Question: "UK" versus regional branding

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Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Fae-6
Picking up on Richard's Suggestions for Merchandise, as we are about
to start working with Museum Galleries Scotland to drive involvement
and a new GLAM events programme, I am considering how to "brand" it.

Are there any views for or against using an image of "Wikimedia in
Scotland" rather than just the WM-UK logo? My concern is that some
will resist joining in a "UK" branded programme but would rush to
support a country specific initiative. If it gets better results, we
could follow a similar pattern for Wales and avoid appearing to push
"UK" in every document (or teeshirt).

Cheers,
Fae
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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Thomas Dalton
On 13 September 2011 09:22, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Picking up on Richard's Suggestions for Merchandise, as we are about
> to start working with Museum Galleries Scotland to drive involvement
> and a new GLAM events programme, I am considering how to "brand" it.
>
> Are there any views for or against using an image of "Wikimedia in
> Scotland" rather than just the WM-UK logo? My concern is that some
> will resist joining in a "UK" branded programme but would rush to
> support a country specific initiative. If it gets better results, we
> could follow a similar pattern for Wales and avoid appearing to push
> "UK" in every document (or teeshirt).

Before signing the chapters agreement with the WMF, we were careful to
amend it to include permission for us to call ourselves "Wikimedia
Scotland" (etc.) in order to leave our options open for this kind of
thing. You could, therefore, use a Wikimedia Scotland logo (with some
small print making clear that both Wikimedia Scotland and Wikimedia UK
are trading names of Wiki UK Ltd. on anything more important that a
t-shirt).

The downside of that is that it harms brand recognition, since neither
brand is getting used as much as a single brand would be. The only
question really is whether the benefit from appeasing Scottish
nationalists outweighs the harm from splitting our brand. I don't know
enough about Scottish nationalism to know, but I can believe that it
would be.

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Tom Morris-5
In reply to this post by Fae-6
On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 09:22, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Are there any views for or against using an image of "Wikimedia in
> Scotland" rather than just the WM-UK logo? My concern is that some
> will resist joining in a "UK" branded programme but would rush to
> support a country specific initiative. If it gets better results, we
> could follow a similar pattern for Wales and avoid appearing to push
> "UK" in every document (or teeshirt).
>

Reductio ad absurdum:

Unless it says "Wikimedia East Sussex", I'm not interested! ;-)

--
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<http://tommorris.org/>

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Chris Keating-2


Reductio ad absurdum:

Unless it says "Wikimedia East Sussex", I'm not interested! ;-)


Actually the situation with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is quite different. Working in those nations with a "UK" name and an address in England tends to go down rather less well (particularly if you are dealing with institutions that are part of the national cultural fabric, as we are likely to). 

My only concern about using different national branding is that it might give an impression of more actual devolution than there genuinely is. 

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Thomas Dalton
On 13 September 2011 12:54, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>>
>> Reductio ad absurdum:
>>
>> Unless it says "Wikimedia East Sussex", I'm not interested! ;-)
>>
>
> Actually the situation with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is quite
> different. Working in those nations with a "UK" name and an address in
> England tends to go down rather less well (particularly if you are dealing
> with institutions that are part of the national cultural fabric, as we are
> likely to).
> My only concern about using different national branding is that it might
> give an impression of more actual devolution than there genuinely is.

One solution to that is to actually have some devolution. If there are
people interested in taking responsibility for Scottish cultural
outreach, then they could just be given a budget and left to get on
with it (with some oversight from the board, of course).

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Chris Keating-2

> Actually the situation with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is quite
> different. Working in those nations with a "UK" name and an address in
> England tends to go down rather less well (particularly if you are dealing
> with institutions that are part of the national cultural fabric, as we are
> likely to).
> My only concern about using different national branding is that it might
> give an impression of more actual devolution than there genuinely is.

One solution to that is to actually have some devolution. If there are
people interested in taking responsibility for Scottish cultural
outreach, then they could just be given a budget and left to get on
with it (with some oversight from the board, of course).

Well, indeed. Personally I would like to see that happen, but I think we are at least a year away from it at the moment.

Chris

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Roger Bamkin
If we have a brand that is unacceptable to Scotland (or a portion of it) then do we need to change rather than split our brand?
Is it the "UK" bit? Would the flag be more acceptable or a map of our country (yes I know that gives the Irish a problem).

Is it possible to use the Wikimedia logo next to a Scottish logo and fudge the issue? Wikimedia's message is internationalist not nationalist.

a thought
Roger



On 13 September 2011 13:07, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Actually the situation with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is quite
> different. Working in those nations with a "UK" name and an address in
> England tends to go down rather less well (particularly if you are dealing
> with institutions that are part of the national cultural fabric, as we are
> likely to).
> My only concern about using different national branding is that it might
> give an impression of more actual devolution than there genuinely is.

