Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

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Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

guptchar

This is the story of Nichalp[1], an Indian student from Mumbai who became obsessed with editing Wikipedia at a young age. He transformed several articles into featured articles, and became a role model for many editors. He was granted the bureaucrat, oversight and administrator privileges - nobody deserved these rights more than him, not even Jimbo.

A major change in Nichalp's life came when he came to Australia for higher education. Facing a severe financial crunch, Nichalp decided to use the only extraordinary skill he had - editing Wikipedia - for making money. He put up ads on several freelancer recruiting websites, promising to write articles in oexchange for small amounts of money.[2] These were the days when the PR professionals had started realizing the importance of Wikipedia. There were many takers for Nichalp's services. With his "sockpuppet" accounts, Nichalp made a number of contributions (many of which stand deleted now).

Unfortunately for Nichalp, the Wikizealots live in an idealistic world. They don't realize that, in the long run,  editors cannot be expected to devote their time to the project for free.[3] When the Wikihounds came to know about one of Nichalp's paid editing accounts they came after him. Nichalp knew he would be stalked in real life, so he made his main account inactive. Meanwhile, he continued to be active through his other paid editing accounts. A man of foresight, Nichalp started another account in April 2009 to gain back his admin rights.[4]

The Wikihounds have an astonishing ability to track the suspicious accounts - they tracked another one of Nichalp's paid editing accouents.[5] The drama prompted the Arbitration Committee to send him an email enquiry about the paid editing concerns. Nichalp's identity was well-known to those who had exposed his paid editing. The personal information that he had posted earlier on his user page and elsewhere on Wikipedia (and social networking sites) had made it easy for Wikihounds to stalk him in real life. Denial was not an option - Nichalp knew the Wikihounds were capable of producing evidence against him. Pleading not guilty would only gather more eyeballs and possibly lead to media attention - that could sabotage his post-college career. Pleading guilty was not an option either - it would lead to the same fate. Nichalp did what he felt was the best option before him. He neither accepted the charge, nor denied it. What happened next was unfortunate for
 him. Ignoring his 5-year long devotion to the project, the Arbitration Committee took away his bureaucrat, administrator and oversight rights in an unopposed judgment.[6]
Realizing that his paid editing accounts may be under survelliance from the Wikihounds, Nichalp abandoned all of them. All of them, except one - the one he had started in April 2009 with the objective of gaining back his admin rights: Wifione. Nichalp carefully crafted his new wiki identity. He devoted this new account to earning money from India's most notorious self-styled "management guru". To make sure his paid editing does not appear blatantly obvious, Nichalp (or shall we call him Wifione, now?) engaged in a wide range of edits. Wifione rose up in the wiki-hierarchy and became the administrator. He tried not to appear like a paid editor, but the constant pressure from his client forced him to make constant edits to the pages associated with the client. Anyone looking at his top 50 edits would not fail to notice that much of his work in the article namespace was devoted to the pages associated with his client and its competitors.[7] But Wifione knew
 that nobody would oppose him openly: his client is infamous for suing any one who criticizes him or his organization. Nobody wants to be sued for 500 million bucks in a court that lies in the remotest part of the Indian subcontinent - traveling to and staying in Silchar during every court hearing could bankrupt a humble wiki editor. Besides, Wifione had taken care not to repeat the mistakes he had made as Nichalp - he had left no tracks that would lead the Wikihounds to him. Or so he thought.


[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nichalp

[2] wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=1122a1d3e604276b519c9501881856f4&showtopic=24786&st=0&p=177577&#entry177577

[3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Paid_editing

[4] en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&action=view&target=Wifione

[5] en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=295308358#Cash_for_spam

[6] en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&oldid=296240244#Nichalp

[7] wikidashboard.appspot.com/enwiki/wiki/User:Wifione

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Ashwin Baindur
Sad. In his time Nichalp was a legend. his edits along with those of
his compatriots gave a solid foundation to articles on India. I always
think that we Indians crucify a man for what is NOT a heinous crime,
yet we tend to be hypocrites in daily life all the time.

For my sake, I would rather weigh a man's good versus his bad in a
metaphoric balance with sight blindfolded. This is an appropriate time
to quote Shakespeare :

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft' interred with
the bones."

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
------------------------------------------------------



On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:22 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This is the story of Nichalp[1], an Indian student from Mumbai who became obsessed with editing Wikipedia at a young age. He transformed several articles into featured articles, and became a role model for many editors. He was granted the bureaucrat, oversight and administrator privileges - nobody deserved these rights more than him, not even Jimbo.
>
> A major change in Nichalp's life came when he came to Australia for higher education. Facing a severe financial crunch, Nichalp decided to use the only extraordinary skill he had - editing Wikipedia - for making money. He put up ads on several freelancer recruiting websites, promising to write articles in oexchange for small amounts of money.[2] These were the days when the PR professionals had started realizing the importance of Wikipedia. There were many takers for Nichalp's services. With his "sockpuppet" accounts, Nichalp made a number of contributions (many of which stand deleted now).
>
> Unfortunately for Nichalp, the Wikizealots live in an idealistic world. They don't realize that, in the long run,  editors cannot be expected to devote their time to the project for free.[3] When the Wikihounds came to know about one of Nichalp's paid editing accounts they came after him. Nichalp knew he would be stalked in real life, so he made his main account inactive. Meanwhile, he continued to be active through his other paid editing accounts. A man of foresight, Nichalp started another account in April 2009 to gain back his admin rights.[4]
>
> The Wikihounds have an astonishing ability to track the suspicious accounts - they tracked another one of Nichalp's paid editing accouents.[5] The drama prompted the Arbitration Committee to send him an email enquiry about the paid editing concerns. Nichalp's identity was well-known to those who had exposed his paid editing. The personal information that he had posted earlier on his user page and elsewhere on Wikipedia (and social networking sites) had made it easy for Wikihounds to stalk him in real life. Denial was not an option - Nichalp knew the Wikihounds were capable of producing evidence against him. Pleading not guilty would only gather more eyeballs and possibly lead to media attention - that could sabotage his post-college career. Pleading guilty was not an option either - it would lead to the same fate. Nichalp did what he felt was the best option before him. He neither accepted the charge, nor denied it. What happened next was unfortunate for
>  him. Ignoring his 5-year long devotion to the project, the Arbitration Committee took away his bureaucrat, administrator and oversight rights in an unopposed judgment.[6]
> Realizing that his paid editing accounts may be under survelliance from the Wikihounds, Nichalp abandoned all of them. All of them, except one - the one he had started in April 2009 with the objective of gaining back his admin rights: Wifione. Nichalp carefully crafted his new wiki identity. He devoted this new account to earning money from India's most notorious self-styled "management guru". To make sure his paid editing does not appear blatantly obvious, Nichalp (or shall we call him Wifione, now?) engaged in a wide range of edits. Wifione rose up in the wiki-hierarchy and became the administrator. He tried not to appear like a paid editor, but the constant pressure from his client forced him to make constant edits to the pages associated with the client. Anyone looking at his top 50 edits would not fail to notice that much of his work in the article namespace was devoted to the pages associated with his client and its competitors.[7] But Wifione knew
>  that nobody would oppose him openly: his client is infamous for suing any one who criticizes him or his organization. Nobody wants to be sued for 500 million bucks in a court that lies in the remotest part of the Indian subcontinent - traveling to and staying in Silchar during every court hearing could bankrupt a humble wiki editor. Besides, Wifione had taken care not to repeat the mistakes he had made as Nichalp - he had left no tracks that would lead the Wikihounds to him. Or so he thought.
>
>
> [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nichalp
>
> [2] wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=1122a1d3e604276b519c9501881856f4&showtopic=24786&st=0&p=177577&#entry177577
>
> [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Paid_editing
>
> [4] en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&action=view&target=Wifione
>
> [5] en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=295308358#Cash_for_spam
>
> [6] en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&oldid=296240244#Nichalp
>
> [7] wikidashboard.appspot.com/enwiki/wiki/User:Wifione
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Pradeep Mohandas
In reply to this post by guptchar
hi,

