Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

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Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
There is a process for the start of new projects and for the start of new
language versions. This is a formal process and it does not involve the
voting of people. What it does involve is the existence of languages
recognised in the ISO-639-3. As such Norwegian, or the no /nor code is
considered a macro-language and does not qualify for a new project.

It is explicitly understood that by no.wikipedia.org we expect it to be
Bokmal.
Thanks,
     GerardM

http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Portal:No

2005/4/25 Bjarte Sørensen <[hidden email]>

> Dear all,
>
> Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have occurred
> around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
> discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
> well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
> voting.
>
> This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
> wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest development
> and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
> international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia, so
> as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
>
> Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a small
> number of users at the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål (no:) wikipedia who want
> to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
> _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the contents
> of the two current Norwegian versions.
>
> == A short language history of Norway ==
>
> Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a fairly
> unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in that
> it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokmål (ISO 639-2 alpha-2
> code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
> legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
> Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
> Bokmål and its precursor which still is in use, Riksmål.
>
> Briefly speaking, Bokmål and Riksmål are descendants of the Danish
> written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
> written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union with
> Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
> Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing parts
> of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksmål, and later Bokmål,
> resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90% of
> Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
>
> Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by Ivar
> Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
> language, landsmål, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
> from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern Nynorsk
> differs significantly from modern Bokmål, and may be linguistically
> looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is to
> Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
> likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German and
> Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
> Nynorsk as their first written language.
>
> More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
> English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
> Norwegian Language Council:
> http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
>
> == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
>
> The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the subdomain
> no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article count
> started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
> accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
> Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
> feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
> one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
>
> The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia. Many
> felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
> become a Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and claimed
> that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
> language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
> "Norsk".
>
> Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
> months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
> (mainly) Bokmål environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
> links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper case
> in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
> wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
> and >50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
>
> == Votes ==
>
> The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
> vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:Målform]]) as to which policy to
> adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to include
> new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
> Bokmål/Riksmål only language policy (50% for Bokmål/Riksmål, 43.2% for
> Bokmål/Riksmål/Nynorsk/Høgnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
> Bokmål/Nynorsk only).
>
> Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
> interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current language
> policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either "Norsk
> (bokmål)" or "Norsk (bokmål/riksmål)".
>
> Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the subdomain
> should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct representation
> of Bokmål according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
> towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
> Bokmål wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested is a
> server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb" today
> is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
>
> == Summary of the problem ==
>
> Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokmål/Riksmål) are
> ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
> re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
> claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
> (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
> comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
> have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
> wikipedia containing both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it is merely an unofficial
> initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list at
> [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
> against this activity was immediately created at
> [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a third
> Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of the
> two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
> considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
>
> We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
> foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the existing
> wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
> reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
> operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias (including
> Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
> [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of featured
> articles from neighbour wikipedias.
>
> == Conclusion ==
>
> Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
> complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community, so
> as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this list
> in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
> request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
> Wikipedia.
>
> >From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
>
> Bjarte Sørensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on
> nn:)
> Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
> Øyvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
> Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
> Jon Harald Søby [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
> Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
> Guttorm Flatabø [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
> Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
> Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
> Øyvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and no:)
> Kristian André Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
> Vegard Wærp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
> Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
> Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
> Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
> Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
> Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

