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Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Andrea Forte
Hi all,


I'm representing a team of researchers from Drexel University who are
researching privacy practices among Wikipedia editors. If you have ever
thought about your privacy when editing Wikipedia or taken steps to protect
your privacy when you edit, we’d like to learn from you about it.


The study is titled “Privacy, Anonymity, and Peer Production.” Details can
be found on meta where the project was discussed before beginning
recruitment here: (
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Anonymity_and_Peer_Production).


If you would like to help us out, you need to read and complete the online
consent form linked here and we will get in contact with you:
http://andreaforte.net/wp.html.


We are planning to conduct interviews that will last anywhere from 30-90
minutes (depending on how much you have to say) by phone or Skype and we
can offer you $20 for your time, but you do not need to accept payment to
participate.


I have been researching Wikipedia since 2004 and have conducted many
studies, most of which have resulted in papers that you can find here:
http://andreaforte.net.


Thanks for considering it, please contact me if you have questions!


Andrea Forte

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andicat



and

Rachel Greenstadt

Nazanin Andalibi
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why log
the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Andrea Forte <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> I'm representing a team of researchers from Drexel University who are
> researching privacy practices among Wikipedia editors. If you have ever
> thought about your privacy when editing Wikipedia or taken steps to protect
> your privacy when you edit, we’d like to learn from you about it.
>
>
> The study is titled “Privacy, Anonymity, and Peer Production.” Details can
> be found on meta where the project was discussed before beginning
> recruitment here: (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Anonymity_and_Peer_Production).
>
>
> If you would like to help us out, you need to read and complete the online
> consent form linked here and we will get in contact with you:
> http://andreaforte.net/wp.html.
>
>
> We are planning to conduct interviews that will last anywhere from 30-90
> minutes (depending on how much you have to say) by phone or Skype and we
> can offer you $20 for your time, but you do not need to accept payment to
> participate.
>
>
> I have been researching Wikipedia since 2004 and have conducted many
> studies, most of which have resulted in papers that you can find here:
> http://andreaforte.net.
>
>
> Thanks for considering it, please contact me if you have questions!
>
>
> Andrea Forte
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andicat
>
>
>
> and
>
> Rachel Greenstadt
>
> Nazanin Andalibi
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Francesco Ariis
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why log
> the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.

I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
allowing non registered users editing rights


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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Oliver Keyes-4
In reply to this post by Brian J Mingus
I'm not seeing a reference to IP addresses in this thread or the
associated research page (my ctrl-f-fu may just be weak, though): as
to why IPs are logged server-side, well, checkuser is a useful tool
and that's how rangeblocks work.

On 25 March 2015 at 13:19, Brian J Mingus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why log
> the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Andrea Forte <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>> I'm representing a team of researchers from Drexel University who are
>> researching privacy practices among Wikipedia editors. If you have ever
>> thought about your privacy when editing Wikipedia or taken steps to protect
>> your privacy when you edit, we’d like to learn from you about it.
>>
>>
>> The study is titled “Privacy, Anonymity, and Peer Production.” Details can
>> be found on meta where the project was discussed before beginning
>> recruitment here: (
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Anonymity_and_Peer_Production).
>>
>>
>> If you would like to help us out, you need to read and complete the online
>> consent form linked here and we will get in contact with you:
>> http://andreaforte.net/wp.html.
>>
>>
>> We are planning to conduct interviews that will last anywhere from 30-90
>> minutes (depending on how much you have to say) by phone or Skype and we
>> can offer you $20 for your time, but you do not need to accept payment to
>> participate.
>>
>>
>> I have been researching Wikipedia since 2004 and have conducted many
>> studies, most of which have resulted in papers that you can find here:
>> http://andreaforte.net.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for considering it, please contact me if you have questions!
>>
>>
>> Andrea Forte
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andicat
>>
>>
>>
>> and
>>
>> Rachel Greenstadt
>>
>> Nazanin Andalibi
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l



--
Oliver Keyes
Research Analyst
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Elias Friedman
In reply to this post by Francesco Ariis
It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
Commons and other licenses we operate under.