I do not understand why this accusation is written as a work of fiction.

Whatever the problems faced by an individual, it does not provide
grounds for crimes like theft. If the person does resort to these
methods, has to face the consequences, if found out. I am sure we
appreciated User:Nichalp's contributions when they were made. However,
when he/she has made mistakes and makes them multiple times, I think
this also warrants serious investigation.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 07/02/2012, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This is the story of Nichalp[1], an Indian student from Mumbai who became
> obsessed with editing Wikipedia at a young age. He transformed several
> articles into featured articles, and became a role model for many editors.
> He was granted the bureaucrat, oversight and administrator privileges -
> nobody deserved these rights more than him, not even Jimbo.
>
> A major change in Nichalp's life came when he came to Australia for higher
> education. Facing a severe financial crunch, Nichalp decided to use the only
> extraordinary skill he had - editing Wikipedia - for making money. He put up
> ads on several freelancer recruiting websites, promising to write articles
> in oexchange for small amounts of money.[2] These were the days when the PR
> professionals had started realizing the importance of Wikipedia. There were
> many takers for Nichalp's services. With his "sockpuppet" accounts, Nichalp
> made a number of contributions (many of which stand deleted now).
>
> Unfortunately for Nichalp, the Wikizealots live in an idealistic world. They
> don't realize that, in the long run,  editors cannot be expected to devote
> their time to the project for free.[3] When the Wikihounds came to know
> about one of Nichalp's paid editing accounts they came after him. Nichalp
> knew he would be stalked in real life, so he made his main account inactive.
> Meanwhile, he continued to be active through his other paid editing
> accounts. A man of foresight, Nichalp started another account in April 2009
> to gain back his admin rights.[4]
>
> The Wikihounds have an astonishing ability to track the suspicious accounts
> - they tracked another one of Nichalp's paid editing accouents.[5] The drama
> prompted the Arbitration Committee to send him an email enquiry about the
> paid editing concerns. Nichalp's identity was well-known to those who had
> exposed his paid editing. The personal information that he had posted
> earlier on his user page and elsewhere on Wikipedia (and social networking
> sites) had made it easy for Wikihounds to stalk him in real life. Denial was
> not an option - Nichalp knew the Wikihounds were capable of producing
> evidence against him. Pleading not guilty would only gather more eyeballs
> and possibly lead to media attention - that could sabotage his post-college
> career. Pleading guilty was not an option either - it would lead to the same
> fate. Nichalp did what he felt was the best option before him. He neither
> accepted the charge, nor denied it. What happened next was unfortunate for
>  him. Ignoring his 5-year long devotion to the project, the Arbitration
> Committee took away his bureaucrat, administrator and oversight rights in an
> unopposed judgment.[6]
> Realizing that his paid editing accounts may be under survelliance from the
> Wikihounds, Nichalp abandoned all of them. All of them, except one - the one
> he had started in April 2009 with the objective of gaining back his admin
> rights: Wifione. Nichalp carefully crafted his new wiki identity. He devoted
> this new account to earning money from India's most notorious self-styled
> "management guru". To make sure his paid editing does not appear blatantly
> obvious, Nichalp (or shall we call him Wifione, now?) engaged in a wide
> range of edits. Wifione rose up in the wiki-hierarchy and became the
> administrator. He tried not to appear like a paid editor, but the constant
> pressure from his client forced him to make constant edits to the pages
> associated with the client. Anyone looking at his top 50 edits would not
> fail to notice that much of his work in the article namespace was devoted to
> the pages associated with his client and its competitors.[7] But Wifione
> knew
>  that nobody would oppose him openly: his client is infamous for suing any
> one who criticizes him or his organization. Nobody wants to be sued for 500
> million bucks in a court that lies in the remotest part of the Indian
> subcontinent - traveling to and staying in Silchar during every court
> hearing could bankrupt a humble wiki editor. Besides, Wifione had taken care
> not to repeat the mistakes he had made as Nichalp - he had left no tracks
> that would lead the Wikihounds to him. Or so he thought.
>
>
> [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nichalp
>
> [2]
> wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=1122a1d3e604276b519c9501881856f4&showtopic=24786&st=0&p=177577&#entry177577
>
> [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Paid_editing
>
> [4]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&action=view&target=Wifione
>
> [5]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=295308358#Cash_for_spam
>
> [6]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&oldid=296240244#Nichalp
>
> [7] wikidashboard.appspot.com/enwiki/wiki/User:Wifione
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>


--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

CherianTinu Abraham
Unbelievable but Shocking !

I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, but a look at the edit history of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests of IIPM and its stakeholders.

He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422

Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800

Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com. 

-TC


On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Pradeep Mohandas <[hidden email]> wrote:
hi,

I do not understand why this accusation is written as a work of fiction.