M. Williamson
Gerard, on my e-mail this shows as a reply to an e-mail thread from 2005.
Was this your intention?


2012/3/21 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> There is a process for the start of new projects and for the start of new
> language versions. This is a formal process and it does not involve the
> voting of people. What it does involve is the existence of languages
> recognised in the ISO-639-3. As such Norwegian, or the no /nor code is
> considered a macro-language and does not qualify for a new project.
>
> It is explicitly understood that by no.wikipedia.org we expect it to be
> Bokmal.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Portal:No
>
> 2005/4/25 Bjarte Sørensen <[hidden email]>
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have occurred
> > around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
> > discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
> > well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
> > voting.
> >
> > This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
> > wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest development
> > and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
> > international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia, so
> > as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
> >
> > Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a small
> > number of users at the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål (no:) wikipedia who want
> > to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
> > _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the contents
> > of the two current Norwegian versions.
> >
> > == A short language history of Norway ==
> >
> > Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a fairly
> > unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in that
> > it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokmål (ISO 639-2 alpha-2
> > code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
> > legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
> > Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
> > Bokmål and its precursor which still is in use, Riksmål.
> >
> > Briefly speaking, Bokmål and Riksmål are descendants of the Danish
> > written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
> > written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union with
> > Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
> > Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing parts
> > of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksmål, and later Bokmål,
> > resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90% of
> > Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
> >
> > Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by Ivar
> > Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
> > language, landsmål, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
> > from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern Nynorsk
> > differs significantly from modern Bokmål, and may be linguistically
> > looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is to
> > Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
> > likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German and
> > Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
> > Nynorsk as their first written language.
> >
> > More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
> > English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
> > Norwegian Language Council:
> > http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
> >
> > == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
> >
> > The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the subdomain
> > no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article count
> > started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
> > accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
> > Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
> > feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
> > one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
> >
> > The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia. Many
> > felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
> > become a Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and claimed
> > that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
> > language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
> > "Norsk".
> >
> > Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
> > months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
> > (mainly) Bokmål environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
> > links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper case
> > in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
> > wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
> > and >50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
> >
> > == Votes ==
> >
> > The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
> > vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:Målform]]) as to which policy to
> > adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to include
> > new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
> > Bokmål/Riksmål only language policy (50% for Bokmål/Riksmål, 43.2% for
> > Bokmål/Riksmål/Nynorsk/Høgnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
> > Bokmål/Nynorsk only).
> >
> > Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
> > interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current language
> > policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either "Norsk
> > (bokmål)" or "Norsk (bokmål/riksmål)".
> >
> > Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the subdomain
> > should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct representation
> > of Bokmål according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
> > towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
> > Bokmål wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested is a
> > server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb" today
> > is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
> >
> > == Summary of the problem ==
> >
> > Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokmål/Riksmål) are
> > ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
> > re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
> > claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
> > (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
> > comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
> > have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
> > wikipedia containing both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it is merely an unofficial
> > initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list at
> > [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
> > against this activity was immediately created at
> > [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a third
> > Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of the
> > two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
> > considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
> >
> > We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
> > foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the existing
> > wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
> > reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
> > operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias (including
> > Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
> > [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of featured
> > articles from neighbour wikipedias.
> >
> > == Conclusion ==
> >
> > Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
> > complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community, so
> > as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this list
> > in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
> > request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
> > Wikipedia.
> >
> > >From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
> >
> > Bjarte Sørensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]] (Administrator/bureaucrat
> on
> > nn:)
> > Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
> > Øyvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
> > Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
> > Jon Harald Søby [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
> > Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
> > Guttorm Flatabø [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > Øyvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and no:)
> > Kristian André Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
> > Vegard Wærp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
> > Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
> > Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
> > Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
> > Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
> > Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
Wikipedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
It did not trigger me that it was that old. If I had I would not have
answered it.
Thanks,
    Gerard

