Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

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Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Alex Brollo
Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.

 A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
Wikilove.

Alex
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

K. Peachey-2
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Alex Brollo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
>
>  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
> the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
> discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
> largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
> visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
> Wikilove.
>
>
>
Every two weeks for major stuff?, Apart from Sitenotices being disruptive
and stupid, And people will just start to get that used to them that they
won't even notice (or worse, use blocking technologies to get rid of them).
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Petr Bena
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
Hi,

What about subscribing to this list instead? I think that users who
want to see updates, should use relevant information channels, rather
than forcing everyone to see notices they may not be interested in.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Alex Brollo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
>
>  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
> the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
> discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
> largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
> visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
> Wikilove.
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Amir Sarabadani-2
I disagree with Alex, usually people don't give a damn about new
deployments. Just geeks and technical people (poeple who work on templates,
bots, etc.) care about these stuff

Best


On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Petr Bena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> What about subscribing to this list instead? I think that users who
> want to see updates, should use relevant information channels, rather
> than forcing everyone to see notices they may not be interested in.
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Alex Brollo <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki
> software
> > is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
> >
> >  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages
> listing
> > the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
> > discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
> > largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
> > visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
> > Wikilove.
> >
> > Alex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Petr Bena
In reply to this post by K. Peachey-2
I disagree that sitenotices are stupid or disruptive. It's a good way
to inform users about really important stuff, which unfortunatelly is
sometimes misused for something irrelevant. However this way everyone
can be informed when needed and that's good. Using this for update
information is, of course, not a best solution.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:33 AM, K. Peachey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Alex Brollo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
>> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
>>
>>  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
>> the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
>> discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
>> largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
>> visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
>> Wikilove.
>>
>>
>>
> Every two weeks for major stuff?, Apart from Sitenotices being disruptive
> and stupid, And people will just start to get that used to them that they
> won't even notice (or worse, use blocking technologies to get rid of them).
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Nikola Smolenski-2
On 05.12.2013. 11:37, Petr Bena wrote:
> I disagree that sitenotices are stupid or disruptive. It's a good way
> to inform users about really important stuff, which unfortunatelly is
> sometimes misused for something irrelevant. However this way everyone
> can be informed when needed and that's good. Using this for update
> information is, of course, not a best solution.

Maybe people could see information about software update when they first
time log in after the update? Perhaps even better: in site notifications?

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Andre Klapper-2
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:28 +0100, Alex Brollo wrote:
> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.

So a constant "Be confused and worried, every Thursday!" site notice on
Wikipedias (Tuesday for other production sites [1]) would help? ;)

andre

[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.23/Roadmap
--
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http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
Sitenotice would be an exaggeration. Google and Facebook and millions of
other sites update their software, probably even more frequently than we
do, and without any big notifications to all users every week.

People who consider themselves capable of testing new features should just
sign up to this mailing list. If the traffic here is too high or the
content too technical, I strongly recommend the wikitech-ambassadords,
which was started precisely with this in mind and is doing the job pretty
well :
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-ambassadors

My dream scenario would be to do deployments similarly to the way Mozilla
and Google release versions of their browsers - beta and release. Logged-in
users who opt in would be connected to a newer version of MediaWiki that
will be deployed to everybody the following week. Same URL, same account,
same preferences, same content - just different software. Currently with
the beta labs we don't have the same account and the same content, so it's
not as useful for crowd-sourcing the testing.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬


2013/12/5 Alex Brollo <[hidden email]>

> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
>
>  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
> the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
> discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
> largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
> visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
> Wikilove.
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
Le 05/12/13 11:28, Alex Brollo a écrit :
> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
>
>  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
> the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
> discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
> largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
> visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
> Wikilove.

Hello Alex,

The large majority of the 500 millions of users browsing our sites don't
care about software updates.  That is maybe appealing to a few thousands
user at most.  So I would prefer we do not annoy 9 times the population
of France :-D



Those interested can look at:

WMF deployment calendar:
  https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Deployment

Roadmap of MediaWiki core deployments:
  https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.23/Roadmap

Whenever a new version is pushed, a script generate an exhaustive list
of changes being deployed at:
  https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.23/wmf5

The link being reachable from the Roadmap page above.


Finally there is the very useful wikitech-ambassadors mailing list which
is used to reach out to the community whenever a big new feature is
landing in (ie change of the search backend, OAuth, HTTPS ..).  That is
worth a read :-]

 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-ambassadors


cheers,

--
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Bartosz Dziewoński
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
The sites are updated weekly, sometimes with additional deployments inbetween the scheduled ones. Constant sitenotice would be a bad idea.