Whatever the problems faced by an individual, it does not provide
grounds for crimes like theft. If the person does resort to these
methods, has to face the consequences, if found out. I am sure we
appreciated User:Nichalp's contributions when they were made. However,
when he/she has made mistakes and makes them multiple times, I think
this also warrants serious investigation.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 07/02/2012, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is the story of Nichalp[1], an Indian student from Mumbai who became
> obsessed with editing Wikipedia at a young age. He transformed several
> articles into featured articles, and became a role model for many editors.
> He was granted the bureaucrat, oversight and administrator privileges -
> nobody deserved these rights more than him, not even Jimbo.
>
> A major change in Nichalp's life came when he came to Australia for higher
> education. Facing a severe financial crunch, Nichalp decided to use the only
> extraordinary skill he had - editing Wikipedia - for making money. He put up
> ads on several freelancer recruiting websites, promising to write articles
> in oexchange for small amounts of money.[2] These were the days when the PR
> professionals had started realizing the importance of Wikipedia. There were
> many takers for Nichalp's services. With his "sockpuppet" accounts, Nichalp
> made a number of contributions (many of which stand deleted now).
>
> Unfortunately for Nichalp, the Wikizealots live in an idealistic world. They
> don't realize that, in the long run,  editors cannot be expected to devote
> their time to the project for free.[3] When the Wikihounds came to know
> about one of Nichalp's paid editing accounts they came after him. Nichalp
> knew he would be stalked in real life, so he made his main account inactive.
> Meanwhile, he continued to be active through his other paid editing
> accounts. A man of foresight, Nichalp started another account in April 2009
> to gain back his admin rights.[4]
>
> The Wikihounds have an astonishing ability to track the suspicious accounts
> - they tracked another one of Nichalp's paid editing accouents.[5] The drama
> prompted the Arbitration Committee to send him an email enquiry about the
> paid editing concerns. Nichalp's identity was well-known to those who had
> exposed his paid editing. The personal information that he had posted
> earlier on his user page and elsewhere on Wikipedia (and social networking
> sites) had made it easy for Wikihounds to stalk him in real life. Denial was
> not an option - Nichalp knew the Wikihounds were capable of producing
> evidence against him. Pleading not guilty would only gather more eyeballs
> and possibly lead to media attention - that could sabotage his post-college
> career. Pleading guilty was not an option either - it would lead to the same
> fate. Nichalp did what he felt was the best option before him. He neither
> accepted the charge, nor denied it. What happened next was unfortunate for
>  him. Ignoring his 5-year long devotion to the project, the Arbitration
> Committee took away his bureaucrat, administrator and oversight rights in an
> unopposed judgment.[6]
> Realizing that his paid editing accounts may be under survelliance from the
> Wikihounds, Nichalp abandoned all of them. All of them, except one - the one
> he had started in April 2009 with the objective of gaining back his admin
> rights: Wifione. Nichalp carefully crafted his new wiki identity. He devoted
> this new account to earning money from India's most notorious self-styled
> "management guru". To make sure his paid editing does not appear blatantly
> obvious, Nichalp (or shall we call him Wifione, now?) engaged in a wide
> range of edits. Wifione rose up in the wiki-hierarchy and became the
> administrator. He tried not to appear like a paid editor, but the constant
> pressure from his client forced him to make constant edits to the pages
> associated with the client. Anyone looking at his top 50 edits would not
> fail to notice that much of his work in the article namespace was devoted to
> the pages associated with his client and its competitors.[7] But Wifione
> knew
>  that nobody would oppose him openly: his client is infamous for suing any
> one who criticizes him or his organization. Nobody wants to be sued for 500
> million bucks in a court that lies in the remotest part of the Indian
> subcontinent - traveling to and staying in Silchar during every court
> hearing could bankrupt a humble wiki editor. Besides, Wifione had taken care
> not to repeat the mistakes he had made as Nichalp - he had left no tracks
> that would lead the Wikihounds to him. Or so he thought.
>
>
> [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nichalp
>
> [2]
> wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=1122a1d3e604276b519c9501881856f4&showtopic=24786&st=0&p=177577&#entry177577
>
> [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Paid_editing
>
> [4]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&action=view&target=Wifione
>
> [5]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=295308358#Cash_for_spam
>
> [6]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&oldid=296240244#Nichalp
>
> [7] wikidashboard.appspot.com/enwiki/wiki/User:Wifione
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>


--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l


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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Vickram Crishna-2
What is rather odd is that the 'story' is written as a defense of Nichalp/Wifione/Wikifone. Possibly some people may have known him personally and therefore the tone of the article. 

I find the statement "They don't realize that, in the long run,  editors cannot be expected to devote their time to the project for free.[3] ". Realise? What does that mean? Nobody is forcing anyone to devote any time at all to Wikipedia. What Wikipedia represents is an opportunity (among other, better, things) for people to commit fraudulent acts, but that may be said of almost anything material or even spiritual. If anyone doesn't like it, they are free to relax and do something else that they find more spiritually or materially relevant. And it is not 'they' who don't realise (or do, we the silly naive people), it is 'us'. 

As for the client, the less said the better. It remains to be seen why the government regulators fail year after year to do anything about this sad situation. So far, the scams do not amount to hundreds of thousands of crores, which at least attracts CAG attention, although the impact on India's societal health may end up being far deeper. Have they ever sued the government or threatened to sue? Have they sued individual government officers? - that is certainly pretty hard to do, much much harder than to sue individual volunteer Wikimedians.

People following education issues will have noticed that minority education institutions have soundly protested the provisions of the new Right To Education Act. I feel such actions are partly a response the the pressure that will now be put on privately funded teaching mills. It is a very complex situation, but the nexus between politicians and degree shops/moneymaking rackets is a doleful commentary on India's evolving political landscape.   

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 1:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unbelievable but Shocking !

I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, but a look at the edit history of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests of IIPM and its stakeholders.

He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422

Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800

Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com. 

-TC



On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Pradeep Mohandas <[hidden email]> wrote:
hi,

I do not understand why this accusation is written as a work of fiction.