On 1 April 2012 02:22, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerard, on my e-mail this shows as a reply to an e-mail thread from 2005.
> Was this your intention?
>
>
> 2012/3/21 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hoi,
> > There is a process for the start of new projects and for the start of new
> > language versions. This is a formal process and it does not involve the
> > voting of people. What it does involve is the existence of languages
> > recognised in the ISO-639-3. As such Norwegian, or the no /nor code is
> > considered a macro-language and does not qualify for a new project.
> >
> > It is explicitly understood that by no.wikipedia.org we expect it to be
> > Bokmal.
> > Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >
> > http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Portal:No
> >
> > 2005/4/25 Bjarte Sørensen <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have
> occurred
> > > around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
> > > discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
> > > well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
> > > voting.
> > >
> > > This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
> > > wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest development
> > > and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
> > > international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia, so
> > > as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
> > >
> > > Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a small
> > > number of users at the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål (no:) wikipedia who
> want
> > > to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
> > > _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the
> contents
> > > of the two current Norwegian versions.
> > >
> > > == A short language history of Norway ==
> > >
> > > Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a fairly
> > > unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in that
> > > it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokmål (ISO 639-2 alpha-2
> > > code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
> > > legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
> > > Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
> > > Bokmål and its precursor which still is in use, Riksmål.
> > >
> > > Briefly speaking, Bokmål and Riksmål are descendants of the Danish
> > > written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
> > > written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union with
> > > Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
> > > Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing parts
> > > of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksmål, and later Bokmål,
> > > resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90% of
> > > Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
> > >
> > > Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by
> Ivar
> > > Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
> > > language, landsmål, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
> > > from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern Nynorsk
> > > differs significantly from modern Bokmål, and may be linguistically
> > > looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is
> to
> > > Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
> > > likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German and
> > > Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
> > > Nynorsk as their first written language.
> > >
> > > More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
> > > English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
> > > Norwegian Language Council:
> > > http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
> > >
> > > == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
> > >
> > > The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the subdomain
> > > no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article
> count
> > > started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
> > > accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
> > > Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
> > > feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
> > > one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
> > >
> > > The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia.
> Many
> > > felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
> > > become a Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and claimed
> > > that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
> > > language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
> > > "Norsk".
> > >
> > > Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
> > > months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
> > > (mainly) Bokmål environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
> > > links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper case
> > > in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
> > > wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
> > > and >50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
> > >
> > > == Votes ==
> > >
> > > The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
> > > vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:Målform]]) as to which policy
> to
> > > adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to
> include
> > > new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
> > > Bokmål/Riksmål only language policy (50% for Bokmål/Riksmål, 43.2% for
> > > Bokmål/Riksmål/Nynorsk/Høgnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
> > > Bokmål/Nynorsk only).
> > >
> > > Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
> > > interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current
> language
> > > policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either
> "Norsk
> > > (bokmål)" or "Norsk (bokmål/riksmål)".
> > >
> > > Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the
> subdomain
> > > should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct representation
> > > of Bokmål according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
> > > towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
> > > Bokmål wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested is a
> > > server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb" today
> > > is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
> > >
> > > == Summary of the problem ==
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokmål/Riksmål)
> are
> > > ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
> > > re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
> > > claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
> > > (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
> > > comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
> > > have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
> > > wikipedia containing both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it is merely an
> unofficial
> > > initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list at
> > > [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
> > > against this activity was immediately created at
> > > [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a
> third
> > > Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of the
> > > two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
> > > considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
> > >
> > > We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
> > > foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the existing
> > > wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
> > > reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
> > > operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias (including
> > > Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
> > > [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of
> featured
> > > articles from neighbour wikipedias.
> > >
> > > == Conclusion ==
> > >
> > > Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
> > > complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community, so
> > > as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this list
> > > in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
> > > request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
> > > Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > >From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
> > >
> > > Bjarte Sørensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]] (Administrator/bureaucrat
> > on
> > > nn:)
> > > Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
> > > Øyvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > Jon Harald Søby [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > Guttorm Flatabø [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > > Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > > Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > > Øyvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and
> no:)
> > > Kristian André Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
> > > Vegard Wærp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
> > > Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
> > > Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
> > > Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
> > > Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
> > > Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

Thomas Dalton
I've certainly made that mistake before! Although, 7 years late is
impressive... Where did you find the email?