I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News , which is an also weekly newsletter summarising new features and important fixed bugs every week, as well as providing links to the detailed change logs.

--
Matma Rex

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Risker
On 5 December 2013 13:08, Bartosz Dziewoński <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The sites are updated weekly, sometimes with additional deployments
> inbetween the scheduled ones. Constant sitenotice would be a bad idea.
>
> I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News ,
> which is an also weekly newsletter summarising new features and important
> fixed bugs every week, as well as providing links to the detailed change
> logs.
>
>


Not a bad idea, although every time someone says "xx needs to be
communicated better", someone else responds with "there's a mailing list
for that!"  So far, based on recommendations from *this* mailing list, I've
subscribed to half a dozen other lists that, generally speaking, didn't
give me any more information than I would have received here.  (Wikitech
Ambassadors?  Who's sending anything there? Is it useful anymore?)

Some streamlining of communication processes, and giving consideration to a
quick and straightforward process to reach information that can be done
directly from any WMF wiki, would be a really significant outreach to the
primary users.

Risker/Anne
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Thomas Gries

>> The sites are updated weekly, sometimes with additional deployments
>> inbetween the scheduled ones. Constant sitenotice would be a bad idea.
>>
>> I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News ,
>>
I suggest that MediaWiki uses Twitter to announce new MediaWiki versions
like - for example, PHP and ownCloud.


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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Quim Gil-2
In reply to this post by Bartosz Dziewoński
On 12/05/2013 10:08 AM, Bartosz Dziewoński wrote:
> I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News
> , which is an also weekly newsletter summarising new features and
> important fixed bugs every week, as well as providing links to the
> detailed change logs.

Tech News, yeah!

I fully agree. Wikimedia users confused about anything tech related (but
interested enough to share his/her confusion) should be pointed to Tech
News.

If their tech interest continues to grow, through the Tech News they
will learn about other venues, like wikitech-ambassadors, this list or
whatever specialized mailing list or wiki pages they are interested about.

--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Greg Grossmeier-2
In reply to this post by Risker
<quote name="Risker" date="2013-12-05" time="13:55:42 -0500">

> On 5 December 2013 13:08, Bartosz Dziewoński <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The sites are updated weekly, sometimes with additional deployments
> > inbetween the scheduled ones. Constant sitenotice would be a bad idea.
> >
> > I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News ,
> > which is an also weekly newsletter summarising new features and important
> > fixed bugs every week, as well as providing links to the detailed change
> > logs.
> >
> >
>
>
> Not a bad idea, although every time someone says "xx needs to be
> communicated better", someone else responds with "there's a mailing list
> for that!"  So far, based on recommendations from *this* mailing list, I've
> subscribed to half a dozen other lists that, generally speaking, didn't
> give me any more information than I would have received here.  (Wikitech
> Ambassadors?  Who's sending anything there? Is it useful anymore?)

I am, weekly, of all planned deployments.

See:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-November/000499.html

Also, Chad/Nik do regularly for search updates that are happening.

It is far from a ghost town and was deemed useful they last time I asked
for feedback:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-ambassadors/2013-August/000342.html

Greg

--
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| identi.ca: @greg                A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Risker
On 12/5/13, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5 December 2013 13:08, Bartosz Dziewoński <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The sites are updated weekly, sometimes with additional deployments
>> inbetween the scheduled ones. Constant sitenotice would be a bad idea.
>>
>> I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News ,
>> which is an also weekly newsletter summarising new features and important
>> fixed bugs every week, as well as providing links to the detailed change
>> logs.
>>
>>
>
>
> Not a bad idea, although every time someone says "xx needs to be
> communicated better", someone else responds with "there's a mailing list
> for that!"  So far, based on recommendations from *this* mailing list, I've
> subscribed to half a dozen other lists that, generally speaking, didn't
> give me any more information than I would have received here.  (Wikitech
> Ambassadors?  Who's sending anything there? Is it useful anymore?)
>
> Some streamlining of communication processes, and giving consideration to a
> quick and straightforward process to reach information that can be done
> directly from any WMF wiki, would be a really significant outreach to the
> primary users.
>
> Risker/Anne
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

As it stands we don't really summarize changes very well, which is a
prerequisite for telling people about changes. Occasionally changes
make it to Tech/news, but that seems sporadic. Posts to
wikitech-ambassadors is from what I've seen, really only for changes
we expect to cause problems, which is a small subset of the changes
people care about. Really the only in-depth list of changes coming to
a wiki near you is https://git.wikimedia.org/activity/ which includes
a lot of extra stuff, and is mostly far too technical for users to
reasonably understand.