Whatever the problems faced by an individual, it does not provide
grounds for crimes like theft. If the person does resort to these
methods, has to face the consequences, if found out. I am sure we
appreciated User:Nichalp's contributions when they were made. However,
when he/she has made mistakes and makes them multiple times, I think
this also warrants serious investigation.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 07/02/2012, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is the story of Nichalp[1], an Indian student from Mumbai who became
> obsessed with editing Wikipedia at a young age. He transformed several
> articles into featured articles, and became a role model for many editors.
> He was granted the bureaucrat, oversight and administrator privileges -
> nobody deserved these rights more than him, not even Jimbo.
>
> A major change in Nichalp's life came when he came to Australia for higher
> education. Facing a severe financial crunch, Nichalp decided to use the only
> extraordinary skill he had - editing Wikipedia - for making money. He put up
> ads on several freelancer recruiting websites, promising to write articles
> in oexchange for small amounts of money.[2] These were the days when the PR
> professionals had started realizing the importance of Wikipedia. There were
> many takers for Nichalp's services. With his "sockpuppet" accounts, Nichalp
> made a number of contributions (many of which stand deleted now).
>
> Unfortunately for Nichalp, the Wikizealots live in an idealistic world. They
> don't realize that, in the long run,  editors cannot be expected to devote
> their time to the project for free.[3] When the Wikihounds came to know
> about one of Nichalp's paid editing accounts they came after him. Nichalp
> knew he would be stalked in real life, so he made his main account inactive.
> Meanwhile, he continued to be active through his other paid editing
> accounts. A man of foresight, Nichalp started another account in April 2009
> to gain back his admin rights.[4]
>
> The Wikihounds have an astonishing ability to track the suspicious accounts
> - they tracked another one of Nichalp's paid editing accouents.[5] The drama
> prompted the Arbitration Committee to send him an email enquiry about the
> paid editing concerns. Nichalp's identity was well-known to those who had
> exposed his paid editing. The personal information that he had posted
> earlier on his user page and elsewhere on Wikipedia (and social networking
> sites) had made it easy for Wikihounds to stalk him in real life. Denial was
> not an option - Nichalp knew the Wikihounds were capable of producing
> evidence against him. Pleading not guilty would only gather more eyeballs
> and possibly lead to media attention - that could sabotage his post-college
> career. Pleading guilty was not an option either - it would lead to the same
> fate. Nichalp did what he felt was the best option before him. He neither
> accepted the charge, nor denied it. What happened next was unfortunate for
>  him. Ignoring his 5-year long devotion to the project, the Arbitration
> Committee took away his bureaucrat, administrator and oversight rights in an
> unopposed judgment.[6]
> Realizing that his paid editing accounts may be under survelliance from the
> Wikihounds, Nichalp abandoned all of them. All of them, except one - the one
> he had started in April 2009 with the objective of gaining back his admin
> rights: Wifione. Nichalp carefully crafted his new wiki identity. He devoted
> this new account to earning money from India's most notorious self-styled
> "management guru". To make sure his paid editing does not appear blatantly
> obvious, Nichalp (or shall we call him Wifione, now?) engaged in a wide
> range of edits. Wifione rose up in the wiki-hierarchy and became the
> administrator. He tried not to appear like a paid editor, but the constant
> pressure from his client forced him to make constant edits to the pages
> associated with the client. Anyone looking at his top 50 edits would not
> fail to notice that much of his work in the article namespace was devoted to
> the pages associated with his client and its competitors.[7] But Wifione
> knew
>  that nobody would oppose him openly: his client is infamous for suing any
> one who criticizes him or his organization. Nobody wants to be sued for 500
> million bucks in a court that lies in the remotest part of the Indian
> subcontinent - traveling to and staying in Silchar during every court
> hearing could bankrupt a humble wiki editor. Besides, Wifione had taken care
> not to repeat the mistakes he had made as Nichalp - he had left no tracks
> that would lead the Wikihounds to him. Or so he thought.
>
>
> [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nichalp
>
> [2]
> wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=1122a1d3e604276b519c9501881856f4&showtopic=24786&st=0&p=177577&#entry177577
>
> [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Paid_editing
>
> [4]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&action=view&target=Wifione
>
> [5]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=295308358#Cash_for_spam
>
> [6]
> en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&oldid=296240244#Nichalp
>
> [7] wikidashboard.appspot.com/enwiki/wiki/User:Wifione
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>


--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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--
Vickram
Fool On The Hill

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

John Mark Vandenberg
In reply to this post by CherianTinu Abraham
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:08 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Unbelievable but Shocking !
>
> I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, ...

So far the evidence is not good.

> but a look at the edit history
> of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests
> of IIPM and its stakeholders.
>
> He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422

It looks like he re-arranged the policy a lot in that edit, but there
arnt many changes.

"trial" became "trial/litigation in any country"

and he added "independent" a few times.

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable
secondary source for that interpretation."

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable,
independent secondary sources for that interpretation."

"'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable
secondary sources that do so."

'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable,
independent secondary sources that do so."

"Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources.
Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have
been published by a reliable secondary source."

"Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary
sources. Articles ''may'' make an analytic or evaluative claim ''only
if'' that has been published by ''multiple'' independent, reliable
secondary sources."

> Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles
> as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800
>
> Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com.

I've alerted Arbcom as a courtesy, however a community assessment is
needed in order to determine if there is any credible link to nichalp
or any reason for a desysop.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

wheredevelsdare
Wifione commented on  this discussion. He redacted some comments there, a few hours later, with this edit on WP:No Original Research - he changed "trial" to "trial/litigation in any country" and "published by any involved party" to "published/authored by any involved party" and also changed Book Reviews from being considered a secondary source to being considered a primary source. Its interesting to note that the changes he made in policy relate somewhat to the discussion taking place on an article talk page where he was involved.

Also, the following statements:

"Please provide valid sources to support this statement. MSN is not a reliable source." - Wifione 06:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (this discussion)

The MSN article is actually an article by IANS (an independent News Agency), carried by MSN and others like Yahoo News.

A comment about the same Yahoo News article: ".. Yahoo link simply shows the opinion of Mr. Devi Singh from IIM Lucknow. That is a self-published statement which should not be used to make a definitive statement." - Wifione 19:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC) (Same discussion)

Im not commenting on the contents of the original email, the above definitely looks a bit out of order to me.

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:37:01 +1100

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:08 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Unbelievable but Shocking !
> >
> > I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, ...
>
> So far the evidence is not good.
>
> > but a look at the edit history
> > of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests
> > of IIPM and its stakeholders.
> >
> > He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422
>
> It looks like he re-arranged the policy a lot in that edit, but there
> arnt many changes.
>
> "trial" became "trial/litigation in any country"
>
> and he added "independent" a few times.
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable
> secondary source for that interpretation."
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable,
> independent secondary sources for that interpretation."
>
> "'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable
> secondary sources that do so."
>
> '''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable,
> independent secondary sources that do so."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources.
> Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have
> been published by a reliable secondary source."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary
> sources. Articles ''may'' make an analytic or evaluative claim ''only
> if'' that has been published by ''multiple'' independent, reliable
> secondary sources."
>
> > Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles
> > as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800
> >
> > Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com.
>
> I've alerted Arbcom as a courtesy, however a community assessment is
> needed in order to determine if there is any credible link to nichalp
> or any reason for a desysop.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Srikanth Ramakrishnan-2
IT is sad, but true about what happened to Nicholas. While the edits by WifiOne are clearly CoI based, for now I choose to disconnect the user from Nichalp in my POV.
Nicholas was the ideal Role model for us back in 2007-8-9. He churned out articles of good quality like no one.
It was indeed sad that he had to resort to what he did.
It proves that a man is remembered more for what evil deeds he does and not what good he does.
Few people would know that Nichalp was the original uploader of Indian maps on Wikipedia/Wikimedia Commons.

As for the IIPM related edits, yes, not just WifiOne, but another editor, who replied to the Talk page of the 'Management Guru', seem to be doing what it takes from keeping others from editing that article.
Said user believes that I, or User:Utcursh shouldn't edit the article AS:
i] I tweeted negatively about IIPM.
ii] Utcursh is from another Business School an thus has a CoI.
This resulted in MikeLynch taking a neutral stand on the talk page which resulted in the said user voting against in Mike's RfA, [and again, blaming it ON me!]

I think we need a special talk about this IIPM matter on the English mailing list.


