Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Christopher Wood (Student)
I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on en.wiki
looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
else. There contribs are totally different.

C

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael
Peel
Sent: 17 September 2008 09:27
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)

All,

[[meta:User:MaxSem]] has removed [[meta:User:ScribblewikiLover]] from  
the list of board candidates, saying "rm troll". On  
ScribblewikiLover's talk page he says that "This user is blocked  
because he is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of  
[[:en:User:Chris19910]] and had a few socks blocked on Meta."

I don't know what to say to this... Does anyone know anything more  
about this apparent saga? (presumably he was checkuser'd for a reason?)

Mike

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Sam Korn
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Christopher Wood (Student)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
> Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on en.wiki
> looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
> someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
> else. There contribs are totally different.

But if, as she has said, there are three IP ranges shared, you're have
something more solid.  There may also be other information -- I
haven't done a check myself.  I very much doubt this is a mistake.

--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Christopher Wood (Student)
2008/9/17 Christopher Wood (Student) <[hidden email]>:

> I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
> Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on en.wiki
> looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
> someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
> else. There contribs are totally different.


No, he was a clear match across three IP ranges.


- d.

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Mike Peel
In reply to this post by Christopher Wood (Student)
Could you provide a link to "what Alsion has said on en.wiki"?

Thanks,
Mike

On 17 Sep 2008, at 09:36, Christopher Wood ((Student)) wrote:

> I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
> Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on  
> en.wiki
> looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
> someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
> else. There contribs are totally different.
>
> C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of  
> Michael
> Peel
> Sent: 17 September 2008 09:27
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
>
> All,
>
> [[meta:User:MaxSem]] has removed [[meta:User:ScribblewikiLover]] from
> the list of board candidates, saying "rm troll". On
> ScribblewikiLover's talk page he says that "This user is blocked
> because he is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of
> [[:en:User:Chris19910]] and had a few socks blocked on Meta."
>
> I don't know what to say to this... Does anyone know anything more
> about this apparent saga? (presumably he was checkuser'd for a  
> reason?)
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l


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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Chris Wood-7
Further more to the conversation http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AScribblewikiLover&diff=238981762&oldid=238961908 is what Alison said and makes interesting reading.



> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:27:33 +0100
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
>
> Could you provide a link to "what Alsion has said on en.wiki"?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> On 17 Sep 2008, at 09:36, Christopher Wood ((Student)) wrote:
>
> > I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
> > Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on
> > en.wiki
> > looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
> > someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
> > else. There contribs are totally different.
> >
> > C
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> > Michael
> > Peel
> > Sent: 17 September 2008 09:27
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
> >
> > All,
> >
> > [[meta:User:MaxSem]] has removed [[meta:User:ScribblewikiLover]] from
> > the list of board candidates, saying "rm troll". On
> > ScribblewikiLover's talk page he says that "This user is blocked
> > because he is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of
> > [[:en:User:Chris19910]] and had a few socks blocked on Meta."
> >
> > I don't know what to say to this... Does anyone know anything more
> > about this apparent saga? (presumably he was checkuser'd for a
> > reason?)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l


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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Tom Holden
I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
different issue entirely.)

Tom

2008/9/17 Chris Wood <[hidden email]>:

> Further more to the conversation
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AScribblewikiLover&diff=238981762&oldid=238961908
> is what Alison said and makes interesting reading.
>
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:27:33 +0100
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
>>
>> Could you provide a link to "what Alsion has said on en.wiki"?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 17 Sep 2008, at 09:36, Christopher Wood ((Student)) wrote:
>>
>> > I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
>> > Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on
>> > en.wiki
>> > looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
>> > someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
>> > else. There contribs are totally different.
>> >
>> > C
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>> > Michael
>> > Peel
>> > Sent: 17 September 2008 09:27
>> > To: [hidden email]
>> > Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
>> >
>> > All,
>> >
>> > [[meta:User:MaxSem]] has removed [[meta:User:ScribblewikiLover]] from
>> > the list of board candidates, saying "rm troll". On
>> > ScribblewikiLover's talk page he says that "This user is blocked
>> > because he is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of
>> > [[:en:User:Chris19910]] and had a few socks blocked on Meta."
>> >
>> > I don't know what to say to this... Does anyone know anything more
>> > about this apparent saga? (presumably he was checkuser'd for a
>> > reason?)
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
>> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
>> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
>> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>
> ________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>
>

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

David Gerard-2
2008/9/17 Tom Holden <[hidden email]>:

> I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
> you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
> heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
> disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
> have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
> precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
> different issue entirely.)


Unless we get a zillion of 'em clogging the list, then yeah, leave it
to the voters to have a clue. If they vote for someone playing silly
buggers like this then they get what they deserve.


- d.

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Chris Wood-7
In reply to this post by Christopher Wood (Student)
I agree Tom. I even though there is the potential of having votes fraudulently being cast. I personally dont think that they should be removed for using sock puppets on another project but we should make it clear in the terms of being a candidate that you should not be blocked on any other project or have sock puppets even though this is a widely known policy of no sockpuppets we should make it clear in the rules to avoid any un-necessary legal threats or summonds.