One solution to that is to actually have some devolution. If there are
people interested in taking responsibility for Scottish cultural
outreach, then they could just be given a budget and left to get on
with it (with some oversight from the board, of course).

Well, indeed. Personally I would like to see that happen, but I think we are at least a year away from it at the moment.

Chris

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Thomas Dalton
On 13 September 2011 14:00, Roger Bamkin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If we have a brand that is unacceptable to Scotland (or a portion of it)
> then do we need to change rather than split our brand?
> Is it the "UK" bit? Would the flag be more acceptable or a map of our
> country (yes I know that gives the Irish a problem).

We need a name, we can't just have a picture. (Or we'll end up being
"The Chapter formerly known as Wikimedia UK"!)

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

geni
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 13 September 2011 13:05, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One solution to that is to actually have some devolution. If there are
> people interested in taking responsibility for Scottish cultural
> outreach, then they could just be given a budget and left to get on
> with it (with some oversight from the board, of course).

An approach that gives you a real headache when someone makes the same
request for London (on population grounds it makes sense). There is at
the present time nowhere near the the level of activity for that kind
of split to make sense. Even if we did have the numbers slits work far
better if they cover areas that everyone in that area can access. A
group that covered everything from Gretna to Thurso makes little
sense.

--
geni

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Thomas Dalton

The decision shouldn't be made based on population, but on whether there would be a significant benefit. A Scottish group could be much more effective in Scotland than a UK group. The same isn't true of London. Londoners have a reputation for forgetting the rest of the country exists, but they don't object to it.

On Sep 13, 2011 11:28 PM, "geni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 13 September 2011 13:05, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One solution to that is to actually have some devolution. If there are
>> people interested in taking responsibility for Scottish cultural
>> outreach, then they could just be given a budget and left to get on
>> with it (with some oversight from the board, of course).
>
> An approach that gives you a real headache when someone makes the same
> request for London (on population grounds it makes sense). There is at
> the present time nowhere near the the level of activity for that kind
> of split to make sense. Even if we did have the numbers slits work far
> better if they cover areas that everyone in that area can access. A
> group that covered everything from Gretna to Thurso makes little
> sense.
>
> --
> geni
>
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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

brian.mcneil-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 12:15 +0100, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> On 13 September 2011 09:22, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Are there any views for or against using an image of "Wikimedia in
> > Scotland" rather than just the WM-UK logo? My concern is that some
> > will resist joining in a "UK" branded programme but would rush to
> > support a country specific initiative. If it gets better results, we
> > could follow a similar pattern for Wales and avoid appearing to push
> > "UK" in every document (or teeshirt).

> Before signing the chapters agreement with the WMF, we were careful to
> amend it to include permission for us to call ourselves "Wikimedia
> Scotland" (etc.) in order to leave our options open for this kind of
> thing. You could, therefore, use a Wikimedia Scotland logo (with some
> small print making clear that both Wikimedia Scotland and Wikimedia UK
> are trading names of Wiki UK Ltd. on anything more important that a
> t-shirt).

> The downside of that is that it harms brand recognition, since neither
> brand is getting used as much as a single brand would be. The only
> question really is whether the benefit from appeasing Scottish
> nationalists outweighs the harm from splitting our brand. I don't know
> enough about Scottish nationalism to know, but I can believe that it
> would be.

A simple illustration of the view from this side of the border was
expressed in today's freebie paper, the Metro. Surprisingly, it's
near-identical to one I personally used over ten years ago when living
in Belgium:

"Scottish first, European second, and British last". That, as I'd hope
people south of the border understand, is because to much of the rest of
the world Britain = England.

All three of the major UK political parties are looking seriously to, at
a minimum, devolve their Scottish presence and give it far more
autonomy. Further to that, a recent survey found that over 30% of the
population expect to see a truly independent Scotland in their lifetime.

Scottish national identity, and political awareness, has come a long,
long way since I was a student chucking past-their-sell-by-date duck
eggs at the Iron Lady.




Brian McNeil.
--
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Brian_McNeil - Accredited Reporter.
Facts don't cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news.


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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Bod Notbod
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Brian McNeil
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> All three of the major UK political parties are looking seriously to, at
> a minimum, devolve their Scottish presence and give it far more
> autonomy.

The impression I got, in the case of the tories, was that the Scottish
tory MPs wanted to re-brand and distance themselves but their English
counterparts weren't keen on them splitting away. I'm not sure that's
"looking to devolve".