On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 1:20 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wifione commented on  this discussion. He redacted some comments there, a few hours later, with this edit on WP:No Original Research - he changed "trial" to "trial/litigation in any country" and "published by any involved party" to "published/authored by any involved party" and also changed Book Reviews from being considered a secondary source to being considered a primary source. Its interesting to note that the changes he made in policy relate somewhat to the discussion taking place on an article talk page where he was involved.

Also, the following statements:

"Please provide valid sources to support this statement. MSN is not a reliable source." - Wifione 06:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (this discussion)

The MSN article is actually an article by IANS (an independent News Agency), carried by MSN and others like Yahoo News.

A comment about the same Yahoo News article: ".. Yahoo link simply shows the opinion of Mr. Devi Singh from IIM Lucknow. That is a self-published statement which should not be used to make a definitive statement." - Wifione 19:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC) (Same discussion)

Im not commenting on the contents of the original email, the above definitely looks a bit out of order to me.

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:37:01 +1100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:08 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Unbelievable but Shocking !
> >
> > I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, ...
>
> So far the evidence is not good.
>
> > but a look at the edit history
> > of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests
> > of IIPM and its stakeholders.
> >
> > He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422
>
> It looks like he re-arranged the policy a lot in that edit, but there
> arnt many changes.
>
> "trial" became "trial/litigation in any country"
>
> and he added "independent" a few times.
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable
> secondary source for that interpretation."
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable,
> independent secondary sources for that interpretation."
>
> "'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable
> secondary sources that do so."
>
> '''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable,
> independent secondary sources that do so."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources.
> Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have
> been published by a reliable secondary source."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary
> sources. Articles ''may'' make an analytic or evaluative claim ''only
> if'' that has been published by ''multiple'' independent, reliable
> secondary sources."
>
> > Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles
> > as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800
> >
> > Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com.
>
> I've alerted Arbcom as a courtesy, however a community assessment is
> needed in order to determine if there is any credible link to nichalp
> or any reason for a desysop.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l




--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG


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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Konarak Ratnakar
What if he's monitoring all India related lists and the related discussions?


Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 02:51:33 -0800
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

IT is sad, but true about what happened to Nicholas. While the edits by WifiOne are clearly CoI based, for now I choose to disconnect the user from Nichalp in my POV.
Nicholas was the ideal Role model for us back in 2007-8-9. He churned out articles of good quality like no one.
It was indeed sad that he had to resort to what he did.
It proves that a man is remembered more for what evil deeds he does and not what good he does.
Few people would know that Nichalp was the original uploader of Indian maps on Wikipedia/Wikimedia Commons.

As for the IIPM related edits, yes, not just WifiOne, but another editor, who replied to the Talk page of the 'Management Guru', seem to be doing what it takes from keeping others from editing that article.
Said user believes that I, or User:Utcursh shouldn't edit the article AS:
i] I tweeted negatively about IIPM.
ii] Utcursh is from another Business School an thus has a CoI.
This resulted in MikeLynch taking a neutral stand on the talk page which resulted in the said user voting against in Mike's RfA, [and again, blaming it ON me!]

I think we need a special talk about this IIPM matter on the English mailing list.


On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 1:20 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wifione commented on  this discussion. He redacted some comments there, a few hours later, with this edit on WP:No Original Research - he changed "trial" to "trial/litigation in any country" and "published by any involved party" to "published/authored by any involved party" and also changed Book Reviews from being considered a secondary source to being considered a primary source. Its interesting to note that the changes he made in policy relate somewhat to the discussion taking place on an article talk page where he was involved.

Also, the following statements:

"Please provide valid sources to support this statement. MSN is not a reliable source." - Wifione 06:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (this discussion)

The MSN article is actually an article by IANS (an independent News Agency), carried by MSN and others like Yahoo News.

A comment about the same Yahoo News article: ".. Yahoo link simply shows the opinion of Mr. Devi Singh from IIM Lucknow. That is a self-published statement which should not be used to make a definitive statement." - Wifione 19:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC) (Same discussion)

Im not commenting on the contents of the original email, the above definitely looks a bit out of order to me.

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:37:01 +1100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:08 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Unbelievable but Shocking !
> >
> > I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, ...
>
> So far the evidence is not good.
>
> > but a look at the edit history
> > of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests
> > of IIPM and its stakeholders.
> >
> > He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422
>
> It looks like he re-arranged the policy a lot in that edit, but there
> arnt many changes.
>
> "trial" became "trial/litigation in any country"
>
> and he added "independent" a few times.
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable
> secondary source for that interpretation."
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable,
> independent secondary sources for that interpretation."
>
> "'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable
> secondary sources that do so."
>
> '''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable,
> independent secondary sources that do so."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources.
> Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have
> been published by a reliable secondary source."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary
> sources. Articles ''may'' make an analytic or evaluative claim ''only
> if'' that has been published by ''multiple'' independent, reliable
> secondary sources."
>
> > Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles
> > as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800
> >
> > Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com.
>
> I've alerted Arbcom as a courtesy, however a community assessment is
> needed in order to determine if there is any credible link to nichalp
> or any reason for a desysop.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l




--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG


_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list [hidden email] To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Srikanth Ramakrishnan-2
He's free to monitor them.
What is important is how the community develops a consensus about the said matter.


On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Konarak Ratnakar <[hidden email]> wrote:
What if he's monitoring all India related lists and the related discussions?


Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 02:51:33 -0800
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

IT is sad, but true about what happened to Nicholas. While the edits by WifiOne are clearly CoI based, for now I choose to disconnect the user from Nichalp in my POV.
Nicholas was the ideal Role model for us back in 2007-8-9. He churned out articles of good quality like no one.
It was indeed sad that he had to resort to what he did.
It proves that a man is remembered more for what evil deeds he does and not what good he does.
Few people would know that Nichalp was the original uploader of Indian maps on Wikipedia/Wikimedia Commons.

As for the IIPM related edits, yes, not just WifiOne, but another editor, who replied to the Talk page of the 'Management Guru', seem to be doing what it takes from keeping others from editing that article.
Said user believes that I, or User:Utcursh shouldn't edit the article AS:
i] I tweeted negatively about IIPM.
ii] Utcursh is from another Business School an thus has a CoI.
This resulted in MikeLynch taking a neutral stand on the talk page which resulted in the said user voting against in Mike's RfA, [and again, blaming it ON me!]

I think we need a special talk about this IIPM matter on the English mailing list.


On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 1:20 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wifione commented on  this discussion. He redacted some comments there, a few hours later, with this edit on WP:No Original Research - he changed "trial" to "trial/litigation in any country" and "published by any involved party" to "published/authored by any involved party" and also changed Book Reviews from being considered a secondary source to being considered a primary source. Its interesting to note that the changes he made in policy relate somewhat to the discussion taking place on an article talk page where he was involved.

Also, the following statements:

"Please provide valid sources to support this statement. MSN is not a reliable source." - Wifione 06:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (this discussion)

The MSN article is actually an article by IANS (an independent News Agency), carried by MSN and others like Yahoo News.