Chris

> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:25:04 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
>
> I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
> you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
> heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
> disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
> have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
> precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
> different issue entirely.)
>
> Tom
>
> 2008/9/17 Chris Wood <[hidden email]>:
> > Further more to the conversation
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AScribblewikiLover&diff=238981762&oldid=238961908
> > is what Alison said and makes interesting reading.
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:27:33 +0100
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
> >>
> >> Could you provide a link to "what Alsion has said on en.wiki"?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> On 17 Sep 2008, at 09:36, Christopher Wood ((Student)) wrote:
> >>
> >> > I saw this too and was in the middle of an email to MaxSem asking why
> >> > Scribblewiki was a sock. Looking through what Alsion has said on
> >> > en.wiki
> >> > looks like it was an unlawful checkuser block anyway. Just because
> >> > someone uses the same IP doesn't make them the same user as someone
> >> > else. There contribs are totally different.
> >> >
> >> > C
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: [hidden email]
> >> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> >> > Michael
> >> > Peel
> >> > Sent: 17 September 2008 09:27
> >> > To: [hidden email]
> >> > Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
> >> >
> >> > All,
> >> >
> >> > [[meta:User:MaxSem]] has removed [[meta:User:ScribblewikiLover]] from
> >> > the list of board candidates, saying "rm troll". On
> >> > ScribblewikiLover's talk page he says that "This user is blocked
> >> > because he is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of
> >> > [[:en:User:Chris19910]] and had a few socks blocked on Meta."
> >> >
> >> > I don't know what to say to this... Does anyone know anything more
> >> > about this apparent saga? (presumably he was checkuser'd for a
> >> > reason?)
> >> >
> >> > Mike
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> >> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> >> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> >> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Get Hotmail on your mobile from Vodafone Try it Now
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia UK mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> > http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Tom Holden
2008/9/17 Tom Holden <[hidden email]>:
> I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
> you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
> heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
> disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
> have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
> precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
> different issue entirely.)

I agree, if the community wants a troll on the board then there should
be a troll on the board. That said, if anyone is to be removed from
the list, it should only be by the unanimous agreement of the election
committee - they were formed in order to deal with this kind of thing,
let's let them do their job.

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Andrew Whitworth-2
In reply to this post by Tom Holden
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Tom Holden <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
> you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
> heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
> disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
> have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
> precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
> different issue entirely.)

Yes. Keep in mind that you guys are a separate legal entity with no
formal ties to the WMF projects, or the users who use them. Consider
this a very firm suggestion that you not tie your membership nor
leadership to actions on any one particular wiki, especially wikis
that you do not own or control. This helps on both ends because it
keeps you independent from decisions/actions made by the WMF or
decisions made by volunteers on the wiki, and it also helps to protect
the wiki from chapters who start to feel a personal ownership over the
projects and attempt to exert undue control over them because of it.

--Andrew Whitworth

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Chris Wood-7
I agree with what is being said, I think that although this user has been blocked by Alison on en and by MaxSem on Meta doesnt mean that this user cant be part of the community. Like you say it is a totally different part of the chapter and has nothing what soever to do with WMF and anything that happens on there is what happens there and what happens on this chapter is up to the Board and whoever to decide on this policy. Is this not true?
 
Chris

> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:10:47 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] ScribblewikiLove(r)
>
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Tom Holden <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
> > you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
> > heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
> > disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
> > have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
> > precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
> > different issue entirely.)
>
> Yes. Keep in mind that you guys are a separate legal entity with no
> formal ties to the WMF projects, or the users who use them. Consider
> this a very firm suggestion that you not tie your membership nor
> leadership to actions on any one particular wiki, especially wikis
> that you do not own or control. This helps on both ends because it
> keeps you independent from decisions/actions made by the WMF or
> decisions made by volunteers on the wiki, and it also helps to protect
> the wiki from chapters who start to feel a personal ownership over the
> projects and attempt to exert undue control over them because of it.
>
> --Andrew Whitworth
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l



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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

David Gerard-2
2008/9/17 Chris Wood <[hidden email]>:

> I agree with what is being said, I think that although this user has been
> blocked by Alison on en and by MaxSem on Meta doesnt mean that this user
> cant be part of the community. Like you say it is a totally different part
> of the chapter and has nothing what soever to do with WMF and anything that
> happens on there is what happens there and what happens on this chapter is
> up to the Board and whoever to decide on this policy. Is this not true?


Indeed. However, laying out a welcome mat for proven malicious
dickheads strikes me as unlikely to work out wonderfully. Your mileage
may vary.


- d.

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Thomas Dalton
> Indeed. However, laying out a welcome mat for proven malicious
> dickheads strikes me as unlikely to work out wonderfully. Your mileage
> may vary.

We're just opening the door, it's up to the voters whether they lay
out a welcome mat. Personally, I have faith in the UK community.

