Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Rob Church
On 06/11/2007, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Revision: 27267
> Author:   catrope
> Date:     2007-11-06 16:14:24 +0000 (Tue, 06 Nov 2007)
>
> Log Message:
> -----------
> APIEDIT BRANCH MERGE: Making redirect creation on page move optional.

This should not be an option which we encourage the use of; moving
pages without updating redirects breaks incoming links from all other
sources, and is not a particularly clever idea for any web site.


Rob Church

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Aryeh Gregor
On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This should not be an option which we encourage the use of; moving
> pages without updating redirects breaks incoming links from all other
> sources, and is not a particularly clever idea for any web site.

It's not exposed in the normal interface, of course.  I'm not sure why
it's wanted for the API, though.

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Rob Church
On 06/11/2007, Simetrical <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This should not be an option which we encourage the use of; moving
> > pages without updating redirects breaks incoming links from all other
> > sources, and is not a particularly clever idea for any web site.
>
> It's not exposed in the normal interface, of course.  I'm not sure why
> it's wanted for the API, though.

My concern is that if it's available in the backend, then it's only a
matter of time before some bright spark implements it in the UI as a
"trivial enhancement".


Rob Church

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Jim R. Wilson
> My concern is that if it's available in the backend, then it's only a
> matter of time before some bright spark implements it in the UI as a
> "trivial enhancement".

Hmmm, maybe a checkbox next to Minor and Watch? ;)

-- Jim R. Wilson (jimbojw)

On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 06/11/2007, Simetrical <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > This should not be an option which we encourage the use of; moving
> > > pages without updating redirects breaks incoming links from all other
> > > sources, and is not a particularly clever idea for any web site.
> >
> > It's not exposed in the normal interface, of course.  I'm not sure why
> > it's wanted for the API, though.
>
> My concern is that if it's available in the backend, then it's only a
> matter of time before some bright spark implements it in the UI as a
> "trivial enhancement".
>
>
> Rob Church
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Aryeh Gregor
In reply to this post by Rob Church
On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My concern is that if it's available in the backend, then it's only a
> matter of time before some bright spark implements it in the UI as a
> "trivial enhancement".

That can be addressed when it happens, if there's some useful reason
for this functionality to exist at all.  (Incidentally, it looks like
that code could use some refactoring to reduce duplication, but that's
neither here nor there.)

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Roan Kattouw
In reply to this post by Jim R. Wilson

> On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> On 06/11/2007, Simetrical <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> On 11/6/07, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>      
>>>> This should not be an option which we encourage the use of; moving
>>>> pages without updating redirects breaks incoming links from all other
>>>> sources, and is not a particularly clever idea for any web site.
>>>>        
>>> It's not exposed in the normal interface, of course.  I'm not sure why
>>> it's wanted for the API, though.
>>>      
>> My concern is that if it's available in the backend, then it's only a
>> matter of time before some bright spark implements it in the UI as a
>> "trivial enhancement".
>>
>>
>> Rob Church
>>    
> Hmmm, maybe a checkbox next to Minor and Watch? ;)
>
> -- Jim R. Wilson (jimbojw)
>  
I think this feature can be useful when mass-moving internally-used
stuff (subpages, templates, etc.). Deleting the created redirects
afterwards would result not only in twice as many requests, but also in
adding entries to the page, revision and pagelinks tables which are
removed almost immediately after. Of course, redirect suppression is
*not* default behavior, as it's undesirable in many cases.

I agree that it shouldn't be recommended for pages that someone could
link to, but for other pages (portal subpages like [[w:Portal:Visual
Arts/RelatedPortals]], template subpages, misspelled titles like "List
of kings of Denmrak") it's my opinion that users should be allowed to
suppress redirect creation from the UI. Of course this should be
accompanied (both in the UI and in the API usage and docs) by a lot of
warning signs recommending against real articles being moved this way,
urging the user to check whatlinkshere for the deleted redirect and
remind them about external pages that might link to their wiki.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Aryeh Gregor
On 11/6/07, Roan Kattouw <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think this feature can be useful when mass-moving internally-used
> stuff (subpages, templates, etc.).