I'm curious now, does anyone know what ended up happening with the Norsk
Wikipedias?
On Apr 1, 2012 9:16 AM, "Gerard Meijssen" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> It did not trigger me that it was that old. If I had I would not have
> answered it.
> Thanks,
>    Gerard
>
> On 1 April 2012 02:22, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Gerard, on my e-mail this shows as a reply to an e-mail thread from 2005.
> > Was this your intention?
> >
> >
> > 2012/3/21 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > There is a process for the start of new projects and for the start of
> new
> > > language versions. This is a formal process and it does not involve the
> > > voting of people. What it does involve is the existence of languages
> > > recognised in the ISO-639-3. As such Norwegian, or the no /nor code is
> > > considered a macro-language and does not qualify for a new project.
> > >
> > > It is explicitly understood that by no.wikipedia.org we expect it to
> be
> > > Bokmal.
> > > Thanks,
> > >     GerardM
> > >
> > > http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Portal:No
> > >
> > > 2005/4/25 Bjarte Sørensen <[hidden email]>
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have
> > occurred
> > > > around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
> > > > discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
> > > > well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
> > > > voting.
> > > >
> > > > This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
> > > > wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest
> development
> > > > and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
> > > > international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia,
> so
> > > > as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a
> small
> > > > number of users at the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål (no:) wikipedia who
> > want
> > > > to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
> > > > _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the
> > contents
> > > > of the two current Norwegian versions.
> > > >
> > > > == A short language history of Norway ==
> > > >
> > > > Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a
> fairly
> > > > unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in
> that
> > > > it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokmål (ISO 639-2
> alpha-2
> > > > code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
> > > > legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
> > > > Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
> > > > Bokmål and its precursor which still is in use, Riksmål.
> > > >
> > > > Briefly speaking, Bokmål and Riksmål are descendants of the Danish
> > > > written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
> > > > written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union
> with
> > > > Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
> > > > Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing
> parts
> > > > of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksmål, and later Bokmål,
> > > > resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90%
> of
> > > > Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
> > > >
> > > > Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by
> > Ivar
> > > > Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
> > > > language, landsmål, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
> > > > from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern
> Nynorsk
> > > > differs significantly from modern Bokmål, and may be linguistically
> > > > looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is
> > to
> > > > Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
> > > > likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German
> and
> > > > Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
> > > > Nynorsk as their first written language.
> > > >
> > > > More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
> > > > English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
> > > > Norwegian Language Council:
> > > > http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
> > > >
> > > > == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
> > > >
> > > > The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the
> subdomain
> > > > no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article
> > count
> > > > started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
> > > > accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
> > > > Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
> > > > feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
> > > > one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
> > > >
> > > > The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia.
> > Many
> > > > felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
> > > > become a Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and
> claimed
> > > > that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
> > > > language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
> > > > "Norsk".
> > > >
> > > > Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
> > > > months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
> > > > (mainly) Bokmål environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
> > > > links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper
> case
> > > > in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
> > > > wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
> > > > and >50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
> > > >
> > > > == Votes ==
> > > >
> > > > The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
> > > > vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:Målform]]) as to which policy
> > to
> > > > adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to
> > include
> > > > new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
> > > > Bokmål/Riksmål only language policy (50% for Bokmål/Riksmål, 43.2%
> for
> > > > Bokmål/Riksmål/Nynorsk/Høgnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
> > > > Bokmål/Nynorsk only).
> > > >
> > > > Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
> > > > interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current
> > language
> > > > policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either
> > "Norsk
> > > > (bokmål)" or "Norsk (bokmål/riksmål)".
> > > >
> > > > Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the
> > subdomain
> > > > should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct
> representation
> > > > of Bokmål according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
> > > > towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
> > > > Bokmål wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested
> is a
> > > > server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb"
> today
> > > > is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
> > > >
> > > > == Summary of the problem ==
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokmål/Riksmål)
> > are
> > > > ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
> > > > re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
> > > > claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
> > > > (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
> > > > comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
> > > > have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
> > > > wikipedia containing both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it is merely an
> > unofficial
> > > > initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list
> at
> > > > [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
> > > > against this activity was immediately created at
> > > > [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a
> > third
> > > > Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of
> the
> > > > two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
> > > > considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
> > > >
> > > > We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
> > > > foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the
> existing
> > > > wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
> > > > reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
> > > > operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias
> (including
> > > > Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
> > > > [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of
> > featured
> > > > articles from neighbour wikipedias.
> > > >
> > > > == Conclusion ==
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
> > > > complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community,
> so
> > > > as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this
> list
> > > > in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
> > > > request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
> > > > Wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > >From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
> > > >
> > > > Bjarte Sørensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]]
> (Administrator/bureaucrat
> > > on
> > > > nn:)
> > > > Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
> > > > Øyvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > > Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > > Jon Harald Søby [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > > Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
> > > > Guttorm Flatabø [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > > > Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > > > Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
> > > > Øyvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and
> > no:)
> > > > Kristian André Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
> > > > Vegard Wærp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
> > > > Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
> > > > Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
> > > > Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
> > > > Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
> > > > Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

Bob the Wikipedian
Sometimes Thunderbird sorts my mail in reverse chronological order; I
wouldn't be surprised if that happened here.

