Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

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Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Andrea Zanni-2
DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)


I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
Thank you in advance.

Aubrey
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Thomas Dalton
On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
> please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
>
>
> I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
> subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
> here:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
> I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
> discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
> about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
> any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> Thank you in advance.

I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
issue certainly isn't being ignored.

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Abbas Mahmood
Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
> >
> >
> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
> > here:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> > Thank you in advance.
>
> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
     
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Nathan Awrich
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.
>

That's a pretty broad generalization -  hopefully the organizing team
will still make every effort to include as many people as possible,
just in case you aren't 100% correct.

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Moushira Elamrawy
In reply to this post by Abbas Mahmood
Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
of an Arab or Muslim nation.

I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
ethical levels.
Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
it Haifa or not.

M



On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare
> step into Israeli soil.
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>>
>> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame.
>> > So
>> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads
>> > (I
>> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I
>> > found is
>> > here:
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
>> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
>> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania
>> > 2011.
>> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
>> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember
>> > a
>> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-(
>> > )
>> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are
>> > there
>> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
>> > Thank you in advance.
>>
>> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
>> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
>> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
>> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
>> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
>> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>    
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Abbas Mahmood

What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel).








 

Image by FlamingText.com






 

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
>
> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.
> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
> it Haifa or not.
>
> M
>
>
>
> On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare
> > step into Israeli soil.
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> >>
> >> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame.
> >> > So
> >> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads
> >> > (I
> >> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I
> >> > found is
> >> > here:
> >> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> >> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> >> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania
> >> > 2011.
> >> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> >> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember
> >> > a
> >> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-(
> >> > )
> >> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are
> >> > there
> >> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> >> > Thank you in advance.
> >>
> >> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
> >> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
> >> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
> >> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
> >> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
> >> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
     
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Mathias Schindler-2
In reply to this post by Abbas Mahmood
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.

Hey, isn't this already progress when they acknowledge the soil to be
Israeli? :)

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Mathias Schindler-2
In reply to this post by Abbas Mahmood
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel).

At least some states are offering secondary passports to their
citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps.

Mathias

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Abbas Mahmood
I think Moushira is right: as much as there are external threats (which are being curbed in one way or another), it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person wants to go.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:45:44 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel).
>
> At least some states are offering secondary passports to their
> citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps.
>
> Mathias
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
     
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by Moushira Elamrawy

> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.

Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
would need to check.

The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
about Irak for instance):
Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.

There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
Indonesia.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

theo10011
I absolutely agree that this is a complicated matter and would differ from
country to country. the thing is the foundations goal of expanding in the
"global south" does place some priority on the middle east, it would be
rather unfortunate that most of the people might not be able to make it to
the conference. I also understand that the organizers are making a great
effort to be as inclusive as possible, but I think we have to realize its
going to be what its going to be. Many people might not be able to attend
this year. Its not only an issue for the resident but also for people who
travel or work in countries which might discriminate against
an Israeli stamp on their passport.

I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern
countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa
have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
two separate things?

Regards

Theo

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> > I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> > to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> > remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> > an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> > includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> > destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> > those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> > ethical levels.
>
> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
> Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
> would need to check.
>
> The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
> stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
> this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
> about Irak for instance):
> Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
> Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
> break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.
>
> There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
> stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
> compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
> Indonesia.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

???
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
Nathan wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.
>>
>
> That's a pretty broad generalization -  hopefully the organizing team
> will still make every effort to include as many people as possible,
> just in case you aren't 100% correct.
>

Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by theo10011

> I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> mid-eastern
> countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
> also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
Visa
> have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> two separate things?
>

In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
(technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them
having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.

It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To
travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
passport or a return certificate.

To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by ???

> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>
> _______________________________________________

This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Moushira Elamrawy
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 8/11/10, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
>> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
>> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
>> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
>> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
>> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
>> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
>> ethical levels.
>
> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
> Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
> would need to check.
>
> The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
> stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
> this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
> about Irak for instance):
> Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
> Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
> break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.
>
> There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
> stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
> compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
> Indonesia.
>
You are right about the need to check on the list update. For instance
as far as I know, Bahrain has no problem with Israeli stamped passport
or nationals. (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear
list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper
without restrictions?).

thanks
M

>
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>

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Casey Brown-5
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear
> list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper
> without restrictions?).

They do have this page on Wikimania2011wiki already:
<http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Passport_stamping>

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

theo10011
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I
agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant.


On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> > Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
> >
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

???
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>> _______________________________________________
>
> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>

OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel,
of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just
like those who turned up at Sun City.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid

One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

theo10011
In reply to this post by theo10011
Again the thing is the difference between the two according to the visa
stamping info on the website, most of these countries- actually a lot of
countries are going to need a visa to enter israel regardless of their
relations. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you
get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going
to be there.



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM, theo10011 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I
> agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>>
>> > Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>> >
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
>> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
>> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

Abbas Mahmood
In reply to this post by Yaroslav M. Blanter
Assess the following scenario:

If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)?

> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400
> From: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
>
> > I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> > mid-eastern
> > countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
> > also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
> Visa
> > have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> > two separate things?
> >
>
> In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
> passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
> (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them
> having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
> which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
> it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.
>
> It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
> A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To
> travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
> visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
> passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
> passport or a return certificate.
>
> To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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