Sent from my Droid 4
Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
[hidden email]
"יְהִי אוֹר"
On Mar 27, 2015 4:15 AM, "Francesco Ariis" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
> log
> > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
>
> I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> allowing non registered users editing rights
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
In reply to this post by Francesco Ariis
It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially given Wikimedia
is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA can't track
citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems simple :)

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
> log
> > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
>
> I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> allowing non registered users editing rights
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
A very precise timestamp would seem to suffice for attribution. Anyone
caring to prove they wrote something could take a video of them making the
edit, thus confirming the timestamp is them.

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 6:28 AM, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
>
> Sent from my Droid 4
> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> [hidden email]
> "יְהִי אוֹר"
> On Mar 27, 2015 4:15 AM, "Francesco Ariis" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
> > log
> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
> >
> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> > allowing non registered users editing rights
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by Elias Friedman
Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by an IP where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual who made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can always create an account.

Regards

Jonathan Cardy


> On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
>
> Sent from my Droid 4
> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> [hidden email]
> "יְהִי אוֹר"
>> On Mar 27, 2015 4:15 AM, "Francesco Ariis" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
>>> I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
>> log
>>> the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
>>
>> I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
>> allowing non registered users editing rights
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Elias Friedman
Nice "on paper", but the wiki-drama from the switch from GFDL was bad
enough for me.

Sent from my Droid 4
Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
[hidden email]
"יְהִי אוֹר"
On Mar 27, 2015 9:41 AM, "WereSpielChequers" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP edits.
> CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by an IP where
> in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual who made
> it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can always
> create an account.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan Cardy
>
>
> > On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
> > Commons and other licenses we operate under.
> >
> > Sent from my Droid 4
> > Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> > אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> > [hidden email]
> > "יְהִי אוֹר"
> >> On Mar 27, 2015 4:15 AM, "Francesco Ariis" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> >>> I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
> >> log
> >>> the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
> >>
> >> I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> >> allowing non registered users editing rights
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
I don't see a need to change the copyright. Just switch from the IP address
to something that doesn't allow you to personally identify the user, but
allows the user to claim ownership over the post if they want to, by
recording some bit of information. I think a cryptographer could design a
nice scheme here. This scheme should be such that neither WMF nor the
public can identify the editor, but the editor can prove that they are the
one who wrote the post.

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nice "on paper", but the wiki-drama from the switch from GFDL was bad
> enough for me.
>
> Sent from my Droid 4
> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> [hidden email]
> "יְהִי אוֹר"
> On Mar 27, 2015 9:41 AM, "WereSpielChequers" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP
> edits.
> > CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by an IP
> where
> > in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual who made
> > it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can always
> > create an account.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Jonathan Cardy
> >
> >
> > > On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
> > > Commons and other licenses we operate under.
> > >
> > > Sent from my Droid 4
> > > Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> > > אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> > > [hidden email]
> > > "יְהִי אוֹר"
> > >> On Mar 27, 2015 4:15 AM, "Francesco Ariis" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > >>> I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private.
> Why
> > >> log
> > >>> the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
> > >>
> > >> I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> > >> allowing non registered users editing rights
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Kyanos
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2
I don't believe a different license is needed. CC licenses can be used
for anonymous works: The author is not given and does not have to be
credited, but everything else (attribution of the work and share-alike)
would stay the same. So a change in the terms of use to the effect of,
"Unregistered edits are considered to have no named author," would be
sufficient.

Kyanos

On 03/27/2015 06:41 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:

> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by an IP where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual who made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can always create an account.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan Cardy
>
>
>> On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
>> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
>>
>> Sent from my Droid 4
>> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
>> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
>> [hidden email]
>> "יְהִי אוֹר"
>>

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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

James Alexander-4
The idea of the IP being more private in the history/ public logs (for
example a unique hash so that you know it's "an IP" but not where/what IP"
) is one that I know has been discussed and is desired by a good number
within the foundation including within legal. I'll try to look for the
phabricator task about it tomorrow. I think that's something that is likely
to happen, it isn't easy though and requires a fair number of resources to
be pointed at it to get it done so it's a question of priorities and
convincing those who decide those things that it should be higher. I
believe it's something, privacy wise, that legal would really like.

