Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

David Gerard-2
[re: mass-shifting of free-licence images from en:wp to commons]

On 16/12/06, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/16/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I mean for "this should be moved to Commons". Is there any reason I'm
> > not thinking of for not generally moving free content to Commons, as
> > the page on en:wp will continue to work just the same?

> Wating until we can move complete image histories to commons?
> The effect of the current situations is that there are many images for
> which only a en.wikipedia admin can find out their true history.


Ooh yes. Do we need to wait on single login for that to be a
reasonable thing to do? I understand a dev also has to explicitly
allow transwiki to move histories, though I'm not at all clear on the
details.

[cc'd to wikitech-l for my cluification]


- d.
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Rob Church
On 16/12/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ooh yes. Do we need to wait on single login for that to be a
> reasonable thing to do? I understand a dev also has to explicitly
> allow transwiki to move histories, though I'm not at all clear on the
> details.

As far as I know, Special:Import won't handle moving images in the
correct manner. Mind you, I've not been keeping 100% up to date with
what's developed lately, so I may well be wrong.


Rob Church
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Brion Vibber
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Rob Church wrote:
> On 16/12/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ooh yes. Do we need to wait on single login for that to be a
>> reasonable thing to do? I understand a dev also has to explicitly
>> allow transwiki to move histories, though I'm not at all clear on the
>> details.
>
> As far as I know, Special:Import won't handle moving images in the
> correct manner. Mind you, I've not been keeping 100% up to date with
> what's developed lately, so I may well be wrong.

Special:Export and Special:Import do not handle images at this time.
There's some specs for it in the XML format but currently it's only used
by the OAI feed system.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Rob Church
On 17/12/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Special:Export and Special:Import do not handle images at this time.
> There's some specs for it in the XML format but currently it's only used
> by the OAI feed system.

What might be the best approach to making this work, then? Chucking
the filename in the XML somewhere and having Special:Import do a local
copy, if possible?


Rob Church
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Brion Vibber
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Rob Church wrote:
> On 17/12/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Special:Export and Special:Import do not handle images at this time.
>> There's some specs for it in the XML format but currently it's only used
>> by the OAI feed system.
>
> What might be the best approach to making this work, then? Chucking
> the filename in the XML somewhere and having Special:Import do a local
> copy, if possible?

That's pretty much how it would work if you implemented the spec. I
stashed an example in docs/export-demo.xml:

<page>
  <title>Image:Some image.jpg</title>
[snip]
  <upload>
    <timestamp>2001-01-15T20:34:12Z</timestamp>
    <contributor><username>Foobar</username><id>42</id></contributor>
    <comment>My awesomeest image!</comment>
    <filename>Some_image.jpg</filename>
    <src>http://upload.wikimedia.org/commons/2/22/Some_image.jpg</src>
    <size>12345</size>
  </upload>
</page>

Probably not too hard to hack up, actually, if someone wants to give it
a try.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Magnus Manske-2
On 12/17/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Rob Church wrote:
> > On 17/12/06, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Special:Export and Special:Import do not handle images at this time.
> >> There's some specs for it in the XML format but currently it's only used
> >> by the OAI feed system.
> >
> > What might be the best approach to making this work, then? Chucking
> > the filename in the XML somewhere and having Special:Import do a local
> > copy, if possible?
>
> That's pretty much how it would work if you implemented the spec. I
> stashed an example in docs/export-demo.xml:
>
> <page>
>   <title>Image:Some image.jpg</title>
> [snip]
>   <upload>
>     <timestamp>2001-01-15T20:34:12Z</timestamp>
>     <contributor><username>Foobar</username><id>42</id></contributor>
>     <comment>My awesomeest image!</comment>
>     <filename>Some_image.jpg</filename>
>     <src>http://upload.wikimedia.org/commons/2/22/Some_image.jpg</src>
>     <size>12345</size>
>   </upload>
> </page>
>
> Probably not too hard to hack up, actually, if someone wants to give it
> a try.

Or, we could use query.php (or that other api thing...) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/query.php?what=imageinfo&titles=Image:Cetacea_range_map_Chinese_River_Dolphin.PNG

to import the image history, and use SpecialImport for the description
page only.