Bob

On 4/1/2012 3:21 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> I've certainly made that mistake before! Although, 7 years late is
> impressive... Where did you find the email?
>
> I'm curious now, does anyone know what ended up happening with the Norsk
> Wikipedias?
> On Apr 1, 2012 9:16 AM, "Gerard Meijssen"<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> It did not trigger me that it was that old. If I had I would not have
>> answered it.
>> Thanks,
>>     Gerard
>>
>> On 1 April 2012 02:22, M. Williamson<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> Gerard, on my e-mail this shows as a reply to an e-mail thread from 2005.
>>> Was this your intention?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2012/3/21 Gerard Meijssen<[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> There is a process for the start of new projects and for the start of
>> new
>>>> language versions. This is a formal process and it does not involve the
>>>> voting of people. What it does involve is the existence of languages
>>>> recognised in the ISO-639-3. As such Norwegian, or the no /nor code is
>>>> considered a macro-language and does not qualify for a new project.
>>>>
>>>> It is explicitly understood that by no.wikipedia.org we expect it to
>> be
>>>> Bokmal.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>      GerardM
>>>>
>>>> http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Portal:No
>>>>
>>>> 2005/4/25 Bjarte Sørensen<[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have
>>> occurred
>>>>> around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
>>>>> discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
>>>>> well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
>>>>> voting.
>>>>>
>>>>> This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
>>>>> wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest
>> development
>>>>> and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
>>>>> international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia,
>> so
>>>>> as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a
>> small
>>>>> number of users at the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål (no:) wikipedia who
>>> want
>>>>> to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
>>>>> _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the
>>> contents
>>>>> of the two current Norwegian versions.
>>>>>
>>>>> == A short language history of Norway ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a
>> fairly
>>>>> unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in
>> that
>>>>> it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokmål (ISO 639-2
>> alpha-2
>>>>> code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
>>>>> legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
>>>>> Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
>>>>> Bokmål and its precursor which still is in use, Riksmål.
>>>>>
>>>>> Briefly speaking, Bokmål and Riksmål are descendants of the Danish
>>>>> written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
>>>>> written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union
>> with
>>>>> Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
>>>>> Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing
>> parts
>>>>> of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksmål, and later Bokmål,
>>>>> resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90%
>> of
>>>>> Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by
>>> Ivar
>>>>> Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
>>>>> language, landsmål, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
>>>>> from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern
>> Nynorsk
>>>>> differs significantly from modern Bokmål, and may be linguistically
>>>>> looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is
>>> to
>>>>> Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
>>>>> likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German
>> and
>>>>> Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
>>>>> Nynorsk as their first written language.
>>>>>
>>>>> More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
>>>>> English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
>>>>> Norwegian Language Council:
>>>>> http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
>>>>>
>>>>> == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
>>>>>
>>>>> The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the
>> subdomain
>>>>> no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article
>>> count
>>>>> started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
>>>>> accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
>>>>> Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
>>>>> feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
>>>>> one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
>>>>>
>>>>> The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia.
>>> Many
>>>>> felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
>>>>> become a Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and
>> claimed
>>>>> that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
>>>>> language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
>>>>> "Norsk".
>>>>>
>>>>> Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
>>>>> months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
>>>>> (mainly) Bokmål environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
>>>>> links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper
>> case
>>>>> in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
>>>>> wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
>>>>> and>50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
>>>>>
>>>>> == Votes ==
>>>>>
>>>>> The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
>>>>> vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:Målform]]) as to which policy
>>> to
>>>>> adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to
>>> include
>>>>> new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
>>>>> Bokmål/Riksmål only language policy (50% for Bokmål/Riksmål, 43.2%
>> for
>>>>> Bokmål/Riksmål/Nynorsk/Høgnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
>>>>> Bokmål/Nynorsk only).
>>>>>
>>>>> Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
>>>>> interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current
>>> language
>>>>> policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either
>>> "Norsk
>>>>> (bokmål)" or "Norsk (bokmål/riksmål)".
>>>>>
>>>>> Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the
>>> subdomain
>>>>> should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct
>> representation
>>>>> of Bokmål according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
>>>>> towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
>>>>> Bokmål wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested
>> is a
>>>>> server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb"
>> today
>>>>> is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
>>>>>
>>>>> == Summary of the problem ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokmål/Riksmål)
>>> are
>>>>> ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
>>>>> re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
>>>>> claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
>>>>> (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
>>>>> comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
>>>>> have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
>>>>> wikipedia containing both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it is merely an
>>> unofficial
>>>>> initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list
>> at
>>>>> [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
>>>>> against this activity was immediately created at
>>>>> [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a
>>> third
>>>>> Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of
>> the
>>>>> two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
>>>>> considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
>>>>>
>>>>> We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
>>>>> foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the
>> existing
>>>>> wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
>>>>> reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
>>>>> operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias
>> (including
>>>>> Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
>>>>> [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of
>>> featured
>>>>> articles from neighbour wikipedias.
>>>>>
>>>>> == Conclusion ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
>>>>> complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community,
>> so
>>>>> as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this
>> list
>>>>> in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
>>>>> request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
>>>>> Wikipedia.
>>>>>
>>>>> > From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bjarte Sørensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]]
>> (Administrator/bureaucrat
>>>> on
>>>>> nn:)
>>>>> Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
>>>>> Øyvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Jon Harald Søby [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Guttorm Flatabø [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
>>>>> Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
>>>>> Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
>>>>> Øyvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and
>>> no:)
>>>>> Kristian André Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
>>>>> Vegard Wærp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
>>>>> Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
>>>>> Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
>>>>> Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
>>>>> Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
>>>>> Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>
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Re: Language policy agreement in the Norwegian Wikipedia community