I think it is unlikely in the short to medium term, however, to get rid of
the IPs in the backend (in server logs and in the checkuser system for
example) because the replacements just aren't there. I've spent a good
amount of time thinking of a way to make the checkuser system as usable as
necessary without revealing IPs for example (including a consultant who
looked a lot but didn't really come up with anything we didn't know
already). I think it's doable, but it would be a very difficult and long
design process and I think it's unlikely in the near future.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Kyanos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't believe a different license is needed. CC licenses can be used for
> anonymous works: The author is not given and does not have to be credited,
> but everything else (attribution of the work and share-alike) would stay
> the same. So a change in the terms of use to the effect of, "Unregistered
> edits are considered to have no named author," would be sufficient.
>
> Kyanos
>
> On 03/27/2015 06:41 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
>
>> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP
>> edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by an IP
>> where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual who
>> made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can always
>> create an account.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Jonathan Cardy
>>
>>
>>  On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
>>> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Droid 4
>>> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
>>> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
>>> [hidden email]
>>> "יְהִי אוֹר"
>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
I think now that we are suing the NSA that it's deeply hypocritical to be
surveilling users. A quick fix: stuff the ip field with random numbers.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 8:38 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The idea of the IP being more private in the history/ public logs (for
> example a unique hash so that you know it's "an IP" but not where/what IP"
> ) is one that I know has been discussed and is desired by a good number
> within the foundation including within legal. I'll try to look for the
> phabricator task about it tomorrow. I think that's something that is likely
> to happen, it isn't easy though and requires a fair number of resources to
> be pointed at it to get it done so it's a question of priorities and
> convincing those who decide those things that it should be higher. I
> believe it's something, privacy wise, that legal would really like.
>
> I think it is unlikely in the short to medium term, however, to get rid of
> the IPs in the backend (in server logs and in the checkuser system for
> example) because the replacements just aren't there. I've spent a good
> amount of time thinking of a way to make the checkuser system as usable as
> necessary without revealing IPs for example (including a consultant who
> looked a lot but didn't really come up with anything we didn't know
> already). I think it's doable, but it would be a very difficult and long
> design process and I think it's unlikely in the near future.
>
> James Alexander
> Community Advocacy
> Wikimedia Foundation
> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Kyanos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I don't believe a different license is needed. CC licenses can be used
> for
> > anonymous works: The author is not given and does not have to be
> credited,
> > but everything else (attribution of the work and share-alike) would stay
> > the same. So a change in the terms of use to the effect of, "Unregistered
> > edits are considered to have no named author," would be sufficient.
> >
> > Kyanos
> >
> > On 03/27/2015 06:41 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP
> >> edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by
> an IP
> >> where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual
> who
> >> made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can
> always
> >> create an account.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Jonathan Cardy
> >>
> >>
> >>  On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
> >>> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my Droid 4
> >>> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> >>> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> "יְהִי אוֹר"
> >>>
> >>>
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Oliver Keyes-4
.....at which point it can no longer be used for checkuser or for
rangeblocks. I really don't see the hypocricy there. Are we:

1. Taking user data;
2. Storing it and not saying for how long;
3. Not telling the user we're taking it in the first place, and;
4. Not tellning anyone what we're using it for?

If "yes" to all of the above, the NSA is broadly analogous. If no...a
better analogy is needed.

