Proposal for a developer support channel

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Proposal for a developer support channel

Quim Gil-2
Hi,

The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a developer
support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on Discourse
(starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to point the
many existing scattered channels there.

This is an initial proposal for a pilot. If the pilot is successful, we
will move it production. For that to happen we still need to sync well with
Wikimedia Cloud Services, Operations and the Wikimedia technical community.

Please check https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse and share your
feedback.

--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Brian Wolff
On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a developer
> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on Discourse
> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to point
the
> many existing scattered channels there.
>
> This is an initial proposal for a pilot. If the pilot is successful, we
> will move it production. For that to happen we still need to sync well
with
> Wikimedia Cloud Services, Operations and the Wikimedia technical
community.

>
> Please check https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse and share your
> feedback.
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?

--
bawolff
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

MZMcBride-2
Brian Wolff wrote:
>On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a developer
>> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
>> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on Discourse
>> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to point
>>the many existing scattered channels there.
>
>What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
>planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?

Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.

I raised a similar point at
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some answers, and
I didn't find any.

Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
#mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you involved
in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how it
would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or shutting
down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.

MZMcBride



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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Quim Gil-2
Hi, I have expanded
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_seek_developer_support

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining are
the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
there. First we need to run a successful pilot.

The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for something
else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers, they
will continue doing whatever they do now.

> I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.

For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki Talk
pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used to
any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is them,
not us.

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brian Wolff wrote:
> >On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a developer
> >> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
> >> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on Discourse
> >> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to point
> >>the many existing scattered channels there.
> >
> >What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
> >planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
>
> Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
>
> I raised a similar point at
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some answers, and
> I didn't find any.
>
> Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
> #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you involved
> in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how it
> would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or shutting
> down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
> suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Niharika Kohli-2
I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout on
the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot of
repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.

Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
<https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki>,
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
<https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest>,
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...

I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum for
support.

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, I have expanded
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
> seek_developer_support
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
> whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining are
> the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
> there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
>
> The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for something
> else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers, they
> will continue doing whatever they do now.
>
> > I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
>
> For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
> question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
> improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki Talk
> pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used to
> any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is them,
> not us.
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Brian Wolff wrote:
> > >On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a developer
> > >> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
> > >> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on
> Discourse
> > >> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to
> point
> > >>the many existing scattered channels there.
> > >
> > >What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
> > >planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
> >
> > Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
> >
> > I raised a similar point at
> > <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
> > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some answers,
> and
> > I didn't find any.
> >
> > Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
> > #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you involved
> > in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how it
> > would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or shutting
> > down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
> > suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve
> matters.
> >
> > MZMcBride
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Niharika
Software Engineer
Community Tech
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Max Semenik
Who's gonna maintain this installation?

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Niharika Kohli <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout on
> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot of
> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>
> Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
> mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
> about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
> https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
> <https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki>,
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest>,
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...
>
> I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
> lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum for
> support.
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi, I have expanded
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
> > seek_developer_support
> >
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
> > whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining are
> > the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
> > there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
> >
> > The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for something
> > else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers,
> they
> > will continue doing whatever they do now.
> >
> > > I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
> >
> > For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
> > question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
> > improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki
> Talk
> > pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used to
> > any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is them,
> > not us.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Brian Wolff wrote:
> > > >On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a
> developer
> > > >> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
> > > >> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on
> > Discourse
> > > >> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to
> > point
> > > >>the many existing scattered channels there.
> > > >
> > > >What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
> > > >planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
> > >
> > > Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
> > >
> > > I raised a similar point at
> > > <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
> > > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some answers,
> > and
> > > I didn't find any.
> > >
> > > Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
> > > #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you
> involved
> > > in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how it
> > > would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or
> shutting
> > > down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
> > > suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve
> > matters.
> > >
> > > MZMcBride
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Quim Gil
> > Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Niharika
> Software Engineer
> Community Tech
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Best regards,
Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Quim Gil-2
On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Who's gonna maintain this installation?
>

The current status is explained at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#Maintenance

This is a proposal coming from the Technical Collaboration team and we have
more or less everything we need to run the pilot. The draft plan already
says that in the mid term (and before moving to production) we need to
clarify what is the involvement of the Wikimedia Cloud Services team (who
also organizes developer support activities) and Operations. These
conversations are just starting with the publication of the draft plan.