Bob the Wikipedian
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Also, the no.* subdomain is alive and kicking; I'm actually working on
upgrading their taxobox to actually serve its implied purpose-- for
whatever reason, it hasn't so far displayed any sort of taxonomy. But
that's about to change. :)

Bob

On 4/1/2012 3:21 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> I've certainly made that mistake before! Although, 7 years late is
> impressive... Where did you find the email?
>
> I'm curious now, does anyone know what ended up happening with the Norsk
> Wikipedias?
> On Apr 1, 2012 9:16 AM, "Gerard Meijssen"<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> It did not trigger me that it was that old. If I had I would not have
>> answered it.
>> Thanks,
>>     Gerard
>>
>> On 1 April 2012 02:22, M. Williamson<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> Gerard, on my e-mail this shows as a reply to an e-mail thread from 2005.
>>> Was this your intention?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2012/3/21 Gerard Meijssen<[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> There is a process for the start of new projects and for the start of
>> new
>>>> language versions. This is a formal process and it does not involve the
>>>> voting of people. What it does involve is the existence of languages
>>>> recognised in the ISO-639-3. As such Norwegian, or the no /nor code is
>>>> considered a macro-language and does not qualify for a new project.
>>>>
>>>> It is explicitly understood that by no.wikipedia.org we expect it to
>> be
>>>> Bokmal.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>      GerardM
>>>>
>>>> http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Portal:No
>>>>
>>>> 2005/4/25 Bjarte Sørensen<[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of you would be aware of some of the discussions that have
>>> occurred
>>>>> around Wikipedia in the Norwegian languages. Since the last round of
>>>>> discussions on this list, there has been a lot of internal debate, as
>>>>> well as what seems to be a fairly widely accepted agreement following
>>>>> voting.
>>>>>
>>>>> This e-mail intends to, after a brief recap on Norwegian language and
>>>>> wikipedia issues, take those interested through the latest
>> development
>>>>> and will stake out the road ahead. It is also intended to inform the
>>>>> international community about the current agreement on no.wikipedia,
>> so
>>>>> as to prevent misunderstandings in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, we will mention an unfortunate reaction to the vote by a
>> small
>>>>> number of users at the Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål (no:) wikipedia who
>>> want
>>>>> to disregard the result of the voting and are planning to create a
>>>>> _third_ Norwegian wikipedia with the sole mission of mixing the
>>> contents
>>>>> of the two current Norwegian versions.
>>>>>
>>>>> == A short language history of Norway ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Spoken Norwegian ("norsk") (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "no") is in a
>> fairly
>>>>> unique situation compared to most other languages of the world in
>> that
>>>>> it has two widely accepted written standards, Bokmål (ISO 639-2
>> alpha-2
>>>>> code "nb") and Nynorsk (ISO 639-2 alpha-2 code "nn"). By national
>>>>> legislation they are both regarded as official written forms of
>>>>> Norwegian. In addition, many people still make a distinction between
>>>>> Bokmål and its precursor which still is in use, Riksmål.
>>>>>
>>>>> Briefly speaking, Bokmål and Riksmål are descendants of the Danish
>>>>> written language. Until the 1800s, Danish was the only widely used
>>>>> written language in Norway as a result of four centuries of union
>> with
>>>>> Denmark. With increasing independence came a wish to norwegianise the