On 28 March 2015 at 11:44, Brian J Mingus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think now that we are suing the NSA that it's deeply hypocritical to be
> surveilling users. A quick fix: stuff the ip field with random numbers.
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 8:38 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> The idea of the IP being more private in the history/ public logs (for
>> example a unique hash so that you know it's "an IP" but not where/what IP"
>> ) is one that I know has been discussed and is desired by a good number
>> within the foundation including within legal. I'll try to look for the
>> phabricator task about it tomorrow. I think that's something that is likely
>> to happen, it isn't easy though and requires a fair number of resources to
>> be pointed at it to get it done so it's a question of priorities and
>> convincing those who decide those things that it should be higher. I
>> believe it's something, privacy wise, that legal would really like.
>>
>> I think it is unlikely in the short to medium term, however, to get rid of
>> the IPs in the backend (in server logs and in the checkuser system for
>> example) because the replacements just aren't there. I've spent a good
>> amount of time thinking of a way to make the checkuser system as usable as
>> necessary without revealing IPs for example (including a consultant who
>> looked a lot but didn't really come up with anything we didn't know
>> already). I think it's doable, but it would be a very difficult and long
>> design process and I think it's unlikely in the near future.
>>
>> James Alexander
>> Community Advocacy
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Kyanos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't believe a different license is needed. CC licenses can be used
>> for
>> > anonymous works: The author is not given and does not have to be
>> credited,
>> > but everything else (attribution of the work and share-alike) would stay
>> > the same. So a change in the terms of use to the effect of, "Unregistered
>> > edits are considered to have no named author," would be sufficient.
>> >
>> > Kyanos
>> >
>> > On 03/27/2015 06:41 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
>> >
>> >> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP
>> >> edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by
>> an IP
>> >> where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual
>> who
>> >> made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can
>> always
>> >> create an account.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> Jonathan Cardy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the Creative
>> >>> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my Droid 4
>> >>> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
>> >>> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> "יְהִי אוֹר"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l



--
Oliver Keyes
Research Analyst
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
Do you see the irony here?

The NSA needs to keep harvesting metadata in order to stop terrorism.

The WMF needs to keep harvesting metadata in order to stop vandalism.

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> .....at which point it can no longer be used for checkuser or for
> rangeblocks. I really don't see the hypocricy there. Are we:
>
> 1. Taking user data;
> 2. Storing it and not saying for how long;
> 3. Not telling the user we're taking it in the first place, and;
> 4. Not tellning anyone what we're using it for?
>
> If "yes" to all of the above, the NSA is broadly analogous. If no...a
> better analogy is needed.
>
> On 28 March 2015 at 11:44, Brian J Mingus <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I think now that we are suing the NSA that it's deeply hypocritical to be
> > surveilling users. A quick fix: stuff the ip field with random numbers.
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 8:38 AM, James Alexander <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> The idea of the IP being more private in the history/ public logs (for
> >> example a unique hash so that you know it's "an IP" but not where/what
> IP"
> >> ) is one that I know has been discussed and is desired by a good number
> >> within the foundation including within legal. I'll try to look for the
> >> phabricator task about it tomorrow. I think that's something that is
> likely
> >> to happen, it isn't easy though and requires a fair number of resources
> to
> >> be pointed at it to get it done so it's a question of priorities and
> >> convincing those who decide those things that it should be higher. I
> >> believe it's something, privacy wise, that legal would really like.
> >>
> >> I think it is unlikely in the short to medium term, however, to get rid
> of
> >> the IPs in the backend (in server logs and in the checkuser system for
> >> example) because the replacements just aren't there. I've spent a good
> >> amount of time thinking of a way to make the checkuser system as usable
> as
> >> necessary without revealing IPs for example (including a consultant who
> >> looked a lot but didn't really come up with anything we didn't know
> >> already). I think it's doable, but it would be a very difficult and long
> >> design process and I think it's unlikely in the near future.
> >>
> >> James Alexander
> >> Community Advocacy
> >> Wikimedia Foundation
> >> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Kyanos <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I don't believe a different license is needed. CC licenses can be used
> >> for
> >> > anonymous works: The author is not given and does not have to be
> >> credited,
> >> > but everything else (attribution of the work and share-alike) would
> stay
> >> > the same. So a change in the terms of use to the effect of,
> "Unregistered
> >> > edits are considered to have no named author," would be sufficient.
> >> >
> >> > Kyanos
> >> >
> >> > On 03/27/2015 06:41 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP
> >> >> edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by
> >> an IP
> >> >> where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual
> >> who
> >> >> made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can
> >> always
> >> >> create an account.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards
> >> >>
> >> >> Jonathan Cardy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>  On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the
> Creative
> >> >>> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sent from my Droid 4
> >> >>> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
> >> >>> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
> >> >>> [hidden email]
> >> >>> "יְהִי אוֹר"
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Research Analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

