Pointing out to an oddity

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Pointing out to an oddity

Florence Devouard-3
I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.

There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?

Ant


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Katie Chan
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 01:08 +0200, Florence Devouard wrote:
> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>
> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?

1200 _characters_. ;)

KTC

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Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Casey Brown-3
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>  WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>  and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>
>  There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>  questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>

Where would someone ask questions?  On the candidates' meta user talk
pages?  I saw that question come already and may have missed a
response as to where questions where to be placed.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Majorly
2008/5/14 Casey Brown <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
> >  WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
> >  and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
> >
> >  There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
> >  questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
> >
>
> Where would someone ask questions?  On the candidates' meta user talk
> pages?  I saw that question come already and may have missed a
> response as to where questions where to be placed.
>
> --
> Casey Brown
> Cbrown1023
>
> ---
> Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent
> to
> this address will probably get lost.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

Don't questions normally come after the submission period?

--
Alex Newman
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Majorly
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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Philippe Beaudette
They will this year. At this point, candidates are only submitting their
statements: they are not translated, and some are not fully verified.  The
verified candidates who meet the qualification requirements will have their
statements posted on 22 May.

Philippe

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Majorly" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:26 PM
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Pointing out to an oddity

> 2008/5/14 Casey Brown <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>> >  WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100
>> > people...
>> >  and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>> >
>> >  There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>> >  questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>> >
>>
>> Where would someone ask questions?  On the candidates' meta user talk
>> pages?  I saw that question come already and may have missed a
>> response as to where questions where to be placed.
>>
>> --
>> Casey Brown
>> Cbrown1023
>>
>> ---
>> Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent
>> to
>> this address will probably get lost.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> Don't questions normally come after the submission period?
>
> --
> Alex Newman
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Majorly
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>  WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>  and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>
>  There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>  questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>
>  Ant
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  foundation-l mailing list
>  [hidden email]
>  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

I think you may be missing the fact that "I want members of the
community (aside from those on the WMF board) to be involved in
day-to-day operations" is quite distinct from "I want to participate
in the regular election of Board members." I've not really been
involved in this issue myself, nor do I plan to be, but those are
distinct issues.

Though, of course, attention should be paid to the Board elections, as always.

--
Freedom is the right to say that 2+2=4. From this all else follows.

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Katie Chan
Kwan Ting Chan wrote:

> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 01:08 +0200, Florence Devouard wrote:
>> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>>
>> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>
> 1200 _characters_. ;)
>
> KTC

At least one person informed ;-)

ant


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Philippe Beaudette
<grin>

He's an election committee member.

Philippe

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Florence Devouard" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:51 PM
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Pointing out to an oddity

> Kwan Ting Chan wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 01:08 +0200, Florence Devouard wrote:
>>> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>>> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>>> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>>>
>>> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>>> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>>
>> 1200 _characters_. ;)
>>
>> KTC
>
> At least one person informed ;-)
>
> ant
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Harel Cain
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
You have to remember the low turnout rates in earlier board elections.
My impression, based on talking to many active wikimedians at the
local project level, is that whatever happens in meta is somewhat out
of reach, or they don't care, or it's too much to keep track of. The
local level of activity is what's important for most people. That's
especially true for the smaller languages. Choosing between candidates
who are [at least partly] unfamiliar to most voters is something that
many people will just avoid, it may feel as a "cat in the bag" to
them, or they just wouldn't care enough. People care much more about
"rogue admins" in their home project than about the identity of board
members. It's probably natural.
Attending the panel devoted to a post-mortem of the 2007 elections at
Wikimania 2007, I could just feel that this matter was of interest to
a quite distinct and not very big group of people, but not to most.