--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Sam Wilson
In reply to this post by Niharika Kohli-2
Hear hear to being able to properly search past conversations.

I know it's not the fashionably geek thing to say, but I must admit that
I always find mailing lists to be incredibly annoying, compared to
forums. Not only is searching completely separate from reading, even
browsing old topics is another interface again (assuming one hasn't been
subscribed forever and kept every old message). Then, when you do manage
to find an old message, there's no way to reply to it (short of copying
and pasting and losing context).

Maybe https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk (and its
sibling https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Current_issues ?) is the
best place to ask questions about the software, its development, and
other things. If so, let's make that fact much more well advertised!
(Although, I think Flow is brilliant, when it's for discussing a wiki
page — because the topic is already set (effectively by the title of the
page its attached to). When it's trying to be a host to multiple
unrelated topics, it becomes pretty annoying to use.)

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, at 05:57 AM, Niharika Kohli wrote:

> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
> on
> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
> of
> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>
> Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
> mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
> about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
> https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
> <https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki>,
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest>,
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...
>
> I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
> lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum
> for
> support.
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi, I have expanded
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
> > seek_developer_support
> >
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
> > whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining are
> > the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
> > there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
> >
> > The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for something
> > else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers, they
> > will continue doing whatever they do now.
> >
> > > I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
> >
> > For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
> > question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
> > improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki Talk
> > pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used to
> > any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is them,
> > not us.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Brian Wolff wrote:
> > > >On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a developer
> > > >> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding New
> > > >> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on
> > Discourse
> > > >> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to
> > point
> > > >>the many existing scattered channels there.
> > > >
> > > >What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
> > > >planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
> > >
> > > Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
> > >
> > > I raised a similar point at
> > > <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
> > > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some answers,
> > and
> > > I didn't find any.
> > >
> > > Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
> > > #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you involved
> > > in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how it
> > > would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or shutting
> > > down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
> > > suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve
> > matters.
> > >
> > > MZMcBride
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Quim Gil
> > Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Niharika
> Software Engineer
> Community Tech
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Brian Wolff
Neither project:support_desk nor project:current_issues is really meant for
that purpose - support desk is mainly for user and (external) sysadmin
support. And current_issues is the village pump of mediawiki.org (the
website not the software)

Honestly, I kind of think that lqt was better than flow for support desk.
As much as lqt sucked at least search sort of worked.

Although the bigger problem probably is that project:support desk is
protected so new users arent allowed to ask questions(!)

On the subject of search, i do think that
https://lists.wikimedia.org/robots.txt is rediculous. At least for
technical lists we should let google in, and the privacy concern is silly
as there are mirrors that are indexed.

--
bawolff

On Saturday, November 18, 2017, Sam Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hear hear to being able to properly search past conversations.
>
> I know it's not the fashionably geek thing to say, but I must admit that
> I always find mailing lists to be incredibly annoying, compared to
> forums. Not only is searching completely separate from reading, even
> browsing old topics is another interface again (assuming one hasn't been
> subscribed forever and kept every old message). Then, when you do manage
> to find an old message, there's no way to reply to it (short of copying
> and pasting and losing context).
>
> Maybe https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk (and its
> sibling https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Current_issues ?) is the
> best place to ask questions about the software, its development, and
> other things. If so, let's make that fact much more well advertised!
> (Although, I think Flow is brilliant, when it's for discussing a wiki
> page — because the topic is already set (effectively by the title of the
> page its attached to). When it's trying to be a host to multiple
> unrelated topics, it becomes pretty annoying to use.)
>
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, at 05:57 AM, Niharika Kohli wrote:
>> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
>> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
>> on
>> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
>> of
>> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>>
>> Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
>> mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
>> about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
>> https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
>> <https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki>,
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
>> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest>,
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...
>>
>> I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
>> lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum
>> for
>> support.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi, I have expanded
>> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
>> > seek_developer_support
>> >
>> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
>> > whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining
are
>> > the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
>> > there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
>> >
>> > The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for
something
>> > else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers,
they
>> > will continue doing whatever they do now.
>> >
>> > > I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
>> >
>> > For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
>> > question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
>> > improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki
Talk
>> > pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used
to
>> > any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is
them,
>> > not us.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Brian Wolff wrote:
>> > > >On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > >> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a
developer
>> > > >> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding
New