WereSpielChequers-2
The WMF keeps data on an informed group of people, those who edit on WMF sites, and for a fixed period of time, (apart of course from the public listing of IP addresses).

If the NSA was only keeping data for as long as the WMF and only keeping data on people who post on the NSA site then the comparison would be more meaningful. I'm not actually suggesting that the NSA match the WMF for privacy, but then I doubt that the WMF would try importing the sort of data on everyone that the NSA tries to hoover up.

Regards

Jonathan Cardy


> On 29 Mar 2015, at 14:18, Brian J Mingus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Do you see the irony here?
>
> The NSA needs to keep harvesting metadata in order to stop terrorism.
>
> The WMF needs to keep harvesting metadata in order to stop vandalism.
>
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> .....at which point it can no longer be used for checkuser or for
>> rangeblocks. I really don't see the hypocricy there. Are we:
>>
>> 1. Taking user data;
>> 2. Storing it and not saying for how long;
>> 3. Not telling the user we're taking it in the first place, and;
>> 4. Not tellning anyone what we're using it for?
>>
>> If "yes" to all of the above, the NSA is broadly analogous. If no...a
>> better analogy is needed.
>>
>> On 28 March 2015 at 11:44, Brian J Mingus <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> I think now that we are suing the NSA that it's deeply hypocritical to be
>>> surveilling users. A quick fix: stuff the ip field with random numbers.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 8:38 AM, James Alexander <
>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The idea of the IP being more private in the history/ public logs (for
>>>> example a unique hash so that you know it's "an IP" but not where/what
>> IP"
>>>> ) is one that I know has been discussed and is desired by a good number
>>>> within the foundation including within legal. I'll try to look for the
>>>> phabricator task about it tomorrow. I think that's something that is
>> likely
>>>> to happen, it isn't easy though and requires a fair number of resources
>> to
>>>> be pointed at it to get it done so it's a question of priorities and
>>>> convincing those who decide those things that it should be higher. I
>>>> believe it's something, privacy wise, that legal would really like.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is unlikely in the short to medium term, however, to get rid
>> of
>>>> the IPs in the backend (in server logs and in the checkuser system for
>>>> example) because the replacements just aren't there. I've spent a good
>>>> amount of time thinking of a way to make the checkuser system as usable
>> as
>>>> necessary without revealing IPs for example (including a consultant who
>>>> looked a lot but didn't really come up with anything we didn't know
>>>> already). I think it's doable, but it would be a very difficult and long
>>>> design process and I think it's unlikely in the near future.
>>>>
>>>> James Alexander
>>>> Community Advocacy
>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Kyanos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe a different license is needed. CC licenses can be used
>>>> for
>>>>> anonymous works: The author is not given and does not have to be
>>>> credited,
>>>>> but everything else (attribution of the work and share-alike) would
>> stay
>>>>> the same. So a change in the terms of use to the effect of,
>> "Unregistered
>>>>> edits are considered to have no named author," would be sufficient.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kyanos
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/27/2015 06:41 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps we should move to a different licensing model for future IP
>>>>>> edits. CC0 for IP edits would be a more sensible license for edits by
>>>> an IP
>>>>>> where in many cases no-one could attribute the edit to the individual
>>>> who
>>>>>> made it. If people don't want to release their edits as CC0 they can
>>>> always
>>>>>> create an account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jonathan Cardy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27 Mar 2015, at 10:28, Elias Friedman <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's actually required so as to provide attribution as per the
>> Creative
>>>>>>> Commons and other licenses we operate under.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my Droid 4
>>>>>>> Elias Friedman A.S., CCEMT-P
>>>>>>> אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> "יְהִי אוֹר"
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oliver Keyes
>> Research Analyst
>> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