A comment about the same Yahoo News article: ".. Yahoo link simply shows the opinion of Mr. Devi Singh from IIM Lucknow. That is a self-published statement which should not be used to make a definitive statement." - Wifione 19:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC) (Same discussion)

Im not commenting on the contents of the original email, the above definitely looks a bit out of order to me.

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:37:01 +1100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:08 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Unbelievable but Shocking !
> >
> > I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, ...
>
> So far the evidence is not good.
>
> > but a look at the edit history
> > of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the interests
> > of IIPM and its stakeholders.
> >
> > He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422
>
> It looks like he re-arranged the policy a lot in that edit, but there
> arnt many changes.
>
> "trial" became "trial/litigation in any country"
>
> and he added "independent" a few times.
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable
> secondary source for that interpretation."
>
> "Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable,
> independent secondary sources for that interpretation."
>
> "'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable
> secondary sources that do so."
>
> '''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
> found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable,
> independent secondary sources that do so."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources.
> Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have
> been published by a reliable secondary source."
>
> "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary
> sources. Articles ''may'' make an analytic or evaluative claim ''only
> if'' that has been published by ''multiple'' independent, reliable
> secondary sources."
>
> > Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM) articles
> > as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800
> >
> > Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb Com.
>
> I've alerted Arbcom as a courtesy, however a community assessment is
> needed in order to determine if there is any credible link to nichalp
> or any reason for a desysop.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l




--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG


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--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG


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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

praveenp
In reply to this post by Srikanth Ramakrishnan-2
I feel no sympathy for Nichalp or any such users. Per this discussion,
he chose his path which is clearly against the aims of wikipedia.
Somebody stated here that Nichalp himself appeared in this thread, so
i assume, he has no intention to stop what he is doing. Why we should
sympathize to hin?

Btw paid edits are bad and anything paid editor devoted is only money
. What i feel funny is that the secret spy (gupt char) guy, who
started this thread  written it as a little tended to Nichalp, but
what he really wanted is tearing the mask, has taken almost similar
alleged modus operandi of Nichalp to publish his thought. :-). No
allegation intended in this entire  last paragraph, i've not seen him
much ;-)
if i'm wrong, i already regretted. :-)

On 08/02/2012, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> IT is sad, but true about what happened to Nicholas. While the edits by
> WifiOne are clearly CoI based, for now I choose to disconnect the user from
> Nichalp in my POV.
> Nicholas was the ideal Role model for us back in 2007-8-9. He churned out
> articles of good quality like no one.
> It was indeed sad that he had to resort to what he did.
> It proves that a man is remembered more for what evil deeds he does and not
> what good he does.
> Few people would know that Nichalp was the original uploader of Indian maps
> on Wikipedia/Wikimedia Commons.
>
> As for the IIPM related edits, yes, not just WifiOne, but another editor,
> who replied to the Talk page of the 'Management Guru', seem to be doing
> what it takes from keeping others from editing that article.
> Said user believes that I, or User:Utcursh shouldn't edit the article AS:
> i] I tweeted negatively about IIPM.
> ii] Utcursh is from another Business School an thus has a CoI.
> This resulted in MikeLynch taking a neutral stand on the talk page which
> resulted in the said user voting against in Mike's RfA, [and again, blaming
> it ON me!]
>
> I think we need a special talk about this IIPM matter on the English
> mailing list.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 1:20 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>  Wifione commented on  this
>> discussion<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arindam_Chaudhuri#New_section>.
>> He redacted some comments there, a few hours later, with this
>> edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422>on
>> WP:No Original Research - he changed "trial" to "trial/litigation
>> in any country" and "published by any involved party" to "published
>> /authored by any involved party" and also changed Book Reviews from being
>> considered a secondary source to being considered a primary source. Its
>> interesting to note that the changes he made in policy relate somewhat to
>> the discussion taking place on an article talk page where he was involved.
>>
>> Also, the following statements:
>>
>> "Please provide valid sources to support this statement. MSN is not a
>> reliable source." - Wifione 06:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (this
>> discussion<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indian_Institute_of_Management_Lucknow#Reliable_sources>
>> )
>>
>> The MSN
>> article<http://education.in.msn.com/features/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5071129&page=2>is
>> actually an article by IANS (an independent News Agency), carried by MSN
>> and others like Yahoo
>> News<http://my.news.yahoo.com/fight-corruption-iim-lucknow-graduating-students-told-20110322-101343-289.html>.
>>
>>
>> A comment about the same Yahoo News article: ".. Yahoo link simply shows
>> the opinion of Mr. Devi Singh from IIM Lucknow. That is a self-published
>> statement which should not be used to make a definitive statement." -
>> Wifione 19:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC) (Same discussion)
>>
>> Im not commenting on the contents of the original email, the above
>> definitely looks a bit out of order to me.
>>
>> > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:37:01 +1100
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > To: [hidden email]
>> > CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> > Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione
>>
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:08 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > Unbelievable but Shocking !
>> > >
>> > > I am not sure if Wikifone is same as Nichalp, ...
>> >
>> > So far the evidence is not good.
>> >
>> > > but a look at the edit history
>> > > of Wikifone, the editor has some serious interest to protect the
>> interests
>> > > of IIPM and its stakeholders.
>> > >
>> > > He seems to even change policy pages to suit his cause
>> > >
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research&action=historysubmit&diff=475525747&oldid=475410422
>> >
>> > It looks like he re-arranged the policy a lot in that edit, but there
>> > arnt many changes.
>> >
>> > "trial" became "trial/litigation in any country"
>> >
>> > and he added "independent" a few times.
>> >
>> > "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable
>> > secondary source for that interpretation."
>> >
>> > "Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable,
>> > independent secondary sources for that interpretation."
>> >
>> > "'''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
>> > found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable
>> > secondary sources that do so."
>> >
>> > '''Do not''' analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material
>> > found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable,
>> > independent secondary sources that do so."
>> >
>> > "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources.
>> > Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have
>> > been published by a reliable secondary source."
>> >
>> > "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary
>> > sources. Articles ''may'' make an analytic or evaluative claim ''only
>> > if'' that has been published by ''multiple'' independent, reliable
>> > secondary sources."
>> >
>> > > Wifione seems to be working on IIM and Amity ( Competitors to IIPM)
>> articles
>> > > as well, possibly trying to show them in bad light.
>> > >
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amity_University&action=historysubmit&diff=475405890&oldid=474606800
>> > >
>> > > Nevertheless , this has be investigated  or possibly reported to Arb
>> Com.
>> >
>> > I've alerted Arbcom as a courtesy, however a community assessment is
>> > needed in order to determine if there is any credible link to nichalp
>> > or any reason for a desysop.
>> >
>> > --
>> > John Vandenberg
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
> Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
> Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

With love
Praveen <http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Praveenp>:talk<http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Praveenp>

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Ashwin Baindur
I would only like to remind people that showing some sympathy is not a
bad thing .