>> > > >> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on
>> > Discourse
>> > > >> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to
>> > point
>> > > >>the many existing scattered channels there.
>> > > >
>> > > >What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
>> > > >planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
>> > >
>> > > Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
>> > >
>> > > I raised a similar point at
>> > > <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
>> > > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some
answers,
>> > and
>> > > I didn't find any.
>> > >
>> > > Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
>> > > #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you
involved
>> > > in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how
it
>> > > would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or
shutting

>> > > down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
>> > > suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve
>> > matters.
>> > >
>> > > MZMcBride
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Quim Gil
>> > Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
>> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Niharika
>> Software Engineer
>> Community Tech
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Brian Wolff
I was wrong about Support_desk being permenantly semi-protected. It
was temporarily semi-protected for 3 days, but that's been lifted now.

Regardless of spam concerns, point still stands that it seems bad form
to semi-protect the venue where newbies are supposed to ask for help.
Not that i have any better solution to the spam issue.

--
bawolff

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Neither project:support_desk nor project:current_issues is really meant for
> that purpose - support desk is mainly for user and (external) sysadmin
> support. And current_issues is the village pump of mediawiki.org (the
> website not the software)
>
> Honestly, I kind of think that lqt was better than flow for support desk. As
> much as lqt sucked at least search sort of worked.
>
> Although the bigger problem probably is that project:support desk is
> protected so new users arent allowed to ask questions(!)
>
> On the subject of search, i do think that
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/robots.txt is rediculous. At least for technical
> lists we should let google in, and the privacy concern is silly as there are
> mirrors that are indexed.
>
> --
> bawolff
>
>
> On Saturday, November 18, 2017, Sam Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hear hear to being able to properly search past conversations.
>>
>> I know it's not the fashionably geek thing to say, but I must admit that
>> I always find mailing lists to be incredibly annoying, compared to
>> forums. Not only is searching completely separate from reading, even
>> browsing old topics is another interface again (assuming one hasn't been
>> subscribed forever and kept every old message). Then, when you do manage
>> to find an old message, there's no way to reply to it (short of copying
>> and pasting and losing context).
>>
>> Maybe https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk (and its
>> sibling https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Current_issues ?) is the
>> best place to ask questions about the software, its development, and
>> other things. If so, let's make that fact much more well advertised!
>> (Although, I think Flow is brilliant, when it's for discussing a wiki
>> page — because the topic is already set (effectively by the title of the
>> page its attached to). When it's trying to be a host to multiple
>> unrelated topics, it becomes pretty annoying to use.)
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, at 05:57 AM, Niharika Kohli wrote:
>>> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
>>> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
>>> on
>>> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
>>> of
>>> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>>>
>>> Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
>>> mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
>>> about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki>,
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest>,
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...
>>>
>>> I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
>>> lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum
>>> for
>>> support.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi, I have expanded
>>> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
>>> > seek_developer_support
>>> >
>>> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
>>> > whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining
>>> > are
>>> > the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
>>> > there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
>>> >
>>> > The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for
>>> > something
>>> > else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers,
>>> > they
>>> > will continue doing whatever they do now.
>>> >
>>> > > I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
>>> >
>>> > For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
>>> > question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
>>> > improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki
>>> > Talk
>>> > pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used
>>> > to
>>> > any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is
>>> > them,
>>> > not us.
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Brian Wolff wrote:
>>> > > >On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > > >> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a
>>> > > >> developer
>>> > > >> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding
>>> > > >> New
>>> > > >> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on
>>> > Discourse
>>> > > >> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to
>>> > point
>>> > > >>the many existing scattered channels there.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
>>> > > >planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
>>> > >
>>> > > Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
>>> > >
>>> > > I raised a similar point at
>>> > > <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
>>> > > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some
>>> > > answers,
>>> > and
>>> > > I didn't find any.
>>> > >
>>> > > Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
>>> > > #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you
>>> > > involved
>>> > > in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how
>>> > > it
>>> > > would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or
>>> > > shutting
>>> > > down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
>>> > > suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve
>>> > matters.
>>> > >
>>> > > MZMcBride
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> > > [hidden email]
>>> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Quim Gil
>>> > Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
>>> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Niharika
>>> Software Engineer
>>> Community Tech
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Federico Leva (Nemo)
If the proposal is triggered by technical problems at
[[mw:Project:Support desk]], a simple solution is to make it a wikitext
page.

