Re: Re: Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz

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Re: Re: Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz

Delphine Ménard
On 1/5/06, Urs Wäfler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Die Zeile ist wahrscheinlich keineswegs als Diskriminierung zu verstehen. Es ist Respekt >gegenüber all jener Personen, welche die englische Sprache nicht verstehen. Mich dünkt >es ist eher das Gegenteil.
> Ich achte all jene Schweizer Bürger, welche einzig ihre Muttersprache sprechen und >verstehen. Es könnte womöglich etwas respektlos sein, wenn man eine Wikimidia >Schweiz gründen will, wobei einige Texte der Einstiegsseite bisweilen jedoch einzig in >englischer Sprache zu lesen sind. Ein relativ grosser Teil der Schweizer Bevölkerung wird >zurzeit vom freien Wissen ausgeschlossen. Sie haben einzig Zugang, sobald die >Einstiegsseite von Wikimedia Schweiz klar strukturiert und in deutscher Sprache >geschrieben steht.


And it is respect towards all of those who don't speak German to use
English as a preferred language.

Nando Manuel and Michael have answered better than I would, but let me
say one thing. I hereby thank all of those who have made the effort to
keep debates and discussions in English, so as to allow all those
interested to participate. I would find it very sad that Wikimedia CH,
which is, if any, one of the most interesting chapter when it comes to
multilingualism, kept Swiss citizens away just because they *don't*
speak German.

Après tout, on aurait pu le faire en français, o forse en italiano? Ma
ma se l'avessimo fatto in italiano o in francese, peut-être que tu
n'aurais rien compris ? :-)

And oh, but wait...you can't be that much against English, denn Deine
Bitte an das Board wegen der Löschung Deines Lebenslaufes war auf
Englisch geschrieben. Oder habe ich das falsch gelesen?

Anyway, die Dokumente wurden von unseren Archiv gelöscht. Für was
Google oder Gmane noch im Cache oder Archiv haben kann ich nichts tun.

A bientôt,

Delphine
(who's striving to speak all the official languages of Switzerland.
Anyone to teach me Alemanisch? ;-) )
--
~notafish
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Re: Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz

Manuel Schneider [Everything Open]
> Anyone to teach me Alemanisch? ;-) )
gärn ;-)

Gruessly,

Manuel
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All-Things-Open Projektgruppe

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Re: Re: Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz

Gatto Nero
In reply to this post by Delphine Ménard
2006/1/6, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]>:

> And it is respect towards all of those who don't speak German to use
> English as a preferred language.
>
> Nando Manuel and Michael have answered better than I would, but let me
> say one thing. I hereby thank all of those who have made the effort to
> keep debates and discussions in English, so as to allow all those
> interested to participate. I would find it very sad that Wikimedia CH,
> which is, if any, one of the most interesting chapter when it comes to
> multilingualism, kept Swiss citizens away just because they *don't*
> speak German.

Purtroppo, la popolazione svizzero-tedesca - se non mi sbaglio, ma io
in Geografia sono sempre stato negato - è di numero maggiore rispetto
a quella francese, a quella italiana e alla romancia.
Che vanno in quest'ordine di diffusione, per l'appunto: prima i
tedeschi, poi i francesi, poi quelli italiani e infine i romanci.
Di parlanti in lingua italiana, su Wikimedia CH, chi c'è? Ilario, e io
come supporter. E poi ci sei tu, Delphine :D

The problem is - right - "is it fair to use only German, in WikimediaCH?".
No, it's unfair. People should force themselves to write in English,
just to be understandable even by all those people who don't know
german, french, italian or... roman (i don't know the name of the
language).
This doesn't mean that people must NOT speak in their native language,
but only that there should be ALWAYS a continous effort in writing in
english (even when - as in my case - the written english is totally
awful). That mean: you're not able to express yourself in english? Ok,
write in your native language. Someone else will translate it for you.
But what that means (again)? That means that no one should take
advantage of this help, writing in their native language even if they
know english, cause "somebody else will translate it for me". And that
means also that no one should make a "political affair" over "speaking
their own language": go away, nationalism!

(naturally, the horrible way I wrote in english, and all the mistakes
I made, are dued by my voluntee to demonstrate the effort needed. It's
not cause I'm not that good in english. Right. Trust me. I'm serious.
Really. Ok? :D )

an italian Gatto Nero who's always trying to be useful, sometime
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Re: Re: Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz

Patrick Kenel
In reply to this post by Delphine Ménard

@ gatto nero: Ciao, caro svizzero-calabrese, anch'io so espremirmi abbastanza bene in italiano! Allora, secondo me, l'italianità è meglio rappresentata qui che la francofonità!

It seems that the language discussion provoked by Urs Wäfler's unfortunate comment last week is still going on here and therefore I'd like to add a little differentiation. While I'm able to speak all the Swiss national languages fluently (except Romansh, which I mostly understand), I know that most of my co-citizens aren't. However, a plurilingual society like we have in Switzerland doesn't necessarily need a lingua franca for everyday conversations. Schools teach and still have to teach one national foreign language. Therefore, people should be able to express themselves at least a little in another national language. That's a point I really hold on to because I find it awful to see the unique opportunity that this country offers (uniting three of Europe's major linguistic areas) being threatened by the globalising force of the Anglo-American language.

