Re: Citation templates s__k

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Re: Citation templates s__k

Daniel P. B. Smith
> From: "Steve Bennett" <[hidden email]>

> The benefit of storing citations in a semantically marked up format
> (such as the cite templates) should be self-evident. The fact that
> this is difficult to achieve at the present without producing
> unreadable wikitext is a problem - but it doesn't mean we should
> abandon the goal of maintaning references at a high level.

Agree, absolutely, but I'd certainly like to see a whole lot of  
improvement. This is an area where I think there could be a lot of  
technical fixes.

I use the "cite book" template a lot.

It's a mess.

About half the time, I have no clue what to enter for "first=" and  
"last=". I type in something, anything, that makes the formatted  
citation have a reasonable _appearance_, but the semantics are all  
wrong.

--What if the author has a middle name or initial? What if the author  
customarily is known only by initials and surname?

First=Katharine Anne|Last=Porter?
First=H. G.|Last=Wells?

--What if the author has an honorific or other prefix or suffix?

First=Roy|Last=Blount Jr.?
First=Dr. Phil|Last=McGraw?
First=Isidore|Last=Rosenfeld, M.D.?

--What if the book has no "authors" as such, only editors?

Title=The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language|
First=Editors|last=of the American Heritage Dictionaries?
Title=The Norton Anthology of American Literature|First=M. H.|
Last=Abrams (General Editor)?


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Re: Citation templates s__k

Luna-4
Huh -- is there a good reason to split first and last into seperate
parameters, in that case? I'm not sure why we couldn't just use a single
parameter for the name. Maybe I'm missing something, though.

On 12/11/06, Daniel P. B. Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > From: "Steve Bennett" <[hidden email]>
>
> > The benefit of storing citations in a semantically marked up format
> > (such as the cite templates) should be self-evident. The fact that
> > this is difficult to achieve at the present without producing
> > unreadable wikitext is a problem - but it doesn't mean we should
> > abandon the goal of maintaning references at a high level.
>
> Agree, absolutely, but I'd certainly like to see a whole lot of
> improvement. This is an area where I think there could be a lot of
> technical fixes.
>
> I use the "cite book" template a lot.
>
> It's a mess.
>
> About half the time, I have no clue what to enter for "first=" and
> "last=". I type in something, anything, that makes the formatted
> citation have a reasonable _appearance_, but the semantics are all
> wrong.
>
> --What if the author has a middle name or initial? What if the author
> customarily is known only by initials and surname?
>
> First=Katharine Anne|Last=Porter?
> First=H. G.|Last=Wells?
>
> --What if the author has an honorific or other prefix or suffix?
>
> First=Roy|Last=Blount Jr.?
> First=Dr. Phil|Last=McGraw?
> First=Isidore|Last=Rosenfeld, M.D.?
>
> --What if the book has no "authors" as such, only editors?
>
> Title=The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language|
> First=Editors|last=of the American Heritage Dictionaries?
> Title=The Norton Anthology of American Literature|First=M. H.|
> Last=Abrams (General Editor)?
>
>
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> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Citation templates s__k

Thomas Dalton
> Huh -- is there a good reason to split first and last into seperate
> parameters, in that case? I'm not sure why we couldn't just use a single
> parameter for the name. Maybe I'm missing something, though.

At the moment, it probably doesn't have any benefit, but it could be
useful in future to be able to search by surname, for example.

It should be easy enough to add a "name" parameter and design the
template so if the name parameter exists, it uses it, if it doesn't,
it uses the first and last parameters (otherwise it ignores them).
It's a pretty simple #if statement, it doesn't break existing use of
the template and makes the template easier to use in non-standard
cases.

I would add the field myself, but it's probably better if someone
familiar with this particular template does it, as it's rather
complicated and I'd have to read through the whole thing to make sure
I wasn't breaking something.

(The "last" parameter can be used in this way already, I think, but it
would be good to know when something isn't actually a surname.)
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Re: Citation templates s__k

Stephen Bain
On 12/12/06, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It should be easy enough to add a "name" parameter and design the
> template so if the name parameter exists, it uses it, if it doesn't,
> it uses the first and last parameters (otherwise it ignores them).
> It's a pretty simple #if statement, it doesn't break existing use of
> the template and makes the template easier to use in non-standard
> cases.

[[WP:CITET]] doesn't mention this, but most of the citation templates
obey the "author" parameter, which is what I use whenever there are
multiple authors or if it's an edited collection, because you can put
whatever text you like in there and the template won't try to
rearrange it.

There is also the "editor" parameter on some of the templates, which
surprisingly doesn't add "(ed)" or anything, it just spits out what it
is given.

Basically, if you want to put some free text for the author, use the
author parameter, which you can format however you want:

| author = H. G. Wells
| author = Wells, H. G.
| author = [[H. G. Wells|Wells, H. G.]]

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]
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Re: Citation templates s__k

Luna-4
On 12/11/06, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Basically, if you want to put some free text for the author, use the
> author parameter, which you can format however you want:
>
> | author = H. G. Wells
> | author = Wells, H. G.
> | author = [[H. G. Wells|Wells, H. G.]]


Although, just for clarity's sake (surely not everyone one the list is a
template nut), we could only use a given parameter once. If you have
multiple authors, they'd all need to be listed in the same line (author =
George, Bill, Adam).

Then again, anybody who's read this far into the thread probably *is* a
template nut. But eh. :p

-Luna
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Re: Citation templates s__k

Ligulem
In reply to this post by Daniel P. B. Smith
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> I use the "cite book" template a lot.
>
> It's a mess.
>

I suggest you join the discussion at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Cite_book and raise your
concerns there, so we can keep the discussion on-wiki and in one place.

Please also take a look at the archives there.

And beware of consensus. That thing has a history.

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Re: Citation templates s__k

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Luna-4
> Although, just for clarity's sake (surely not everyone one the list is a
> template nut), we could only use a given parameter once. If you have
> multiple authors, they'd all need to be listed in the same line (author =
> George, Bill, Adam).

There is a coauthor parameter, by the looks of it. I would imagine the
primary author (or just the first alphabetically if there isn't a
clear primary) should go under author and the others all under
coauthor.
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