Full disclosure: I am myself one of those three brave candidates :-)


Harel

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>  WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>  and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>
>  There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>  questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>
>  Ant
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  foundation-l mailing list
>  [hidden email]
>  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Florence Devouard-3
Harel Cain wrote:

> You have to remember the low turnout rates in earlier board elections.
> My impression, based on talking to many active wikimedians at the
> local project level, is that whatever happens in meta is somewhat out
> of reach, or they don't care, or it's too much to keep track of. The
> local level of activity is what's important for most people. That's
> especially true for the smaller languages. Choosing between candidates
> who are [at least partly] unfamiliar to most voters is something that
> many people will just avoid, it may feel as a "cat in the bag" to
> them, or they just wouldn't care enough. People care much more about
> "rogue admins" in their home project than about the identity of board
> members. It's probably natural.

Certainly.
I'll note though, that they do not fail to come voting on the petition,
which might suggest the process set up to sign petition is more
effective than the process for candidating or commenting. Unless it is
easier to sign a petition than to start thinking of questions of course :-)

> Attending the panel devoted to a post-mortem of the 2007 elections at
> Wikimania 2007, I could just feel that this matter was of interest to
> a quite distinct and not very big group of people, but not to most.
>
> Full disclosure: I am myself one of those three brave candidates :-)

yeah, and apparently the only one on this list :-(
I'll ask you questions before the 22nd. I am travelling 6 days over 7 in
the "ask a question" week, so it is not super practical in terms of
communication :-(

Let me start by a small one... what is your feeling with regards to
transparency and confidentiality ?

Best

Ant

> Harel
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>>  WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>>  and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>>
>>  There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>>  questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>>
>>  Ant
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  foundation-l mailing list
>>  [hidden email]
>>  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
>


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Harel Cain
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:


>  I'll ask you questions before the 22nd. I am travelling 6 days over 7 in
>  the "ask a question" week, so it is not super practical in terms of
>  communication :-(
>
>  Let me start by a small one... what is your feeling with regards to
>  transparency and confidentiality ?

Thanks for the question, Florence. Not sure we want to start a full
Q&A session at this stage and in this medium, but since you asked,
I'll happily answer.

My experience with the Wikimedia Israel chapter has taught me that a
careful mixture of transparency and confidentiality is what works
best. I'll explain: the board (or WMF staff, for that matter) have to
strive to work in a transparent, accountable manner. This means for
example that (final) resolutions made, formal announcements, meeting
agendas, budgets, bylaws and all other paperwork have to be published
in a prompt and organized manner. The real motives behind decisions
have to be clearly and truthfully explained. The board has to be very
responsive to inquiries and suggestions from outside and actively seek
them when needed. This kind of transparency is what the community and
the general public expect from an organization with values such as
ours. It's really a lot about learning how to communicate and explain
yourself to your "clientèle" so that they learn to trust in you.
On the other hand, for the board (and WMF staff) to function
efficiently there has to be a certain sphere for internal exchange of
opinion, criticism and brainstorming that does not necessarily have to
be very transparent. As an example, detailed word-by-word protocols of
board meetings do not have to be published, whereas agendas and
meeting minutes are.  In cooperating with other organizations for
example, a period of keeping the matter secret is sometimes necessary.
Some initiatives just float around and are then quickly found to be
bad or even damaging. So there has to be enough "internal room" for
this kind of experimenting to happen without full immediate
disclosure. Immature release of information can sometimes result in
failure, as things turn out to be less promising than initially
thought and the foundation can be cast in a bad light. For sure, legal
matters or ethical considerations sometimes warrant an amount of
confidentiality. Needless to say, the board has to make sure the
foundation abides by the law.

I hope this explains my basic views about the subject without going
into excessive detail.

Harel

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Wily D
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>
> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>
> Ant
>
>
Knowing that there were three (now four) candidates, it still took me
~ten minutes of clicking around to find the presentations - I had been
under the impression that nobody had declared their candidacy.  I've
tried to fix the en one a little to make it clear any candidates have
submitted.  I say this as someone who signed the aformentioned
petition.