Magnus
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Rob Church
On 18/12/06, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Or, we could use query.php (or that other api thing...) :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/query.php?what=imageinfo&titles=Image:Cetacea_range_map_Chinese_River_Dolphin.PNG
>
> to import the image history, and use SpecialImport for the description
> page only.

No, I think it makes more sense if Special:Import handles the full,
proper import itself.


Rob Church
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Mark Clements (HappyDog)
"Rob Church" <[hidden email]> wrote in
message news:[hidden email]...
> On 18/12/06, Magnus Manske
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Or, we could use query.php (or that other api thing...) :
> >
> >
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/query.php?what=imageinfo&titles=Image:Cetacea_rang
e_map_Chinese_River_Dolphin.PNG
> >
> > to import the image history, and use SpecialImport for the description
> > page only.
>
> No, I think it makes more sense if Special:Import handles the full,
> proper import itself.
>
>
> Rob Church

I agree, Special:Import should copy the full image history as well as the
full page history.  The way it is at the moment just feels broken, and
making it a two stage process won't fix that.

We may also want an 'include files when relevant' check-box that can be
turned off for those occasions when you just want the text, although I can't
really think of a use for that - at least not for the way we use image pages
on WM projects.


- Mark Clements (HappyDog)



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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Magnus Manske-2
On 12/19/06, Mark Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Rob Church" <[hidden email]> wrote in
> message news:[hidden email]...
> > On 18/12/06, Magnus Manske
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Or, we could use query.php (or that other api thing...) :
> > >
> > >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/query.php?what=imageinfo&titles=Image:Cetacea_rang
> e_map_Chinese_River_Dolphin.PNG
> > >
> > > to import the image history, and use SpecialImport for the description
> > > page only.
> >
> > No, I think it makes more sense if Special:Import handles the full,
> > proper import itself.
> >
> >
> > Rob Church
>
> I agree, Special:Import should copy the full image history as well as the
> full page history.  The way it is at the moment just feels broken, and
> making it a two stage process won't fix that.

OK. So, how do we handle the user ids from the other project? Do we
assume single login is in place? Or do we create dummy users like
"en:someguy", user_id=0? (I didn't bother to look how it's handled in
Special:Import right now, easier to ask here;-)

Also, if we plan to do mass-moving, of images, should we add this
function to the api? What about handling the deletion of the images on
the "source wiki"? If these functions were available using
"name=xxx&password=yyy" on the api, it would save a lot of clicks with
a decent front-end (which I then would volunteer to develop;-)

> We may also want an 'include files when relevant' check-box that can be
> turned off for those occasions when you just want the text, although I can't
> really think of a use for that - at least not for the way we use image pages
> on WM projects.

A checkbox/option won't hurt. Except when people set up a wikipedia
mirror and leech the images from wikimedia servers that way...

Magnus
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Rotem Liss-2
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Magnus Manske wrote:
> OK. So, how do we handle the user ids from the other project? Do we
> assume single login is in place? Or do we create dummy users like
> "en:someguy", user_id=0? (I didn't bother to look how it's handled in
> Special:Import right now, easier to ask here;-)
>

As far as I remember, dummy users (user_id=0) are created if the users are not
exist.
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Rob Church
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
On 19/12/06, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OK. So, how do we handle the user ids from the other project? Do we
> assume single login is in place? Or do we create dummy users like
> "en:someguy", user_id=0? (I didn't bother to look how it's handled in
> Special:Import right now, easier to ask here;-)

Put the username in image.img_user_text and set image.img_user to 0.

> Also, if we plan to do mass-moving, of images, should we add this
> function to the api? What about handling the deletion of the images on
> the "source wiki"? If these functions were available using
> "name=xxx&password=yyy" on the api, it would save a lot of clicks with
> a decent front-end (which I then would volunteer to develop;-)

The API is none of my business; I gather a separate group has taken
the responsibility for designing and implementing it.


