence???
>
> Ryan Kaldari
>
> On 7/27/11 4:53 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
> > Yes, Elizabeth is clearly not a troll, her suggestion: "I still think a
> > research project in emesis in the global south or something would have
> > suited english wikipedia better but that's just me." was clearly entirely
> > serious and meant to be taken seriously. On that note, I think I will go
> do
> > a "research project" on emesis in the nearest restroom.
> >
> > 2011/7/27 Ray Saintonge<[hidden email]>
> >
> >> On 07/27/11 2:34 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
> >>> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are
> >> all
> >>> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
> >>> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up
> in
> >>> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is
> >> definitely
> >>> going on here.
> >> Your failure to assume good faith is excruciatingly apparent.
> >>
> >> Ray
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ryan Kaldari-2
Ha, sorry I missed the joke! I had no idea what emesis referred to.

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/28/11 7:41 AM, M. Williamson wrote:

> Ryan, perhaps you missed the intention of my e-mail. The sentence about
> "emesis" was also clearly not serious. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emesis
>
> 2011/7/27 Ryan Kaldari<[hidden email]>
>
>> So if I post nothing but emails about "the cabal" and random insults to
>> people trying to have legitimate discussions, it's cool as long as I end
>> my emails with a serious sentence???
>>
>> Ryan Kaldari
>>
>> On 7/27/11 4:53 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
>>> Yes, Elizabeth is clearly not a troll, her suggestion: "I still think a
>>> research project in emesis in the global south or something would have
>>> suited english wikipedia better but that's just me." was clearly entirely
>>> serious and meant to be taken seriously. On that note, I think I will go
>> do
>>> a "research project" on emesis in the nearest restroom.
>>>
>>> 2011/7/27 Ray Saintonge<[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> On 07/27/11 2:34 PM, M. Williamson wrote:
>>>>> Nathan, I think that Raul Gutierrez, Maria Alameda and "Elizabeth" are
>>>> all
>>>>> the same person, somebody trolling the list. While we occasionally get
>>>>> single-issue new posters starting topics, it's rare to see them pop up
>> in
>>>>> the middle of a topic just to attack one user. Something fishy is
>>>> definitely
>>>>> going on here.
>>>> Your failure to assume good faith is excruciatingly apparent.
>>>>
>>>> Ray
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
LOL. If that's the case it would be a good reason for changing the OR
policy. It would also make sense to quote non-English sources in their
original language unless the translation itself is verifiable.

Ray

On 07/27/11 4:36 PM, M. Williamson wrote:

> Well then, Ray, en.wp would not be able to use non-English sources since all
> translation is interpretation and would therefore be considered OR which is
> not allowed at Wikipedia.
>
> 2011/7/27 Ray Saintonge<[hidden email]
>> On 07/27/11 12:42 PM, Wjhonson wrote:
>>> David how is an exact quote a summary or interpretation?
>>> An exact quote, backed up by the actual audio track is... exact.
>>> You are not summarizing it, and you are not interpreting it either.
>>> You are presenting it.
>> If that is to be the case the exact quote MUST be in its original
>> language.  All translations require interpretation.
>>
>> Ray


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Re: Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On 07/27/11 4:40 PM, Wjhonson wrote:
> Yes I agree that primary sources should ONLY be cited-quoted, in their original language.
> A translation can be *published* but that publication cannot be in Wikipedia solely.  It must live somewhere else as well, published by a reliable source.
>
> In this case of an audio file, we should have a transcription, than a translation.  However having Wikipedians translate primary sources and then citing and quoting those *translations* in-project is a recipe for disaster and fraught with the potential for abuse, as well as being original research.  In this case the original research is *your unpublished translation used as the actual source*.

It's also a mistake to use "original research" as an excuse for
suppressing information, as is often done on Wikipedia. A
wiki-translation is fine as long as long as the original is linked and
can be checked.  The other dangers that you cite are real, but we cannot
expect perfection from imperfect sources.  Whether a source is
"reliable" or research is "original" depends on one's POV.  Knowledge is
best served by expressing our uncertainties instead of blocking
uncertain facts.  Especially in matters of history it should be up to
the reader to decide what weight to give to material.

Ray

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Saintonge
> Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 4:36 pm
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Oral Citations project: People are Knowledge
>
> On 07/27/11 12:42 PM, Wjhonson wrote:
>   David how is an exact quote a summary or interpretation?
>   An exact quote, backed up by the actual audio track is... exact.
>   You are not summarizing it, and you are not interpreting it either.
>   You are presenting it.
> If that is to be the case the exact quote MUST be in its original
> anguage.  All translations require interpretation.
> Ray


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