Coming from armed forces where there are no second places - to me the
greatest sin is lack of competence, whether in language, wiki-writing,
techniques or otherwise. I was told by someone that Wikipeding was a
voluntary activity so high standards should not be expected in
competence. If that is true, then we should not suddenly start
witch-hunting on the basis of principle when we are ourselves so
casual about other qualities in other ways!

Without mentioning specific incidents, I have come across this
tendency to crucify others in India community - which is deplorable.

Before any one becomes high & mighty on morals here, one should look
closely at what are harmful crimes against humanity (murder, rape etc)
and what are social misdemeanours (wiki-crimes). So many of us condone
other faults all the time in Indian society; it is hypocrisy to be
principled in issues concerning others, when we ourselves don't apply
the highest standards to ourselves.

In my opinion. it is NOT the business of this community to go
searching for culprits unless the culprit has affected us in some
manner, which does not appear to be the case.

As Jesus Christ said, let he who is without blame cast the first stone.

There are far better and much more important things to do here.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 9:23 PM, praveenp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I feel no sympathy for Nichalp or any such users....

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Pradeep Mohandas
hi,

I think we mean this criticism only in the Wikipedia reference. It's
not as if we're going to catch and hand over this guy to the Police.

Such paid editing lowers the morale of other editors. Efforts must be
made to stop such work that is detrimental to other Wikipedia
volunteers.

Then again, we're putting the cart in front of the horse. It's not
been proved Nichalp and wifione are one and the same. It is hence best
to discuss only about paid editing and how this practise can be
identified and stopped.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 09/02/2012, Ashwin Baindur <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would only like to remind people that showing some sympathy is not a
> bad thing .
>
> Coming from armed forces where there are no second places - to me the
> greatest sin is lack of competence, whether in language, wiki-writing,
> techniques or otherwise. I was told by someone that Wikipeding was a
> voluntary activity so high standards should not be expected in
> competence. If that is true, then we should not suddenly start
> witch-hunting on the basis of principle when we are ourselves so
> casual about other qualities in other ways!
>
> Without mentioning specific incidents, I have come across this
> tendency to crucify others in India community - which is deplorable.
>
> Before any one becomes high & mighty on morals here, one should look
> closely at what are harmful crimes against humanity (murder, rape etc)
> and what are social misdemeanours (wiki-crimes). So many of us condone
> other faults all the time in Indian society; it is hypocrisy to be
> principled in issues concerning others, when we ourselves don't apply
> the highest standards to ourselves.
>
> In my opinion. it is NOT the business of this community to go
> searching for culprits unless the culprit has affected us in some
> manner, which does not appear to be the case.
>
> As Jesus Christ said, let he who is without blame cast the first stone.
>
> There are far better and much more important things to do here.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 9:23 PM, praveenp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I feel no sympathy for Nichalp or any such users....
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>


--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Vickram Crishna-2
In reply to this post by Ashwin Baindur


On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Ashwin Baindur <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was told by someone that Wikipeding was a
voluntary activity so high standards should not be expected in
competence. If that is true, then we should not suddenly start
witch-hunting on the basis of principle when we are ourselves so
casual about other qualities in other ways!

Witch-hunting, under any circumstances, is a disgraceful business. It is nothing but hypocrisy by another name. 

However, I find it hard to agree with equating volunteering to low standards. Standards is something that means the most when it applies to oneself. That does not mean that everyone must agree with what one considers a standard, but it does not hurt to look around for an accepted standard or standards for any activity, and seeking to synergise or synthesize them when they are in dissonance. . 

The problem with paid pages is that people or entities making such payments tend to impose lower standards upon others, just as happens in many other spheres of human activity. It does not happen every time, but it does happen all too often. In fact, where pages are concerned, it is far too likely to be the very purpose of the payment. And compromised pages is compromising knowledge, because the credibility of Wikipedia is (afaik) on the way up. We may feel sympathy for the person who was forced into doing this, but that does not mean we should sit on our hands and let it carry on. 

However, as has already been pointed out, the client in this case is an extremely dangerous entity, and moreso for volunteer individuals in India. Clearly we need to call for help. 

I don't know how best to do that, but it seems to me that offlist channels are one way to go.
 
--
Vickram
Fool On The Hill

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

CherianTinu Abraham
In reply to this post by Pradeep Mohandas
I think, some are getting it all wrong.  It is not about sympathies to Nichalp or who so ever.

The problem is not conflict of interest editing... It is not even a philosophical debate of Paid editing Vs Volunteer editing... The problem is getting paid to white wash "negative materials" in favor of the clients, which eventually render Wikipedia articles biased and information suppressed... And if those people can get favors from the level of Admins, it is definitely wrong. What is more shocking is that if that if an account created possibly with a single purpose ( of protecting the interests of a business group) can manage to climb up the ladder of admin-ship of a "stronger" Wikipedia like en.wiki , it is definitely alarming !

At this point of time, I am giving the benefit of doubt of whether Wifione is actually Nichalp or not. But definitely an account like Wifione aka "Wireless Fidelity Class One" must be investigated.

It is not the first time, IIPM related folks tried to infiltrate Wikipedia to get the articles in their favour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Mrinal_Pandey 
I am sure that scores of such sock puppet users are still having a free run with related articles. 
Previous sockpuppet investigations against Wifione in 2009 returned a "possible" result.

Imagine having an admin also with ACC ( Account Creation) toolserver authorization in the favour.

What is more shocking is that one  user who slapped the notice on Wifione got this message on his talk page
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Makrandjoshi&oldid=104617335
(which closely translates to DONT YOU GET SCARED? THESE IIPM GUYS WILL KILL YOU)

Now tell me, can volunteers like you and me fearlessly edit articles related to IIPM to remove its bias, in such situations of death threats? Least I want to go to Silichar after being sued.

-TC


On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <[hidden email]> wrote:
hi,

I think we mean this criticism only in the Wikipedia reference. It's
not as if we're going to catch and hand over this guy to the Police.

Such paid editing lowers the morale of other editors. Efforts must be
made to stop such work that is detrimental to other Wikipedia
volunteers.