Rob Church
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Mark Clements (HappyDog)
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
"Magnus Manske" <[hidden email]> wrote
in message
news:[hidden email]...
> On 12/19/06, Mark Clements <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> >
> > I agree, Special:Import should copy the full image history as well as
the

> > full page history.  The way it is at the moment just feels broken, and
> > making it a two stage process won't fix that.
>
> OK. So, how do we handle the user ids from the other project? Do we
> assume single login is in place? Or do we create dummy users like
> "en:someguy", user_id=0? (I didn't bother to look how it's handled in
> Special:Import right now, easier to ask here;-)
>
> Also, if we plan to do mass-moving, of images, should we add this
> function to the api? What about handling the deletion of the images on
> the "source wiki"? If these functions were available using
> "name=xxx&password=yyy" on the api, it would save a lot of clicks with
> a decent front-end (which I then would volunteer to develop;-)
>

The current system works fine, as far as I am concerned.  The import is a
one-way process, and doesn't touch the material on the source wiki.  This is
as it should be, as there will be situations where you are trying to copy,
not move the material.  Currently you do the import and, if the content is
being moved, login to the remote wiki and either delete the page or add a
soft redirect. There should definitely _not_ be a mechanism for remotely
deleting wiki content from a remote wiki!

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)



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SpecialUserlogin and updateUser

Lane, Ryan
In SpecialUserlogin.php, it looks like after $wgAuth->updateUser( $u )
is called $u->saveSettings() is not called. This is not the same
behavior as before (in MediaWiki 1.6). Is this the correct behavior, or
should I put this into the bugzilla?

If this is the correct behavior, are plugin authors supposed to manually
call saveSettings in updateUser(), but not in initUser()?

V/r,

Ryan Lane
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Mark Clements (HappyDog)
On 12/19/06, Mark Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The current system works fine, as far as I am concerned.  The import is a
> one-way process, and doesn't touch the material on the source wiki.  This is
> as it should be, as there will be situations where you are trying to copy,
> not move the material.  Currently you do the import and, if the content is
> being moved, login to the remote wiki and either delete the page or add a
> soft redirect. There should definitely _not_ be a mechanism for remotely
> deleting wiki content from a remote wiki!

Why not? If I'm an admin on that remote wiki, it might be handy when
moving images to Commons. At the moment of writing this mail, there
are 657,331 media files on en.wikipedia. If 1/3 of them (rough guess)
are suitable for Commons, that means >200,000 manual deletions when
moving. If an api would allow image deletions by admins, it would save
a lot of unneccessary work, without compromising safety (the images
are kept, and the api could also offer undelete).

Magnus
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Gregory Maxwell
On 12/19/06, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why not? If I'm an admin on that remote wiki, it might be handy when
> moving images to Commons. At the moment of writing this mail, there
> are 657,331 media files on en.wikipedia. If 1/3 of them (rough guess)
> are suitable for Commons, that means >200,000 manual deletions when
> moving. If an api would allow image deletions by admins, it would save
> a lot of unneccessary work, without compromising safety (the images
> are kept, and the api could also offer undelete).

These images need to be reviewed by a human.. many of them obtained a
free tag through license roulette and are obvious violations to even
the most cursory examination. A move to commons is a good time to
perform such a check.

This isn't an argument against the API allowing deletion, but just a
factor pointing out that the dream of fully automated moves should
never be made real. :)
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Mark Clements (HappyDog)
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
"Magnus Manske" <[hidden email]> wrote
in message
news:[hidden email]...
> On 12/19/06, Mark Clements <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > The current system works fine, as far as I am concerned.  The import is
a
> > one-way process, and doesn't touch the material on the source wiki.
This is
> > as it should be, as there will be situations where you are trying to
copy,
> > not move the material.  Currently you do the import and, if the content
is
> > being moved, login to the remote wiki and either delete the page or add
a

> > soft redirect. There should definitely _not_ be a mechanism for remotely
> > deleting wiki content from a remote wiki!
>
> Why not? If I'm an admin on that remote wiki, it might be handy when
> moving images to Commons. At the moment of writing this mail, there
> are 657,331 media files on en.wikipedia. If 1/3 of them (rough guess)
> are suitable for Commons, that means >200,000 manual deletions when
> moving. If an api would allow image deletions by admins, it would save
> a lot of unneccessary work, without compromising safety (the images
> are kept, and the api could also offer undelete).
>

Because you are changing the trust model.  PersonA is an admin on WikiA and
has been trusted enough to delete articles and to perform a transwiki
import.  WikiB has not made PersonA an admin - they (implicitly) do not
trust PersonA to delete articles.  However, PersonA is allowed to delete
articles by using the transwiki import + delete.