I think the best way forward would be to more accurately describe
upcoming changes on tech/news. Once we actually have a user-readable
summary of actual changes that are happening, then we could have a
more reasonable discussion about how to get the information into
people who care's hands, without spamming people who don't. Of course
maintaining tech/news would probably require more effort being put
towards it then is currently done, which requires someone (or multiple
someones) to actually do so.

--bawolff

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Seb35
In reply to this post by Bartosz Dziewoński
Le Thu, 05 Dec 2013 19:08:15 +0100, Bartosz Dziewoński  
<[hidden email]> a écrit:
> The sites are updated weekly, sometimes with additional deployments  
> inbetween the scheduled ones. Constant sitenotice would be a bad idea.
>
> I suggest you subscribe to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News ,  
> which is an also weekly newsletter summarising new features and  
> important fixed bugs every week, as well as providing links to the  
> detailed change logs.

As a (self-appointed) wikitech-ambassador, I post sometimes messages about  
new features on the frwiki village pump (after checking if it was not  
already announced), but I don’t see why posting all deployments (there are  
many by week from the various teams): users will not read them if there  
are too much, and it would become a heavy load for ambassadors.

@Alex Brollo: do you have some specific example/situation in mind behind  
your general question?

~ Seb35

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Dan Garry
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
How about getting this stuff included in the Signpost? I think that's a
good medium for it.

There used to be a "Technology report" but I've not seen it for a while...

Dan


On 5 December 2013 10:28, Alex Brollo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Users are very confused and worried any time a new version of wiki software
> is launched and tested, and some major or minor bug comes invariably out.
>
>  A clear message using central sitenotice, with links to doc pages listing
> the changes at different levels of detail and to their talk pages to
> discuss them and to alert for bugs, is mandatory IMHO. Tech news are
> largely insufficient; evidence of work in progress should be clearly
> visible into all pages of interested projects. It's a basic matter of
> Wikilove.
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l




--
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Associate Product Manager for Platform
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Nathan Larson
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Dan Garry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How about getting this stuff included in the Signpost? I think that's a
> good medium for it.
>
> There used to be a "Technology report" but I've not seen it for a while...
>
> Dan
>

BRION, they called it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bugs,_Repairs,_and_Internal_Operational_NewsI
think they should bring it back.
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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Quim Gil-2
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
On 12/05/2013 01:22 PM, Brian Wolff wrote:
> On 12/5/13, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Some streamlining of communication processes, and giving consideration to a
>> quick and straightforward process to reach information that can be done
>> directly from any WMF wiki, would be a really significant outreach to the
>> primary users.

Yes, strongly agree.

> I think the best way forward would be to more accurately describe
> upcoming changes on tech/news. Once we actually have a user-readable
> summary of actual changes that are happening, then we could have a
> more reasonable discussion about how to get the information into
> people who care's hands, without spamming people who don't. Of course
> maintaining tech/news would probably require more effort being put
> towards it then is currently done, which requires someone (or multiple
> someones) to actually do so.

Indeed, to keep one source information up to date streaming regularly
the interesting bits from many other sources *requires hard work*. We
are lucky of having someone like Guillaume and other contributors
investing many hours on it (today mainly translators, writers are
welcome too).

In community contexts like ours, a good first step is to agree on a
streaming channel. This way everybody interested follows it, eventually
misses an important piece, eventually contributes it.

Once you have One Good Source (e.g. Tech News) it is a lot easier for
others (e.g. The Signpost) to follow and expand on specific stories
that, eventually if they add value, can be featured again in the One
Good Source.

Note also that Tech News not only reaches equally any Wikimedia user and
community page, it also can do it in the local language, as long as
someone provides a translation. The latest Tech News has been
distributed in 15 languages:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Latest

A first conclusion of this thread could be an agreement to focus on Tech
News as the one good source to subscribe to, recommend, and contribute
to via content and translations. Many more steps will be needed to
fulfill its mission, but this would be a very useful next step.

What do you think?

--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: Please use sitenotice when a new version of software is deployed

Bartosz Dziewoński
In reply to this post by Dan Garry
On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:00:04 +0100, Dan Garry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How about getting this stuff included in the Signpost? I think that's a
> good medium for it.

Signpost is English-specific, Wikipedia-specific and English-Wikipedia-specific.

--
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