James Farrar
In reply to this post by Brian J Mingus
Wikipedia is suing the NSA? Seriously?
On 28 Mar 2015 11:23, "Brian J Mingus" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially given Wikimedia
> is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA can't track
> citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems simple :)
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
> > log
> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
> >
> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> > allowing non registered users editing rights
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Oliver Keyes-4
In order:

1. Yes, the WMF is suing the NSA. There are a few threads/blog posts
about this people here can point you to.
2. Brian: The NSA needs to store data without the permission or
consent of the people generating it, sometimes through forcible
interception, decryption and the introduction and maintenance of
software exploits that allow them to do this but also allow any other
reasonably technical nation or non-nation actor who is paying
attention to exploit the same vulnerability, keeping this data for an
indefinite period, with very little legal or political oversight, in
order to stop terrorism, where very little evidence exists that this
has helped in any way.

The WMF needs to store data for a 90 day period, which is explicitly
set down in a privacy policy that is transparent, human-readable,
linked from every edit interface, written with the involvement of the
people whose data is being stored, administered by a committee of
people who come from this population of editors, and explicitly sets
out what the data may or may not be used for, even within the
Wikimedia Foundation, in order to stop vandalism, where multiple
scientific studies have validated the hypothesis that being able to
make rangeblocks and prohibit sockpuppetry is beneficial to the
community we are all a part of and the wider population of readers.

That's what's actually going on, here. If you thing these situations
are roughly analogous, that's your prerogative. If you think the
storage of this data is unnecessary, I recommend you go to your local
project and explain to them that being able to checkuser potential
sockpuppets or hard-block users is not needed: gaining consensus there
would be a good starting point to changing this.

On 29 March 2015 at 11:57, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wikipedia is suing the NSA? Seriously?
> On 28 Mar 2015 11:23, "Brian J Mingus" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially given Wikimedia
>> is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA can't track
>> citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems simple :)
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
>> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. Why
>> > log
>> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
>> >
>> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
>> > allowing non registered users editing rights
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l



--
Oliver Keyes
Research Analyst
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Brian J Mingus
In general people do not read privacy policies, nor do they understand what
IP addresses are or what you can do with them.

But if you recall, I simply stated that recording IP addresses is invasive.
And it is.

This is especially true when you know that your recordings are faciliating
the active de-anonymization of people who are editing Wikipedia. Not just
de-anonymization, but often public shaming.

For WMF, the principle of neutrality clearly trumps the principles of
privacy and free speech. For the NSA, substitute security for neutrality.
It's hypocritical.

Luckily, it's easy to fix. Just stuff the ip fields with random numbers and
deal with the fallout. Stop tracking people.



On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In order:
>
> 1. Yes, the WMF is suing the NSA. There are a few threads/blog posts
> about this people here can point you to.
> 2. Brian: The NSA needs to store data without the permission or
> consent of the people generating it, sometimes through forcible
> interception, decryption and the introduction and maintenance of
> software exploits that allow them to do this but also allow any other
> reasonably technical nation or non-nation actor who is paying
> attention to exploit the same vulnerability, keeping this data for an
> indefinite period, with very little legal or political oversight, in
> order to stop terrorism, where very little evidence exists that this
> has helped in any way.
>
> The WMF needs to store data for a 90 day period, which is explicitly
> set down in a privacy policy that is transparent, human-readable,
> linked from every edit interface, written with the involvement of the
> people whose data is being stored, administered by a committee of
> people who come from this population of editors, and explicitly sets
> out what the data may or may not be used for, even within the
> Wikimedia Foundation, in order to stop vandalism, where multiple
> scientific studies have validated the hypothesis that being able to
> make rangeblocks and prohibit sockpuppetry is beneficial to the
> community we are all a part of and the wider population of readers.
>
> That's what's actually going on, here. If you thing these situations
> are roughly analogous, that's your prerogative. If you think the
> storage of this data is unnecessary, I recommend you go to your local
> project and explain to them that being able to checkuser potential
> sockpuppets or hard-block users is not needed: gaining consensus there
> would be a good starting point to changing this.
>
> On 29 March 2015 at 11:57, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Wikipedia is suing the NSA? Seriously?
> > On 28 Mar 2015 11:23, "Brian J Mingus" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially given
> Wikimedia
> >> is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA can't track
> >> citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems simple :)
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
> >> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private.
> Why
> >> > log
> >> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
> >> >
> >> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
> >> > allowing non registered users editing rights
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Research Analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: Privacy Study Looking for Volunteers

