Re: Durova's real name

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Re: Durova's real name

Matthew Brown-5
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:01 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> She has revealed her identity.
> Just not on-wiki.
> In an interview, speaking as a Wikipedian, she identifies with her on-wiki
> name and her off-wiki name.
>
> That's the point of this thread.  Not that someone *found out* who she  was
> surrepticiously, but that she herself revealed it.

What's missing from this discussion is why you're asking.

Is there an actual reason you want to be able to use her real name (or
anyone else's) - or is this simply a theoretical issue?

-Matt

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Re: Durova's real name

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard wrote:
> 2008/5/18 Anthony:
>  
>>  This said, "Durova" is at least a semi-reasonable handle.  If someone
>>  requested that I refer to them on-wiki as "Lord Voldemort" I think I'd
>>  have to refuse.  I say this with apologies to [[User:Lord Voldemort]].
>>    
> You could call him "Tom", though he might fly into a rage and turn you
> into a newt ...
It's an interesting twist on the issue.  I love the humble
self-deprecating tone of "Durova". (I just checked my Russian
dictionary.)  I have more problems with someone who wants to stress his
association with a pompous institution like the English House of Lords.  
I suppose we could always say "Oh, Lordy," as a way of helping to burst
that bubble.

Ec

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Re: Durova's real name

Thomas Dalton
On 19/05/2008, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
>  > 2008/5/18 Anthony:
>
> >
>  >>  This said, "Durova" is at least a semi-reasonable handle.  If someone
>  >>  requested that I refer to them on-wiki as "Lord Voldemort" I think I'd
>  >>  have to refuse.  I say this with apologies to [[User:Lord Voldemort]].
>  >>
>  > You could call him "Tom", though he might fly into a rage and turn you
>  > into a newt ...
>
> It's an interesting twist on the issue.  I love the humble
>  self-deprecating tone of "Durova". (I just checked my Russian
>  dictionary.)  I have more problems with someone who wants to stress his
>  association with a pompous institution like the English House of Lords.
>  I suppose we could always say "Oh, Lordy," as a way of helping to burst
>  that bubble.

To the best of my knowledge, Lord Voldemort never sat in the House of
Lords... The House is usually made up of peers of the realm, rather
than dark wizards... ;)

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Re: Durova's real name

Ray Saintonge
Thomas Dalton wrote:

> On 19/05/2008, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> David Gerard wrote:
>>  > 2008/5/18 Anthony:
>>
>>    
>>  >>  This said, "Durova" is at least a semi-reasonable handle.  If someone
>>  >>  requested that I refer to them on-wiki as "Lord Voldemort" I think I'd
>>  >>  have to refuse.  I say this with apologies to [[User:Lord Voldemort]].
>>  >>
>>  > You could call him "Tom", though he might fly into a rage and turn you
>>  > into a newt ...
>>
>> It's an interesting twist on the issue.  I love the humble
>>  self-deprecating tone of "Durova". (I just checked my Russian
>>  dictionary.)  I have more problems with someone who wants to stress his
>>  association with a pompous institution like the English House of Lords.
>>  I suppose we could always say "Oh, Lordy," as a way of helping to burst
>>  that bubble.
>>    
> To the best of my knowledge, Lord Voldemort never sat in the House of
> Lords... The House is usually made up of peers of the realm, rather
> than dark wizards... ;)
>  
Is there any difference? :-)

Ec

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Re: Durova's real name

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
Ray Saintonge wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
>> 2008/5/18 Anthony:
>>  
>>>  This said, "Durova" is at least a semi-reasonable handle.  If someone
>>>  requested that I refer to them on-wiki as "Lord Voldemort" I think I'd
>>>  have to refuse.  I say this with apologies to [[User:Lord Voldemort]].
>>>    
>> You could call him "Tom", though he might fly into a rage and turn you
>> into a newt ...
> It's an interesting twist on the issue.  I love the humble
> self-deprecating tone of "Durova". (I just checked my Russian
> dictionary.)  I have more problems with someone who wants to stress his
> association with a pompous institution like the English House of Lords.  
> I suppose we could always say "Oh, Lordy," as a way of helping to burst
> that bubble.
>
> Ec
>

Well, the original meaning of the word "lord" isn't that
high-faluting. It is merely the guy whose bread people
under one roof eat, the "host".