>>>>> Danish standard, with Knud Knudsen at the forefront for changing
>> parts
>>>>> of the vocabulary and orthographics. Thus, Riksmål, and later Bokmål,
>>>>> resulted. These forms together are today probably used by about 90%
>> of
>>>>> Norway's population, or somewhere around 3,500,000 people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Parallel to this development, a new written standard was created by
>>> Ivar
>>>>> Aasen. He travelled extensively throughout Norway, and based his new
>>>>> language, landsmål, on the grammar and vocabulary of dialect samples
>>>>> from around the country. This was later renamed Nynorsk. Modern
>> Nynorsk
>>>>> differs significantly from modern Bokmål, and may be linguistically
>>>>> looked upon as as different (or as similar if you like) as Swedish is
>>> to
>>>>> Danish. For English or Dutch/German speakers, the differences may be
>>>>> likened to those between (Lowland) Scots and English or Low German
>> and
>>>>> Dutch. Today it is estimated that about 500,000-600,000 people have
>>>>> Nynorsk as their first written language.
>>>>>
>>>>> More information about the Norwegian language history can be found in
>>>>> English, German, French, Spanish or Portuguese on the website of the
>>>>> Norwegian Language Council:
>>>>> http://www.sprakrad.no/templates/Page.aspx?id=653
>>>>>
>>>>> == A short history of Wikipedia in Norwegian ==
>>>>>
>>>>> The first Norwegian wikipedia started 26 November 2001 on the
>> subdomain
>>>>> no.wikipedia.org. As most wikipedias, its contributor and article
>>> count
>>>>> started really picking up around the end of 2003. At the time, it
>>>>> accepted all written standards of Norwegian, although the amount of
>>>>> Nynorsk was minimal. There were already several debates about the
>>>>> feasibilty and appropriateness of keeping the two languages united on
>>>>> one Wikipedia. On 31 July 2004 a Wikipedia for Nynorsk was created.
>>>>>
>>>>> The creation of nn:, however, split the community at no: wikipedia.
>>> Many
>>>>> felt that given that Nynorsk now had its own wikipedia, no: should
>>>>> become a Bokmål/Riksmål Wikipedia only. Others disapproved and
>> claimed
>>>>> that there was no need to change and that it should continue its
>>>>> language policy of accepting all and keep its interwiki link name of
>>>>> "Norsk".
>>>>>
>>>>> Nynorsk Wikipedia soon proved a success, as it within the next few
>>>>> months gathered several people who had felt uncomfortable in the
>>>>> (mainly) Bokmål environment at no:. The name displayed in interwiki
>>>>> links became "Norsk (nynorsk)" (languages are not spelt with upper
>> case
>>>>> in Norwegian). To date it continues to be one of the fastest growing
>>>>> wikipedias, with a steady article increase, now at over 6000 articles
>>>>> and>50 editors with more than 10 edits since arrival.
>>>>>
>>>>> == Votes ==
>>>>>
>>>>> The issue of no:'s language policy has come up time and again, and a
>>>>> vote was held in March ([[:no:Wikipedia:Målform]]) as to which policy
>>> to
>>>>> adapt. Independent of the method of the tally (whether or not to
>>> include
>>>>> new contributors etc.) there was a majority for switching to a
>>>>> Bokmål/Riksmål only language policy (50% for Bokmål/Riksmål, 43.2%
>> for
>>>>> Bokmål/Riksmål/Nynorsk/Høgnorsk, and 6.8% for the official variants
>>>>> Bokmål/Nynorsk only).
>>>>>
>>>>> Following this result, there is now going to be a vote on which
>>>>> interwiki link name will most appropriately reflect the current
>>> language
>>>>> policy of no:. The result of this vote will most likely be either
>>> "Norsk
>>>>> (bokmål)" or "Norsk (bokmål/riksmål)".
>>>>>
>>>>> Understandably, there has also been a debate as to whether the
>>> subdomain
>>>>> should change from "no" to "nb", as this is the correct
>> representation
>>>>> of Bokmål according to ISO 639-2. However, there is some resentment