As for the "one place" argument, https://xkcd.com/927/ applies.

Federico

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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

nischay nahata
I being a MediaWiki developer see this as a great step forward. Currently
there are too many channels, where the information is all scattered around.

Finding help seems impossible at times on IRC. Mailing lists are difficult
to follow. For search I use a Google so it kind of works, but the archives
are difficult to comprehend. Discourse sounds like a great alternative.

I would also ask if there's a possibility to import content from other
places to the new Discourse site, if that's not too much to ask(fingers
crossed).

On Nov 19, 2017 8:43 PM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If the proposal is triggered by technical problems at [[mw:Project:Support
> desk]], a simple solution is to make it a wikitext page.
>
> As for the "one place" argument, https://xkcd.com/927/ applies.
>
> Federico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
In reply to this post by Niharika Kohli-2
On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Niharika Kohli <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout on
> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot of
> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>

No discussion system I've ever seen has managed to solve the problem of
people asking the same question instead of searching for past replies. I'm
skeptical that this new one will be any different.

Yes, the existing mailing lists have issues with searchability, although to
a large extent that's due to a misguided robots.txt policy preventing the
archives from being indexed in the first place.


--
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Florian Schmidt
In reply to this post by Federico Leva (Nemo)
In my personal opinion, switching the support desk to wikitext only doesn't solve problems for newcomers. I also don't like discussion pages, because of wikitext, and the support desk (where a high amount of things could happen) is really impossible to follow for me with a wikitext page only. However, Flow also isn't a really good solution, even if it made some things better, though.

In my personal opinion, Discourse could very well replace the support desk as a support channel, at least when I compare both platforms and feature sets for me :)

However, you're right, implementing a new platform without having the goal to replace the other platforms with it, doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, without having a pilot for people actually supporting users on the support desk, to find out, if it is a platform they can work with, isn't really helpful. And, like I said, Discourse has a good chance of being a better platform for giving support as the current Support desk (and probably also better as the IRC channel and probably the mediawiki-l mailing list, too).

Best
Florian

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel
Datum: 2017-11-19T16:14:14+0100
Von: "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]>
An: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>

If the proposal is triggered by technical problems at
[[mw:Project:Support desk]], a simple solution is to make it a wikitext
page.

As for the "one place" argument, https://xkcd.com/927/ applies.

Federico

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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Florian Schmidt
In reply to this post by Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
I totally agree, that it's very unlikely, that we can solve the problem of having newcomers ask the same questions over and over again with a technical tool, however, it's probably easier for people who _wants_ to search before they ask, if they've the possibility to do so. This is most likely not all of the newcomers, but isn't it still worth it? :D

Best,
Florian

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel
Datum: 2017-11-19T23:41:29+0100
Von: "Brad Jorsch (Anomie)" <[hidden email]>
An: "Wikimedia developers" <[hidden email]>

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Niharika Kohli <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout on
> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot of
> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>

No discussion system I've ever seen has managed to solve the problem of
people asking the same question instead of searching for past replies. I'm
skeptical that this new one will be any different.

Yes, the existing mailing lists have issues with searchability, although to
a large extent that's due to a misguided robots.txt policy preventing the
archives from being indexed in the first place.