Yours

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen



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Re: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 5/19/2008 10:31:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

What's  missing from this discussion is why you're asking.

Is there an actual  reason you want to be able to use her real name (or
anyone else's) - or is  this simply a theoretical issue?>>


---------------------------------
 
There is a real editor, who after thousands of useful edits in-wiki is now  
indefinitely blocked until he agrees to never mention Durova's real name  again.
 
Whether or not such an agreement is useful to the project, the force used  to
ensure the editor complies seems very heavy to me.  Since Durova herself  
named herself, it does not seem out-of-procedure that we *could* as well.   That
is not the same as saying we *should* or we *must*, only that, if an editor  
does so, since she did so herself and her interviewed still resides on YouTube  
and she herself has evidently done nothing to have it removed, it seems  
anti-project to indef a long-term contrib simply for that reason solely.
 
Durova and I have had our moments of disagreement, and our moments of  
agreement.  I have no problem with her using or not using her real name, or  anyone
else doing so.
 
My sole radar-raising was about the method of forced compliance with  
something that seems to me, gray.
 
Will Johnson



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Re: Durova's real name

Thomas Dalton
>  There is a real editor, who after thousands of useful edits in-wiki is now
>  indefinitely blocked until he agrees to never mention Durova's real name  again.

That does seem rather excessive. I suspect there may be more to the
situation that you're letting on (there usually is in cases like this)
- how about a link?

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Fwd: Durova's real name

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by Majorly
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Durova
Date: Mon, May 19, 2008 at 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Durova's real name
To: Anthony <[hidden email]>


Thank you for the heads up.  Please post this to Wiki-en-I where I no
longer subscribe:

This is the second time it's been brought to my attention that
Wjhonson has approached third parties regarding this matter.  He has
never asked me, and if he had I'd have given him a straightforward
answer.  Now that he's brought the matter to a public forum I'll reply
in the same manner.

The reason my name is known elsewhere on the Internet is because
people who had an axe to grind outed my identity.  I stood up to it.
The coercion clause of Wikipedia's banning policy is a direct result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BAN#Coercion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy/Archive_2#Coercion:_proposed_additional_to_banning_policy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive97#Daniel_Brandt

Now Wjhonson complains that an editor named Eleemosynary was indeffed
for posting my name.  Well, Eleemosynary wasn't exactly a model
Wiki-citizen.  Here's the block log:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User:Eleemosynary

Significant parts of the talk page history itself have been deleted
and/or oversighted.  The basic chain of events is this:

*Eleemosynary was involved in a bitter onsite dispute about a BLP
article.  One editor was community banned over the dispute and later
another editor was banned at arbitration.

*The editor who was banned during arbitration remained in good
standing at another Wikimedia project and I was mentoring him there.

*I noticed that this banned editor had trolled Eleemosynary's user
space, so I confronted the banned editor about it and then made
Eleemosynary aware that I took the problem seriously.

*Eleemosynary insulted me and posted my real name.

*FT2 oversighted the real name and indeffed Eleemosynary.

*If Eleemosynary had promised not to repeat the mistake, then he or
she would have been unblocked quite swiftly.  Instead this editor
followed up with more insults.  Two more administrators stepped in to
try to quell the issue (it isn't often that JzG and Swatjester agree
on anything, but they did here).  Eleemosynary continued to escalate
until Swatjester protected the talk page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User+talk%3AEleemosynary&year=&month=-1
Not surprisingly, Wjhonson has also been active in the underlying
dispute.  I'm impartial in that dispute: I endorsed the Wikipedia
siteban of the same editor I'm mentoring on Commons, for instance.
But I did object to the obvious BLP violations that were occurring on
that page.  Namely, editors had been attempting to cite non-notable
blogs, open edit forums, and copyvio YouTube videos as sources for
highly damaging information about the subject.  In every instance
where I brought these issues to noticeboards for independent review,
the responses were solidly in my favor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Sanchez

Per Foundation privacy policy and arbitration precedent, I have never
disclosed my real name onsite.  The fact that my name is known offsite
is irrelevant: plenty of people have been indeffed for revealing names
that were known elsewhere on the Internet.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Privacy_policy

Whjonson's recent actions have the appearance forum shopping in
attempt to rally political support and to damage my reputation.  If he
wishes to dispel this appearance he may follow up with a post to that
effect and communicate directly with me in the future.  Otherwise, if
a third instance occurs, his actions will compel me to seek formal
remedy.  I bear no grudges; just raise your concerns directly.