Admins at WikiA have full delete rights at WikiB, even if they are
non-admins and explicitly blocked at WikiB!

I understand that you qualified your statement with "If I'm an admin on that
remote wiki...", but I don't see how that can be done without explicitly
requiring a username/password each time a user wants to delete (plus, you
are then giving your remote details to the local wiki sysadmin - an
unscrupulous sysadmin or maybe even a badly behaved extension would be able
to access these).

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)



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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Bence Damokos
>
> Admins at WikiA have full delete rights at WikiB, even if they are
> non-admins and explicitly blocked at WikiB!


As I understand this feature in no way would give deletion rights of WikiA
at WikiB,  they would still delete the file only at WikiA, regardless of the
interface they use.

I understand that you qualified your statement with "If I'm an admin on that
> remote wiki...", but I don't see how that can be done without explicitly
> requiring a username/password each time a user wants to delete (plus, you
> are then giving your remote details to the local wiki sysadmin - an
> unscrupulous sysadmin or maybe even a badly behaved extension would be
> able
> to access these).
>
Shouldn't single login (minus username conflicts), allow such
identification?

Bence
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Magnus Manske-2
On 12/19/06, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Admins at WikiA have full delete rights at WikiB, even if they are
> > non-admins and explicitly blocked at WikiB!
>
>
> As I understand this feature in no way would give deletion rights of WikiA
> at WikiB,  they would still delete the file only at WikiA, regardless of the
> interface they use.

Exactly. You'll need upload rights at WikiB to upload/import there,
and admin rights at WikiA to delete there.

The only potential problem could be from an evil admin who deletes
thousands of images through the api. But they'd all be recoverable
(maybe through the api); also, we could limit the number/speed of
api-based deletions.

Magnus
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Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Gregory Maxwell
On 12/19/06, Gregory Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> These images need to be reviewed by a human.. many of them obtained a
> free tag through license roulette and are obvious violations to even
> the most cursory examination. A move to commons is a good time to
> perform such a check.
>
> This isn't an argument against the API allowing deletion, but just a
> factor pointing out that the dream of fully automated moves should
> never be made real. :)

I'm not aiming for a "move everything" automaton, rather for a tool that can
* list images on a "source wiki" (e.g., all images of a user)
* shows thumbnails and description of each image
* has a checkbox for each image
* and a button "move selected images"

Basically, my "PushForCommons" tool, but pimped ;-)

For example, I remember there's some user (on de, I think) who
uploaded hundreds of images of tractors, which he took during some
exhibition. They all have a similar, complete description. I'd like to
be able to take these and move them all at once, since I know they're
all OK.

Magnus
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Importing images (plus deletion) (was: Re: [Commons-l] Recruit photographers with your blog)

Mark Clements (HappyDog)
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
"Magnus Manske" <[hidden email]> wrote
in message
news:[hidden email]...
> On 12/19/06, Bence Damokos
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Admins at WikiA have full delete rights at WikiB, even if they are
> > > non-admins and explicitly blocked at WikiB!
> >
> >
> > As I understand this feature in no way would give deletion rights of
WikiA
> > at WikiB,  they would still delete the file only at WikiA, regardless of
the
> > interface they use.
>
> Exactly. You'll need upload rights at WikiB to upload/import there,
> and admin rights at WikiA to delete there.
>

Yes, but the transwiki is an _import_, not an _export_ process (i.e. you
perform the operation from the target wiki), so how can this process perform
the remote delete without compromising security?

Perhaps I do not understand how transwiki works.  Is it possible for me, on
my private wiki, to set up WP as an import source for transwiki?

- Mark Clements (HappyDog)



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