Then again, we're putting the cart in front of the horse. It's not
been proved Nichalp and wifione are one and the same. It is hence best
to discuss only about paid editing and how this practise can be
identified and stopped.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 09/02/2012, Ashwin Baindur <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would only like to remind people that showing some sympathy is not a
> bad thing .
>
> Coming from armed forces where there are no second places - to me the
> greatest sin is lack of competence, whether in language, wiki-writing,
> techniques or otherwise. I was told by someone that Wikipeding was a
> voluntary activity so high standards should not be expected in
> competence. If that is true, then we should not suddenly start
> witch-hunting on the basis of principle when we are ourselves so
> casual about other qualities in other ways!
>
> Without mentioning specific incidents, I have come across this
> tendency to crucify others in India community - which is deplorable.
>
> Before any one becomes high & mighty on morals here, one should look
> closely at what are harmful crimes against humanity (murder, rape etc)
> and what are social misdemeanours (wiki-crimes). So many of us condone
> other faults all the time in Indian society; it is hypocrisy to be
> principled in issues concerning others, when we ourselves don't apply
> the highest standards to ourselves.
>
> In my opinion. it is NOT the business of this community to go
> searching for culprits unless the culprit has affected us in some
> manner, which does not appear to be the case.
>
> As Jesus Christ said, let he who is without blame cast the first stone.
>
> There are far better and much more important things to do here.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 9:23 PM, praveenp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I feel no sympathy for Nichalp or any such users....
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>


--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Srikanth Ramakrishnan-2
On the subject of neutrality.
What if the Washinton Post, or New York Times carried out an article showing IIPM/AC in negative light?
Will they also be categorised as opinionated?
I believe the matter is a semi-domesticated issue. Only Indian companies are getting sued.


On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:23 AM, CherianTinu Abraham <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think, some are getting it all wrong.  It is not about sympathies to Nichalp or who so ever.

The problem is not conflict of interest editing... It is not even a philosophical debate of Paid editing Vs Volunteer editing... The problem is getting paid to white wash "negative materials" in favor of the clients, which eventually render Wikipedia articles biased and information suppressed... And if those people can get favors from the level of Admins, it is definitely wrong. What is more shocking is that if that if an account created possibly with a single purpose ( of protecting the interests of a business group) can manage to climb up the ladder of admin-ship of a "stronger" Wikipedia like en.wiki , it is definitely alarming !

At this point of time, I am giving the benefit of doubt of whether Wifione is actually Nichalp or not. But definitely an account like Wifione aka "Wireless Fidelity Class One" must be investigated.

It is not the first time, IIPM related folks tried to infiltrate Wikipedia to get the articles in their favour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Mrinal_Pandey 
I am sure that scores of such sock puppet users are still having a free run with related articles. 
Previous sockpuppet investigations against Wifione in 2009 returned a "possible" result.

Imagine having an admin also with ACC ( Account Creation) toolserver authorization in the favour.

What is more shocking is that one  user who slapped the notice on Wifione got this message on his talk page
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Makrandjoshi&oldid=104617335
(which closely translates to DONT YOU GET SCARED? THESE IIPM GUYS WILL KILL YOU)

Now tell me, can volunteers like you and me fearlessly edit articles related to IIPM to remove its bias, in such situations of death threats? Least I want to go to Silichar after being sued.

-TC



On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <[hidden email]> wrote:
hi,

I think we mean this criticism only in the Wikipedia reference. It's
not as if we're going to catch and hand over this guy to the Police.

Such paid editing lowers the morale of other editors. Efforts must be
made to stop such work that is detrimental to other Wikipedia
volunteers.

Then again, we're putting the cart in front of the horse. It's not
been proved Nichalp and wifione are one and the same. It is hence best
to discuss only about paid editing and how this practise can be
identified and stopped.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 09/02/2012, Ashwin Baindur <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would only like to remind people that showing some sympathy is not a
> bad thing .
>
> Coming from armed forces where there are no second places - to me the
> greatest sin is lack of competence, whether in language, wiki-writing,
> techniques or otherwise. I was told by someone that Wikipeding was a
> voluntary activity so high standards should not be expected in
> competence. If that is true, then we should not suddenly start
> witch-hunting on the basis of principle when we are ourselves so
> casual about other qualities in other ways!
>
> Without mentioning specific incidents, I have come across this
> tendency to crucify others in India community - which is deplorable.
>
> Before any one becomes high & mighty on morals here, one should look
> closely at what are harmful crimes against humanity (murder, rape etc)
> and what are social misdemeanours (wiki-crimes). So many of us condone
> other faults all the time in Indian society; it is hypocrisy to be
> principled in issues concerning others, when we ourselves don't apply
> the highest standards to ourselves.
>
> In my opinion. it is NOT the business of this community to go
> searching for culprits unless the culprit has affected us in some
> manner, which does not appear to be the case.
>
> As Jesus Christ said, let he who is without blame cast the first stone.
>
> There are far better and much more important things to do here.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 9:23 PM, praveenp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I feel no sympathy for Nichalp or any such users....
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>


--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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--
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG


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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Ravishankar-3
In reply to this post by CherianTinu Abraham

The problem is not conflict of interest editing... It is not even a philosophical debate of Paid editing Vs Volunteer editing... The problem is getting paid to white wash "negative materials" in favor of the clients, which eventually render Wikipedia articles biased and information suppressed... And if those people can get favors from the level of Admins, it is definitely wrong. What is more shocking is that if that if an account created possibly with a single purpose ( of protecting the interests of a business group) can manage to climb up the ladder of admin-ship of a "stronger" Wikipedia like en.wiki , it is definitely alarming !

+1. Continuing this discussion generally on these terms will be good. Otherwise, this will be an en wiki community issue and I don't find it relevant to be on Indian mailing list.

Ravi

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Ashwin Baindur
I think the problem of sock-puppets on Indic languages has yet to come
to prominence. There may be many more malpractices there as compared
to en-WP. Education of all concerned is vital at Wikimedia-l. We cant
be puritans over the scope of the list, excluding something just
because it pertains to an occurrence on en-WP.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
------------------------------------------------------



On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Ravishankar <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> The problem is not conflict of interest editing... It is not even a
>> philosophical debate of Paid editing Vs Volunteer editing... The problem is
>> getting paid to white wash "negative materials" in favor of the clients,
>> which eventually render Wikipedia articles biased and information
>> suppressed... And if those people can get favors from the level of Admins,
>> it is definitely wrong. What is more shocking is that if that if an account
>> created possibly with a single purpose ( of protecting the interests of a
>> business group) can manage to climb up the ladder of admin-ship of a
>> "stronger" Wikipedia like en.wiki , it is definitely alarming !
>
>
> +1. Continuing this discussion generally on these terms will be good.
> Otherwise, this will be an en wiki community issue and I don't find it
> relevant to be on Indian mailing list.
>
> Ravi
>
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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Srikanth Lakshmanan


On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 17:30, Ashwin Baindur <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the problem of sock-puppets on Indic languages has yet to come
to prominence.

Its only about time, Tamil Wikipedia has WP:SOCK[1] as a policy and was cited to possible socker just last month.[2] Now thats a sign of "Growth" :P


--
Regards
Srikanth.L

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Re: Pure Fiction: Nichalp and Wifione

Ravishankar-3
In reply to this post by Ashwin Baindur
Ashwin,

I already said discussing in general terms is fine.
Nichalp Vs Wifione is out of the scope of this list in my opinion.

Ravi


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