-Durova

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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
In a message dated 5/21/2008 2:08:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

I  endorsed the Wikipedia
siteban of the same editor I'm mentoring on Commons,  for instance.
But I did object to the obvious BLP violations that were  occurring on
that page.  Namely, editors had been attempting to cite  non-notable
blogs, open edit forums, and copyvio YouTube videos as sources  for
highly damaging information about the subject.  In every  instance
where I brought these issues to noticeboards for independent  review,
the responses were solidly in my  favor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Sanchez>>
---------------------
You are mentoring Matt Sanchez ???  That is certainly news to  me.  Wouldn't
that mentoring imply that edits to his article would be  proxy for a banned
user?
----------------------------------



<<Per Foundation privacy policy and arbitration  precedent, I have never
disclosed my real name onsite.  The fact that  my name is known offsite
is irrelevant: plenty of people have been indeffed  for revealing names
that were known elsewhere on the  Internet.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Privacy_policy>>
------------------
Yes I retract my previous assertion that Durova self-identified with the  
person in that video, although here she clearly states that it's her.   Actually
it was the video-editor who evidently posted the video who in the  headline
identifies the person as Durova.  In the video itself he mentions  her real
name, and that's she is [was] an admin, but never mentions her  handle.  I had
never actually watched the video until last night.
---------------------------



Whjonson's recent actions have the appearance forum shopping  in
attempt to rally political support and to damage my reputation.  If  he
wishes to dispel this appearance he may follow up with a post to  that
effect and communicate directly with me in the future.   Otherwise, if
a third instance occurs, his actions will compel me to seek  formal
remedy.  I bear no grudges; just raise your concerns  directly.>>>

Hardly.  I brought it up to the blocking editor, and after a brief  
conversation, then brought it up here for further input into the  situation.  That's is
not forum shopping, it's an appropriate use of the  tools available.  Your
insinuation that I have a motive to *damage* you is  unfounded in fact or motive.
 
My motive is merely to get Eleemosynary to rejoin the project.  And to  
devise a way that that can be accomplished.  However your  self-identification as a
mentor for an Arb-banned user -- Banned from all  editing for one YEAR) is a
bit startling.  Did I misunderstand you?
 
Will Johnson



**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

Thomas Dalton
>  You are mentoring Matt Sanchez ???  That is certainly news to  me.  Wouldn't
>  that mentoring imply that edits to his article would be  proxy for a banned
>  user?

How on Earth does that follow?

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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
And See Also
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Durova#You_and_I_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Durova#You_and_I)
 
my direct post to Durova since she asked for direct communication.
 
The issue in my mind isn't necessarily between Eleemosynary *and* Durova  
which is why I didn't post to her directly.  The issue is with  Eleemosynary's
indef block (not ban).
 
It seems like the issue raised could be resolved, but the community must be  
able to communicate with Eleemosynary in some fashion, which is why I
un-redir'd  his talk page.
 
Will Johnson



**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

Nathan Awrich
It seems like there is a pretty strong consensus on this list, WJohnson -
its custom and reasonable to expect editors not to use the real names of
other editors who request otherwise, and reasonable to demand that editors
who refuse to follow that custom agree to do so before they edit further.
FT2 has repeated that the block on Eleemosynary will be lifted if he/she
agrees not to repeat the real names of pseudonymous editors.

What further object do you hope to achieve?

Nathan
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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 5/21/2008 11:02:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

FT2 has  repeated that the block on Eleemosynary will be lifted if he/she
agrees not  to repeat the real names of pseudonymous editors.

What further object  do you hope to achieve?>>



-----------------------
 
To be an instrument in bringing a valued editor back into the  project.
 