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
At 12:31 +0100 17/9/08, David Gerard wrote:

>2008/9/17 Tom Holden <[hidden email]>:
>
>>  I would be very very wary about removing people from the list even if
>>  you have definite proof that they've committed some rather more
>>  heinous sin than using a sock. If that's an issue that should
>>  disqualify people from standing, we have to trust that the voters will
>>  have the sense to realise this. (Obviously we want to take reasonable
>>  precautions against both a user and their sock voting, but that's a
>>  different issue entirely.)
>
>
>Unless we get a zillion of 'em clogging the list, then yeah, leave it
>to the voters to have a clue. If they vote for someone playing silly
>buggers like this then they get what they deserve.
>
>- d.


I am concerned about that implied definition of "voters", and the
"they get what they deserve" throw away.

Wikimedia UK is meant to be open and inclusive (please correct me if I err).

Hence, the ins and out of Wikimedia, Wikipedia, WMF, ARBCOM,
checkuser, Commons etc, etc may mean very little to a diligent editor
who works away at articles from time to time.

Wikimedia UK should involve everybody, not just the hardened old
timers, admins, and the cognicenti.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[hidden email]///

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
> I am concerned about that implied definition of "voters", and the
> "they get what they deserve" throw away.

I think it's more "in the unlikely event that people go crazy and vote
for this person, they get what they deserve". I, and I think most
people, expect the community to vote sensibly.

> Wikimedia UK is meant to be open and inclusive (please correct me if I err).
>
> Hence, the ins and out of Wikimedia, Wikipedia, WMF, ARBCOM,
> checkuser, Commons etc, etc may mean very little to a diligent editor
> who works away at articles from time to time.
>
> Wikimedia UK should involve everybody, not just the hardened old
> timers, admins, and the cognicenti.

Indeed, which is why we need to make sure voters know what's going on.
Perhaps the election committee should make a brief statement on this
user's candidate statement and questions section explaining that
they've been blocked.

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Katie Chan
This (a banned editor etc.) standing is not without precedence. This
year WMF's Board election had one candidate which is permanently banned
on the English Wikipedia. (There is the obvious difference he was up
front from the start that he was banned on en.wp, and that he isn't
actually banned on meta.) The election committee likewise decided at the
time that it wasn't a good idea to retroactively disqualify someone that
had met the candidate criteria already set out. I don't immediately
recall whether in hindsight we would have set out better candidate
requirement to have prevented him from standing, although I don't think
so, along with similar reasons already stated on this thread regarding
it being the community's job, and not the committee to decide who they
want on the board.

While I'm writing this, as information for potential voters in this
election reading this email list, I would like to state publicly for the
reasons including but not limited to the topics of this thread, I would
not be willing to serve on the board of a company intending to be the UK
Chapter of WMF with the person controlling the account
meta:User:ScribblewikiLover. So, either vote for him/her, or me, but not
both as it would be wasting your time. :)

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine


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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Gordon Joly
At 00:04 +0100 18/9/08, Kwan Ting Chan wrote:

>Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
>protocol="application/pgp-signature";
>boundary="=-uI0e5/bHxLfcrIfRDOSO"
>
>This (a banned editor etc.) standing is not without precedence. This
>year WMF's Board election had one candidate which is permanently banned
>on the English Wikipedia. (There is the obvious difference he was up
>front from the start that he was banned on en.wp, and that he isn't
>actually banned on meta.) The election committee likewise decided at the
>time that it wasn't a good idea to retroactively disqualify someone that
>had met the candidate criteria already set out. I don't immediately
>recall whether in hindsight we would have set out better candidate
>requirement to have prevented him from standing, although I don't think
>so, along with similar reasons already stated on this thread regarding
>it being the community's job, and not the committee to decide who they
>want on the board.
>
>While I'm writing this, as information for potential voters in this
>election reading this email list, I would like to state publicly for the
>reasons including but not limited to the topics of this thread, I would
>not be willing to serve on the board of a company intending to be the UK
>Chapter of WMF with the person controlling the account
>meta:User:ScribblewikiLover. So, either vote for him/her, or me, but not
>both as it would be wasting your time. :)
>
>KTC
>

Is it a condition of placing votes that you have to read this email list?

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[hidden email]///

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Katie Chan
On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 09:16 +0100, Gordon Joly wrote:

>
> Is it a condition of placing votes that you have to read this email list?
>
> Gordo
>

Not as far as I know / I bloody hope not.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine

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Re: ScribblewikiLove(r)

Gordon Joly
At 13:35 +0100 18/9/08, Kwan Ting Chan wrote:

>Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
>protocol="application/pgp-signature";
>boundary="=-0nQz44WqCyEPJpI7Qcnj"
>
>On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 09:16 +0100, Gordon Joly wrote:
>
>>
>>  Is it a condition of placing votes that you have to read this email list?
>>
>>  Gordo
>>
>
>Not as far as I know / I bloody hope not.
>
>KTC
>

Good.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[hidden email]///

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