--
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Jan Dittrich
I am admin of a discourse community (https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/)
and could answer questions about its use, if you are interested.

Jan


2017-11-20 10:10 GMT+00:00 Florian Schmidt <
[hidden email]>:

> I totally agree, that it's very unlikely, that we can solve the problem of
> having newcomers ask the same questions over and over again with a
> technical tool, however, it's probably easier for people who _wants_ to
> search before they ask, if they've the possibility to do so. This is most
> likely not all of the newcomers, but isn't it still worth it? :D
>
> Best,
> Florian
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel
> Datum: 2017-11-19T23:41:29+0100
> Von: "Brad Jorsch (Anomie)" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Wikimedia developers" <[hidden email]>
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Niharika Kohli <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
> > channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
> on
> > the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
> of
> > repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
> >
>
> No discussion system I've ever seen has managed to solve the problem of
> people asking the same question instead of searching for past replies. I'm
> skeptical that this new one will be any different.
>
> Yes, the existing mailing lists have issues with searchability, although to
> a large extent that's due to a misguided robots.txt policy preventing the
> archives from being indexed in the first place.
>
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Jan Dittrich
UX Design/ User Research

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de

Imagine a world, in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That‘s our commitment.

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

Quim Gil-2
Hi, just a note to say that a test Discourse instance with a Sandbox for
all kinds of tests is available at https://discourse.wmflabs.org/c/Sandbox

This is an instance that Ad Huikeshoven and others set up almost a couple
of years ago to explore Discourse as a complement to mailing lists (
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124690). *This is not the instance where
the developers support pilot will be run*, but it is just as good to test
Discourse.

Thanks to Sam Wilson for resuscitating this instance, and to Ad and other
promoters for setting it up in the first place.

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Jan Dittrich <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I am admin of a discourse community (https://discourse.
> opensourcedesign.net/)
> and could answer questions about its use, if you are interested.
>
> Jan
>
>
> 2017-11-20 10:10 GMT+00:00 Florian Schmidt <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> > I totally agree, that it's very unlikely, that we can solve the problem
> of
> > having newcomers ask the same questions over and over again with a
> > technical tool, however, it's probably easier for people who _wants_ to
> > search before they ask, if they've the possibility to do so. This is most
> > likely not all of the newcomers, but isn't it still worth it? :D
> >
> > Best,
> > Florian
> >
> > -----Original-Nachricht-----
> > Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel
> > Datum: 2017-11-19T23:41:29+0100
> > Von: "Brad Jorsch (Anomie)" <[hidden email]>
> > An: "Wikimedia developers" <[hidden email]>
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Niharika Kohli <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
> > > channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you
> hangout
> > on
> > > the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
> > of
> > > repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and
> effort.
> > >
> >
> > No discussion system I've ever seen has managed to solve the problem of
> > people asking the same question instead of searching for past replies.
> I'm
> > skeptical that this new one will be any different.
> >
> > Yes, the existing mailing lists have issues with searchability, although
> to
> > a large extent that's due to a misguided robots.txt policy preventing the
> > archives from being indexed in the first place.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> > Senior Software Engineer
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jan Dittrich
> UX Design/ User Research
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0
> http://wikimedia.de
>
> Imagine a world, in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. That‘s our commitment.
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



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http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Quim Gil-2
Hi Quim,

Does it have already SUL support?

Quickly,
mathieu


Le 19/11/2017 à 01:45, Quim Gil a écrit :

> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Who's gonna maintain this installation?
>>
> The current status is explained at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#Maintenance
>
> This is a proposal coming from the Technical Collaboration team and we have
> more or less everything we need to run the pilot. The draft plan already
> says that in the mid term (and before moving to production) we need to
> clarify what is the involvement of the Wikimedia Cloud Services team (who
> also organizes developer support activities) and Operations. These
> conversations are just starting with the publication of the draft plan.
>

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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Quim Gil-2
Hi again,

Will the published content under a free license? That might seems
obvious but that is something which isn't granted with IRC or mailling
lists.