Why don't you just leave the redirects?  Is it going to hurt anything?
 Maybe someone remembers the old page name and types it in manually,
links or not, and is puzzled when it shows up nothing (and doesn't
think to check the move log, since after all, moves leave redirects,
right?).

I don't see why this is useful functionality.

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Raimond Spekking-2
Simetrical schrieb:
>
> I don't see why this is useful functionality.

E.g. for import of articles. de.wp uses Special:Import to import
articles from different languages. After the import it is mostly
necessary to move the imported article to a German article name.

The redirect is completely useless and has to be deleted. I would be
glad if we could suppress the redirect at time of moving.

Raymond.


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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Aryeh Gregor
On 11/7/07, Raimond Spekking <[hidden email]> wrote:
> E.g. for import of articles. de.wp uses Special:Import to import
> articles from different languages. After the import it is mostly
> necessary to move the imported article to a German article name.
>
> The redirect is completely useless and has to be deleted. I would be
> glad if we could suppress the redirect at time of moving.

This strikes me as a situation where the best thing to do would be to
fix Special:Import.  Besides, nobody's talking about exposing this
through the user interface at the moment.

To paraphrase something Brion once said, deleting redirects is
normally a big "screw you" to third parties.  If really nobody can
really come up with any reasonable use-case for this, I would say this
would best be reverted.

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Raimond Spekking-2
Simetrical schrieb:
>
> This strikes me as a situation where the best thing to do would be to
> fix Special:Import.  

I tried it with r24237 but was reverted by Brion with r24250 :-(

> Besides, nobody's talking about exposing this
> through the user interface at the moment.

I thought about it but know the WONTFIX bug. *hides*

> To paraphrase something Brion once said, deleting redirects is
> normally a big "screw you" to third parties.  If really nobody can
> really come up with any reasonable use-case for this, I would say this
> would best be reverted.

I like the idea to suppress redirects as an option (by default off) ...
Just my 2 cents :)

Raymond.


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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Platonides
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Simetrical wrote:

> On 11/6/07, Roan Kattouw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I think this feature can be useful when mass-moving internally-used
>> stuff (subpages, templates, etc.).
>
> Why don't you just leave the redirects?  Is it going to hurt anything?
>  Maybe someone remembers the old page name and types it in manually,
> links or not, and is puzzled when it shows up nothing (and doesn't
> think to check the move log, since after all, moves leave redirects,
> right?).
>
> I don't see why this is useful functionality.

Think in a bot autoreverting moves where the target page name contains
"on wheels" (and a bot with admins powers to delete the redirect pages
is a heresy on some wikis).
You obviously not want the redirect when randomvandal redirects your
userpage to User:Evil_admin
(as examples, see
http://es.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Especial%3ALog&type=move&user=Platonides 
7 oct)


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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Aryeh Gregor
On 11/13/07, Platonides <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Think in a bot autoreverting moves where the target page name contains
> "on wheels" (and a bot with admins powers to delete the redirect pages
> is a heresy on some wikis).
> You obviously not want the redirect when randomvandal redirects your
> userpage to User:Evil_admin
> (as examples, see
> http://es.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Especial%3ALog&type=move&user=Platonides
> 7 oct)

This is a reasonable use case, I agree (reverting page-move
vandalism).  It seems reasonable to expose to bots, I guess.

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Roan Kattouw
Simetrical schreef:
> This is a reasonable use case, I agree (reverting page-move
> vandalism).  It seems reasonable to expose to bots, I guess.
>
Maybe create a permission like 'surpressredir' for this?

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: [MediaWiki-CVS] SVN: [27267] trunk/phase3/includes/Title.php

Roan Kattouw
In reply to this post by Aryeh Gregor
Simetrical schreef:
> This is a reasonable use case, I agree (reverting page-move
> vandalism).  It seems reasonable to expose to bots, I guess.
>  
I've added the suppressredirect right in r27774 and r27775 for sysops
and bots.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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