Oliver Keyes-4
Yes, you did state that, but you equated the explanation and
circumstances with the NSA's behaviour, when in actual fact they are
very different. I note that while you've argued that privacy policies
aren't read, that's as far as your rebuttal goes.

There's no trump of one principle over another, and this is nothing to
do with content neutrality; again, I invite you to surface your
proposal on enwiki. It will completely eliminate the utility of
checkuser or hard-blocks or range blocks, but if the community wants
it as much as you seem to think I'm sure they'll support the idea.

On 29 March 2015 at 14:10, Brian J Mingus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In general people do not read privacy policies, nor do they understand what
> IP addresses are or what you can do with them.
>
> But if you recall, I simply stated that recording IP addresses is invasive.
> And it is.
>
> This is especially true when you know that your recordings are faciliating
> the active de-anonymization of people who are editing Wikipedia. Not just
> de-anonymization, but often public shaming.
>
> For WMF, the principle of neutrality clearly trumps the principles of
> privacy and free speech. For the NSA, substitute security for neutrality.
> It's hypocritical.
>
> Luckily, it's easy to fix. Just stuff the ip fields with random numbers and
> deal with the fallout. Stop tracking people.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> In order:
>>
>> 1. Yes, the WMF is suing the NSA. There are a few threads/blog posts
>> about this people here can point you to.
>> 2. Brian: The NSA needs to store data without the permission or
>> consent of the people generating it, sometimes through forcible
>> interception, decryption and the introduction and maintenance of
>> software exploits that allow them to do this but also allow any other
>> reasonably technical nation or non-nation actor who is paying
>> attention to exploit the same vulnerability, keeping this data for an
>> indefinite period, with very little legal or political oversight, in
>> order to stop terrorism, where very little evidence exists that this
>> has helped in any way.
>>
>> The WMF needs to store data for a 90 day period, which is explicitly
>> set down in a privacy policy that is transparent, human-readable,
>> linked from every edit interface, written with the involvement of the
>> people whose data is being stored, administered by a committee of
>> people who come from this population of editors, and explicitly sets
>> out what the data may or may not be used for, even within the
>> Wikimedia Foundation, in order to stop vandalism, where multiple
>> scientific studies have validated the hypothesis that being able to
>> make rangeblocks and prohibit sockpuppetry is beneficial to the
>> community we are all a part of and the wider population of readers.
>>
>> That's what's actually going on, here. If you thing these situations
>> are roughly analogous, that's your prerogative. If you think the
>> storage of this data is unnecessary, I recommend you go to your local
>> project and explain to them that being able to checkuser potential
>> sockpuppets or hard-block users is not needed: gaining consensus there
>> would be a good starting point to changing this.
>>
>> On 29 March 2015 at 11:57, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Wikipedia is suing the NSA? Seriously?
>> > On 28 Mar 2015 11:23, "Brian J Mingus" <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially given
>> >> Wikimedia
>> >> is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA can't track
>> >> citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems simple :)
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote:
>> >> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private.
>> >> > > Why
>> >> > log
>> >> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive.
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still
>> >> > allowing non registered users editing rights
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > WikiEN-l mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> >> >
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> [hidden email]
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>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > [hidden email]
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oliver Keyes
>> Research Analyst
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>



--
Oliver Keyes
Research Analyst
Wikimedia Foundation

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