Will Johnson



**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

Nathan Awrich
The mechanism for that is fairly straightforward - would you like for him to
come back and be free to continue to refer to Durova by her real name? If he
agrees not to, he's unblocked. Why would he not agree, except to preserve
his "right" to troll by refusing to honor her preference?

Nathan

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 2:05 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 5/21/2008 11:02:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
> FT2 has  repeated that the block on Eleemosynary will be lifted if he/she
> agrees not  to repeat the real names of pseudonymous editors.
>
> What further object  do you hope to achieve?>>
>
>
>
> -----------------------
>
> To be an instrument in bringing a valued editor back into the  project.
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
> (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 5/21/2008 11:22:28 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

The  mechanism for that is fairly straightforward - would you like for him  to
come back and be free to continue to refer to Durova by her real name?  If he
agrees not to, he's unblocked. Why would he not agree, except to  preserve
his "right" to troll by refusing to honor her  preference?>>


----------------
 
So you have a way to contact him directly?



**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

Matthew Brown-5
In reply to this post by Anthony-73
As I suspected, the normal rule to follow when someone won't give
specifics about a situation applies here too - the specifics hurt the
writer's case and by leaving them out they hope to be more persuasive.

WJhonson, you don't do your argument any favors by doing this.  All it
does is make people suspect that there's more to the story - which in
fact turned out to be the case.

-Matt

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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

George William Herbert
In reply to this post by WJhonson
On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:05 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [hidden email] writes:
>> FT2 has  repeated that the block on Eleemosynary will be lifted if he/she
>> agrees not  to repeat the real names of pseudonymous editors.
>>
>> What further object  do you hope to achieve?
>
> To be an instrument in bringing a valued editor back into the  project.

Your engagement and discussion here doesn't seem to be oriented
towards that goal, however.

There are two ways to do that:

1. Convince Eleemosynary to abide by the behavior restrictions FT2
noted, which are existing policy and applicable to the situation as
described.

2. Explain enough of the situation accurately that people can look
into it themselves, determine if there was a policy or admin behavior
violation involved, and work to convince either FT2 or the admin
community to reverse that decision.

What you did was not applicable to 1 and not sufficient for 2, and now
that I have enough information I doubt that 2 is appropriate as a
solution anyways.



--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
In a message dated 5/21/2008 11:50:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

As I  suspected, the normal rule to follow when someone won't give
specifics  about a situation applies here too - the specifics hurt the
writer's case  and by leaving them out they hope to be more persuasive.

WJhonson, you don't do your argument any favors by doing this.   All it
does is make people suspect that there's more to the story - which  in
fact turned out to be the case.>>

----------
 
I never said there wasn't more to the story.  I did not, and do not,  know
the entire backstory of Eleemosynary's actions.  I was reacting solely  and
simply to the one issue raised by FT2, not to anything else, which is not  
relevant as FT2 has stated clearly what his issue was with Eleemosynary.
 
The story has a very long pedigree in-wiki.  I wasn't trying to  address the
entire story, but one microscopic point in the long story.
 
Will Johnson



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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

Matthew Brown-5
On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:32 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The story has a very long pedigree in-wiki.  I wasn't trying to  address the
> entire story, but one microscopic point in the long story.

The problem is, though, that shorn of the context the only answers
you're going to get are general ones.  The general answer that most of
us gave is that insisting on posting someone's real name when they've
asked people not to do it is uncivil and disruptive unless there is
good reason for it.

The specifics of this instance seem to indicate that Eleemosynary was
being deliberately uncivil and disruptive by doing so and it was part
of a general pattern of such behavior.

-Matt

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Re: Fwd: Durova's real name

WJhonson
In reply to this post by WJhonson
 
In a message dated 5/21/2008 12:57:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

The  specifics of this instance seem to indicate that Eleemosynary was
being  deliberately uncivil and disruptive by doing so and it was part
of a  general pattern of such behavior.>>>


-------------------
 
I don't think I disagreed with that assessment, but in general we do not  
handle that by an indef.
 
The specific reason for the indef was mentioning Durova's real name, and  
thus that is the sole issue I brought, so we could discuss it.  The entire  
year-long history muddies the waters and we cannot focus on the one issue in  which
I was interested.
 
Will Johnson



**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
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