Cheers
WilyD

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Yaroslav M. Blanter
> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>>
>> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>>
>> Ant
>>
>>
> Knowing that there were three (now four) candidates, it still took me
> ~ten minutes of clicking around to find the presentations - I had been
> under the impression that nobody had declared their candidacy.  I've
> tried to fix the en one a little to make it clear any candidates have
> submitted.  I say this as someone who signed the aformentioned
> petition.
>

I must admit to me the topic starts to look like a... hmmm... post-modern
piece. I did not sign the petition, but I was perfectly aware (in real
time of the number of candidates submitted their presentations from the
very first day, and when the question session is coming. Should we make
any conclusions out of it?

Cheers
Yaroslav


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

elisabeth bauer-2
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
2008/5/14 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:
> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>
> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?

I don't see any candidates on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates
(the place where I would expect candicacies to show up)

greetings,
elian

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Wily D
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:12 AM, elisabeth bauer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2008/5/14 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:
>> I cannot fully reconcile requests from the community to get involved in
>> WMF's activities; a petition from prostestors of now over 100 people...
>> and the total absence of discussion related to this year elections.
>>
>> There are now three candidates. Does no one feel like asking them
>> questions beyond their 2000 words candidate statements ?
>
> I don't see any candidates on
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates
> (the place where I would expect candicacies to show up)
>
> greetings,
> elian
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Board_elections%2F2008%2FCandidates%2Fen&diff=994948&oldid=994945
Apparently we're not supposed to know that they exist yet - I don't know why.

WilyD

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by elisabeth bauer-2
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:12 +0200, elisabeth bauer wrote:

> I don't see any candidates on
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates
> (the place where I would expect candicacies to show up)

Candidate's submission is on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates/Submissions . Once the close of candidate submission period comes round, the election committee will transfer the listings of those that are verified to be eligible to the page you linked to, and translation will also begin.

Wily D wrote:
> Apparently we're not supposed to know that they exist yet - I don't
know why.

They are available on the submission page if one want to see it. The
committee would just prefer they not be as visibly available until we
have confirmed the candidates meet the eligibility criteria and that
their candidate submission meet the election regulation. This is partly
to ensure fairness to all those who stand. Say a candidate submission is
too long (as has been the case a couple of time), it does take time for
them to correct it. In the mean time, if it were all widely visible, the
other candidates can/will complain about unfair advantages gained over
the exposure to the longer statement.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine

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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Philippe Beaudette
KTC wrote:

They are available on the submission page if one want to see it. The
committee would just prefer they not be as visibly available until we
have confirmed the candidates meet the eligibility criteria and that
their candidate submission meet the election regulation. This is partly
to ensure fairness to all those who stand. Say a candidate submission is
too long (as has been the case a couple of time), it does take time for
them to correct it. In the mean time, if it were all widely visible, the
other candidates can/will complain about unfair advantages gained over
the exposure to the longer statement.

___________________________

KTC appropriate conveys the feelings of the committee on this one.  These
presentations are currently being SUBMITTED; not PRESENTED.  At this point,
they're being given to the committee so that we can begin things like
qualification of the candidate, translation of the statements, etc.  Once
they are released, they'll be in much wider distribution.  This is a
slightly different process from last year.

Philippe
 


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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Robert Rohde
In reply to this post by Katie Chan
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Kwan Ting Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:12 +0200, elisabeth bauer wrote:
>
> > I don't see any candidates on
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates
> > (the place where I would expect candicacies to show up)
>
> Candidate's submission is on
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates/Submissions. Once the close of candidate submission period comes round, the election
> committee will transfer the listings of those that are verified to be
> eligible to the page you linked to, and translation will also begin.
>
> Wily D wrote:
> > Apparently we're not supposed to know that they exist yet - I don't
> know why.
>
> They are available on the submission page if one want to see it. The
> committee would just prefer they not be as visibly available until we
> have confirmed the candidates meet the eligibility criteria and that
> their candidate submission meet the election regulation. This is partly
> to ensure fairness to all those who stand. Say a candidate submission is
> too long (as has been the case a couple of time), it does take time for
> them to correct it. In the mean time, if it were all widely visible, the
> other candidates can/will complain about unfair advantages gained over
> the exposure to the longer statement.
>
> KTC
>


Then you should remove submissions that are too long (that part at least is
trivial to check), or take less time promoting the ones that are okay, or
handle all submissions in private.  However, hiding all of the ongoing
submissions on a somewhat hard to find subpage is not a good answer in my
opinion.  Seeing who intends to stand for the elections and why has an
important influence on recruiting others.