Legislately,
mathieu


Le 19/11/2017 à 01:45, Quim Gil a écrit :

> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Who's gonna maintain this installation?
>>
> The current status is explained at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#Maintenance
>
> This is a proposal coming from the Technical Collaboration team and we have
> more or less everything we need to run the pilot. The draft plan already
> says that in the mid term (and before moving to production) we need to
> clarify what is the involvement of the Wikimedia Cloud Services team (who
> also organizes developer support activities) and Operations. These
> conversations are just starting with the publication of the draft plan.
>

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Re: Proposal for a developer support channel

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff


Le 19/11/2017 à 04:33, Brian Wolff a écrit :

> Neither project:support_desk nor project:current_issues is really meant for
> that purpose - support desk is mainly for user and (external) sysadmin
> support. And current_issues is the village pump of mediawiki.org (the
> website not the software)
>
> Honestly, I kind of think that lqt was better than flow for support desk.
> As much as lqt sucked at least search sort of worked.
>
> Although the bigger problem probably is that project:support desk is
> protected so new users arent allowed to ask questions(!)
>
> On the subject of search, i do think that
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/robots.txt is rediculous. At least for
> technical lists we should let google in, and the privacy concern is silly
> as there are mirrors that are indexed.
The foundation is not responsible for, possibly illegal, behaviour of
external parties. It's not silly to disallow copyrighted content on
Commons just because you can find them on popular website which publish
them illegaly.

>
> --
> bawolff
>
> On Saturday, November 18, 2017, Sam Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hear hear to being able to properly search past conversations.
>>
>> I know it's not the fashionably geek thing to say, but I must admit that
>> I always find mailing lists to be incredibly annoying, compared to
>> forums. Not only is searching completely separate from reading, even
>> browsing old topics is another interface again (assuming one hasn't been
>> subscribed forever and kept every old message). Then, when you do manage
>> to find an old message, there's no way to reply to it (short of copying
>> and pasting and losing context).
>>
>> Maybe https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk (and its
>> sibling https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Current_issues ?) is the
>> best place to ask questions about the software, its development, and
>> other things. If so, let's make that fact much more well advertised!
>> (Although, I think Flow is brilliant, when it's for discussing a wiki
>> page — because the topic is already set (effectively by the title of the
>> page its attached to). When it's trying to be a host to multiple
>> unrelated topics, it becomes pretty annoying to use.)
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, at 05:57 AM, Niharika Kohli wrote:
>>> I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
>>> channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
>>> on
>>> the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
>>> of
>>> repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.
>>>
>>> Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
>>> mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
>>> about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki>,
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest>,
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...
>>>
>>> I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
>>> lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum
>>> for
>>> support.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, I have expanded
>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
>>>> seek_developer_support
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
>>>> whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining
> are
>>>> the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
>>>> there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
>>>>
>>>> The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for
> something
>>>> else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers,
> they
>>>> will continue doing whatever they do now.
>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
>>>> For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
>>>> question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
>>>> improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki
> Talk
>>>> pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used
> to
>>>> any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is
> them,
>>>> not us.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brian Wolff wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a
> developer
>>>>>>> support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding
> New
>>>>>>> Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on
>>>> Discourse
>>>>>>> (starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to
>>>> point
>>>>>>> the many existing scattered channels there.
>>>>>> What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
>>>>>> planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?
>>>>> Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I raised a similar point at
>>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Discourse>. I skimmed
>>>>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155678>, looking for some
> answers,
>>>> and
>>>>> I didn't find any.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quim, are you involved in MediaWiki support in places such as the
>>>>> #mediawiki IRC channel or the mediawiki-l mailing list? Are you
> involved
>>>>> in MediaWiki support elsewhere? I'm trying to better understand how
> it
>>>>> would be appropriate for you to seemingly suggest disrupting or
> shutting
>>>>> down these established and functioning venues. If this is not your
>>>>> suggestion, I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve
>>>> matters.
>>>>> MZMcBride
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Quim Gil
>>>> Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
>>>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Niharika
>>> Software Engineer
>>> Community Tech
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> _______________________________________________
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