But I guess this point is not particularly relevant to Wikimedia UK's
merchandising...

Bodnotbod

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Fae-6
In summary, I think the most common view is that if we are pushing
some events in Scotland then teeshirts with "Wikimedia in Scotland" as
the theme, maybe with a generic logo, would be a good thing.

Much as Liam set up glamwiki.org as a handy re-direct, perhaps we can
also set up a suitable .org domain for our collaboration space too.
I'll factor this into our plans when plotting in Edinburgh. ;-)

Cheers,
Fae
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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Thomas Morton
"Devolution" is a good idea; though with care taken to make sure links are strong and it is not seen as a "division" but as a recognition of "you're much better placed to organise this area of our outreach".

"Wikimedia in Scotland" is a great idea for focusing the brand.

There is no rule that says we have to use a single Wikimedia UK brand, and in the current climate (especially in Scotland) companies are now quite successfully leveraging a Scots targeted sub-brand. If this makes things more palatable north of the border - lets do it :)

Tom

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Fae-6
In reply to this post by Fae-6
> Much as Liam set up glamwiki.org as a handy re-direct

Apologies, of course Mike did the real work of sorting this out, Liam
sticks to the hand waiving and dodgy beard. It's a team of super
talents ;-)

Cheers,
Fae

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Bod Notbod
On 14/09/2011 21:14, Bod Notbod wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Brian McNeil
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> All three of the major UK political parties are looking seriously to, at
>> a minimum, devolve their Scottish presence and give it far more
>> autonomy.
>
> The impression I got, in the case of the tories, was that the Scottish
> tory MPs wanted to re-brand and distance themselves but their English
> counterparts weren't keen on them splitting away. I'm not sure that's
> "looking to devolve".

Erm no. The (widely reported) view of one of the leading contender for
Scottish Conservatives & Unionist party leadership does not equate to
the view of the entire party members in Scotland, or even the view of
Conservatives MSPs & MP.

KTC

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Fae-6
There seems to be an unspoken underlying assumption in this thread that
efforts that can be seem to be directed as appeasing Scottish
nationalists would not at the same time upset unionists.

"Wikimedia in Scotland" seems like a fair balance though.

KTC

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

brian.mcneil-2
On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 15:10 +0100, Katie Chan wrote:
> There seems to be an unspoken underlying assumption in this thread that
> efforts that can be seem to be directed as appeasing Scottish
> nationalists would not at the same time upset unionists.


I'd say that is assuming the "extreme" unionist position; that there is
*only* the United Kingdom, or Great Britain. Those holding such a
position are in a very, very small minority.

> "Wikimedia in Scotland" seems like a fair balance though.

Exactly. Scotland has a well-defined geographic, and cultural, identity.
It isn't "appeasing nationalists" to accept reality.


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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

geni
On 16 September 2011 14:13, Brian McNeil <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 15:10 +0100, Katie Chan wrote:
>> There seems to be an unspoken underlying assumption in this thread that
>> efforts that can be seem to be directed as appeasing Scottish
>> nationalists would not at the same time upset unionists.
>
>
> I'd say that is assuming the "extreme" unionist position; that there is
> *only* the United Kingdom, or Great Britain. Those holding such a
> position are in a very, very small minority.
>
>> "Wikimedia in Scotland" seems like a fair balance though.
>
> Exactly. Scotland has a well-defined geographic, and cultural, identity.
> It isn't "appeasing nationalists" to accept reality.

Oh it's worse than that. It's a well-defined geographic, and cultural,
identity invented by George IV's PR man. The fact that people have
tried to build a nationalist identity around it is vaguely sickening.
"Wikimedia Alba" would at least have the advantage of being a somewhat
authentic identity. Yes I'm aware that traditionally any civilised
lowlander would rather eat their own kidney than have any dealings
with those highland bandits but from what I understand that is no
longer the case (bloody meddling English).

--
geni

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Re: Question: "UK" versus regional branding

Fae-6
> "Wikimedia Alba" would at least have the advantage of being a somewhat
> authentic identity. Yes I'm aware that traditionally any civilised
> lowlander would rather eat their own kidney than have any dealings
> with those highland bandits but from what I understand that is no
> longer the case (bloody meddling English).
> --
> geni

Cripes' Ginger; remind this Kentishman to wear two extra strong pairs
of pants at the Edinburgh Wikimeet. Maybe we should take along some
permanent markers so that highland folks can write in their varied
preferred descriptions of their regional identity on their free
teeshirt sponsored by WM-UK. ;-)

Fae

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