Incidentally, my instinct was the same as WilyD's, and I added another link
to the submissions page prior to seeing this discussion.

-Robert Rohde
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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Robert Rohde
In reply to this post by Philippe Beaudette
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Philippe Beaudette <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> KTC wrote:
>
> They are available on the submission page if one want to see it. The
> committee would just prefer they not be as visibly available until we
> have confirmed the candidates meet the eligibility criteria and that
> their candidate submission meet the election regulation. This is partly
> to ensure fairness to all those who stand. Say a candidate submission is
> too long (as has been the case a couple of time), it does take time for
> them to correct it. In the mean time, if it were all widely visible, the
> other candidates can/will complain about unfair advantages gained over
> the exposure to the longer statement.
>
> ___________________________
>
> KTC appropriate conveys the feelings of the committee on this one.  These
> presentations are currently being SUBMITTED; not PRESENTED.  At this point,
> they're being given to the committee so that we can begin things like
> qualification of the candidate, translation of the statements, etc.  Once
> they are released, they'll be in much wider distribution.  This is a
> slightly different process from last year.



If the intent is to wait until the end of the submission period before
releasing any of them, then I think this process does considerable harm by
discouraging additional volunteers for the position.  While there may be a
mild advantage to the candidate to submitting early, I think there is a
bigger advantage to Wikimedia in presenting candidacies on a rolling
acceptance basis.

-Robert Rohde
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Re: Pointing out to an oddity

Birgitte_sb
In reply to this post by Robert Rohde



--- On Wed, 5/14/08, Robert Rohde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Robert Rohde <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Pointing out to an oddity
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008, 10:55 AM
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Kwan Ting Chan
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:12 +0200, elisabeth bauer
> wrote:
> >
> > > I don't see any candidates on
> > >
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates
> > > (the place where I would expect candicacies to
> show up)
> >
> > Candidate's submission is on
> >
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates/Submissions.
> Once the close of candidate submission period comes round,
> the election
> > committee will transfer the listings of those that are
> verified to be
> > eligible to the page you linked to, and translation
> will also begin.
> >
> > Wily D wrote:
> > > Apparently we're not supposed to know that
> they exist yet - I don't
> > know why.
> >
> > They are available on the submission page if one want
> to see it. The
> > committee would just prefer they not be as visibly
> available until we
> > have confirmed the candidates meet the eligibility
> criteria and that
> > their candidate submission meet the election
> regulation. This is partly
> > to ensure fairness to all those who stand. Say a
> candidate submission is
> > too long (as has been the case a couple of time), it
> does take time for
> > them to correct it. In the mean time, if it were all
> widely visible, the
> > other candidates can/will complain about unfair
> advantages gained over
> > the exposure to the longer statement.
> >
> > KTC
> >
>
>
> Then you should remove submissions that are too long (that
> part at least is
> trivial to check), or take less time promoting the ones
> that are okay, or
> handle all submissions in private.  However, hiding all of
> the ongoing
> submissions on a somewhat hard to find subpage is not a
> good answer in my
> opinion.  Seeing who intends to stand for the elections and
> why has an
> important influence on recruiting others.
>
> Incidentally, my instinct was the same as WilyD's, and
> I added another link
> to the submissions page prior to seeing this discussion.
>

I imagine keeping submissions private would hurt translation efforts.  I don't see the harm in having them somewhere hard to find so they are available to be worked on before they are advertised as being available.

Birgitte SB


     

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