>>>>> towards such a move and currently a general acceptance in letting the
>>>>> Bokmål wikipedia stay at "no". The alternative some have suggested
>> is a
>>>>> server-side redirect from "no" to "nb", in the same way that "nb"
>> today
>>>>> is a server-side redirect to the equivalent page on "no".
>>>>>
>>>>> == Summary of the problem ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, a small group of users (who all write Bokmål/Riksmål)
>>> are
>>>>> ignoring the results from the vote, and are claiming they want to
>>>>> re-establish a wikipedia for all written standards of Norwegian. They
>>>>> claim they have been in touch with people centrally in Wikimedia
>>>>> (developers? stewards?) and that they have so far received positive
>>>>> comments. With this email, we would like to state the fact that there
>>>>> have been no official decisions about creating a third Norwegian
>>>>> wikipedia containing both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it is merely an
>>> unofficial
>>>>> initiative from a small group of users which started a sign-on list
>> at
>>>>> [[:no:Bruker:Norsk_Wikipedia]]. A spontaneous list with signatures
>>>>> against this activity was immediately created at
>>>>> [[:no:Wikipedia-diskusjon:Fellesnorsk]]. The process of creating a
>>> third
>>>>> Norwegian wikipedia has not gone through a voting process in any of
>> the
>>>>> two existing Norwegian wikipedias (no: and nn:) and can not be
>>>>> considered as a decision by the Norwegian Wikipedia community.
>>>>>
>>>>> We believe the creation of a third wikipedia under the Wikimedia
>>>>> foundation would have a serious and unfortunate impact on the
>> existing
>>>>> wikipedias in Norwegian, no: and nn:, and would undermine Wikipedia's
>>>>> reputation in Norway. This being said, we are all for extensive co-
>>>>> operation between the four Scandinavian language wikipedias
>> (including
>>>>> Swedish and Danish), as evident by the recent creation of
>>>>> [[:meta:Skanwiki]], the Scandinavian meta-pages, and the use of
>>> featured
>>>>> articles from neighbour wikipedias.
>>>>>
>>>>> == Conclusion ==
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully, this letter will help people better understand the
>>>>> complicated language situation of the Norwegian Wikipedia community,
>> so
>>>>> as to give a background on which discussion can take place on this
>> list
>>>>> in the future, such as the inevitable debate following a possible
>>>>> request for a re-establishment of the common (and third!) Norwegian
>>>>> Wikipedia.
>>>>>
>>>>> > From the community of no.wikipedia.org and nn.wikipedia.org,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bjarte Sørensen [[:meta:User:BjarteSorensen]]
>> (Administrator/bureaucrat
>>>> on
>>>>> nn:)
>>>>> Lars Alvik [[:no:User:Profoss]] (Administrator/bureaucrat on no:)
>>>>> Øyvind A. Holm [[:no:User:Sunny256]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Onar Vikingstad [[:no:User:Vikingstad]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Jon Harald Søby [[:no:User:Jhs]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Chris Nyborg [[:no:User:Cnyborg]] (Administrator on no:)
>>>>> Guttorm Flatabø [[:no:User:Dittaeva]] (Administrator on nn:)
>>>>> Gunleiv Hadland [[:meta:User:Gunnernett]] (Administrator on nn:)
>>>>> Jarle Fagerheim [[:nn:User:Jarle]] (Administrator on nn:)
>>>>> Øyvind Jo Heimdal Eik [[:en:User:Pladask]] (Administrator on nn: and
>>> no:)
>>>>> Kristian André Gallis [[:nn:User:Kristaga]]
>>>>> Vegard Wærp [[:no:User:Vegardw]]
>>>>> Nina Aldin Thune [[:no:User:Nina]]
>>>>> Thor-Rune Hansen [[:no:User:ThorRune]]
>>>>> Claes Tande [[:no:User:Ctande]]
>>>>> Arnt-Erik Krokaa [[:no:User:AEK]]
>>>>> Rune Sattler [[:no:User:Shauni]]
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>
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