That doesn't mean that I'm opposed to the use of English here, because to share informations over several language barriers requires some neutral tongue. We can't stress German here because that would disadvantage French and Italian speakers. Wikipedia is a very international project and the only lingua franca imaginable is, of course, English. OK, this and many other things has been stated already by others. I only wanted to include the importance of the use of a national language if possible whenever it comes to cross the famous "Röstigraben" (or will it soon be called "Suppengraben" ??) I have been inspired by a recent article by Urs Altermatt from Fribourg University, an expert in pluricultural societies, entitled: "Wieviel Englisch braucht die Schweiz?" (NZZ am Sonntag, 1.1.2006)

Grüessli, salutations, saluti!

Patrick K.


From:  "Claudio M." <[hidden email]>
Reply-To:  Mailing list for Wikimedia Swizerland <[hidden email]>
To:  Mailing list for Wikimedia Swizerland <[hidden email]>
Subject:  Re: Re: [Wikimediach-l] Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz
Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:07:15 +0100

>2006/1/6, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]>:
>
> > And it is respect towards all of those who don't speak German to use
> > English as a preferred language.
> >
> > Nando Manuel and Michael have answered better than I would, but let me
> > say one thing. I hereby thank all of those who have made the effort to
> > keep debates and discussions in English, so as to allow all those
> > interested to participate. I would find it very sad that Wikimedia CH,
> > which is, if any, one of the most interesting chapter when it comes to
> > multilingualism, kept Swiss citizens away just because they *don't*
> > speak German.
>
>Purtroppo, la popolazione svizzero-tedesca - se non mi sbaglio, ma io
>in Geografia sono sempre stato negato - è di numero maggiore rispetto
>a quella francese, a quella italiana e alla romancia.
>Che vanno in quest'ordine di diffusione, per l'appunto: prima i
>tedeschi, poi i francesi, poi quelli italiani e infine i romanci.
>Di parlanti in lingua italiana, su Wikimedia CH, chi c'è? Ilario, e io
>come supporter. E poi ci sei tu, Delphine :D
>
>The problem is - right - "is it fair to use only German, in WikimediaCH?".
>No, it's unfair. People should force themselves to write in English,
>just to be understandable even by all those people who don't know
>german, french, italian or... roman (i don't know the name of the
>language).
>This doesn't mean that people must NOT speak in their native language,
>but only that there should be ALWAYS a continous effort in writing in
>english (even when - as in my case - the written english is totally
>awful). That mean: you're not able to express yourself in english? Ok,
>write in your native language. Someone else will translate it for you.
>But what that means (again)? That means that no one should take
>advantage of this help, writing in their native language even if they
>know english, cause "somebody else will translate it for me". And that
>means also that no one should make a "political affair" over "speaking
>their own language": go away, nationalism!
>
>(naturally, the horrible way I wrote in english, and all the mistakes
>I made, are dued by my voluntee to demonstrate the effort needed. It's
>not cause I'm not that good in english. Right. Trust me. I'm serious.
>Really. Ok? :D )
>
>an italian Gatto Nero who's always trying to be useful, sometime
>_______________________________________________
>Wikimediach-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l

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Re: Wikiquette bei Wikimedia Schweiz

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by Gatto Nero
Sorry Claudio,
user in italian are more than you think (personally I can count other
two). For the tessiners there are no problems to use german, but there
are other persons who don't understand deutsch (personally I have some
problems, but I can't read it).

The problem are two:
1.other persons in Italy are interested to Wikimedia CH but don't know
german (the knowledge of german is more usual in Tessin)
2.the use of english can be important to attract other members

The Swiss lies in the center of Europe. I hope that could be not only a
geographical position ;)

Ilario

P.S. Sorry, I am answering  late to this e-mail, but I have  not read it
before

Claudio M. wrote:

>2006/1/6, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]>:
>
>  
>
>>And it is respect towards all of those who don't speak German to use
>>English as a preferred language.
>>
>>Nando Manuel and Michael have answered better than I would, but let me
>>say one thing. I hereby thank all of those who have made the effort to
>>keep debates and discussions in English, so as to allow all those
>>interested to participate. I would find it very sad that Wikimedia CH,
>>which is, if any, one of the most interesting chapter when it comes to
>>multilingualism, kept Swiss citizens away just because they *don't*
>>speak German.
>>    
>>
>
>Purtroppo, la popolazione svizzero-tedesca - se non mi sbaglio, ma io
>in Geografia sono sempre stato negato - è di numero maggiore rispetto
>a quella francese, a quella italiana e alla romancia.
>Che vanno in quest'ordine di diffusione, per l'appunto: prima i
>tedeschi, poi i francesi, poi quelli italiani e infine i romanci.
>Di parlanti in lingua italiana, su Wikimedia CH, chi c'è? Ilario, e io
>come supporter. E poi ci sei tu, Delphine :D
>
>
>  
>
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