Re: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

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Re: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Uschold, Michael F
 Kelly said:
> Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to
> create separate pages for Bill and Idaho?

Josh Said:
You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and
logically nicer to add them in different pages.
--

This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months ago,
the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of the
object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if you
were on Bob's page.

This was a major design decision in the first release.  One that I found
that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool.

Has this now changed?  If so, I think it is a great idea. High priority
should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want
anytime anywhere.   After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store,
there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any
particular wiki page.

Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should not
be terribly relevant.

Or those are my current thoughts. Perhaps there are tradeoffs that I'm
not aware of.

Michael

==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
[hidden email]  
==========================

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-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 3:56 AM
To: Kelly Jones
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic
Mediawikipage?

Hi Kelly,

i am not a smw developer, but i hope i can help too.

> I'm writing a Semantic Mediawiki page about Bob, and want to say:
>
> Bob's brother, Bill, lives in Idaho, which borders Wyoming, and is
> famous for its potatoes.
>
> The semantic triples I'm modeling:
>
> Bob has_brother Bill
> Bill lives_in Idaho
> Idaho famous_for potatoes
> Idaho borders Wyoming
>
> Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to
> create separate pages for Bill and Idaho?

You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and
logically nicer to add them in different pages.

>
> If I have to create pages for Bill and Idaho, is there any way I can
> get Semantic Mediawiki to create those pages for me? (or edit the
> pages if they already exist to include these new relations?)

If you have the Page Bob and you add [[has_brother::Bill]] a link for
Bob will occur in the wikitext after saving the page. You can now click
this page and edit directly the properties and relations for Bill. the
same will happen for Idaho and potatoes and Wyoming.

hope this helps

josh

>
> --
> We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying
> to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to
> new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.
>
> _______________________________________________
> swikig mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig

--
--------------------------------
joshua bacher
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Deutscher Platz 6
04103 LEIPZIG
Germany
web: http://bacher.bash-it.de
--------------------------------

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Re: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Reini Urban
2007/4/26, Uschold, Michael F <[hidden email]>:

>  Kelly said:
> > Can I model all of these relations on Bob's page, or do I need to
> > create separate pages for Bill and Idaho?
>
> Josh Said:
> You can write them all in one page but i think it is cleaner and
> logically nicer to add them in different pages.
> --
>
> This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months ago,
> the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of the
> object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if you
> were on Bob's page.
>
> This was a major design decision in the first release.  One that I found
> that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool.
>
> Has this now changed?  If so, I think it is a great idea. High priority
> should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want
> anytime anywhere.   After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store,
> there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any
> particular wiki page.

But the first part of the triple, the subject, should be always the page
title for consistency.
You want to reason about pages as subjects, not about any subjects.

Otherwise you'll easily get contradictions and not overviewable
hierarchies, which you cannot reason about them anymore because of
increased complexity. Esp with php alone.

> Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should not
> be terribly relevant.

It is consistency-wise.

> Or those are my current thoughts. Perhaps there are tradeoffs that I'm
> not aware of.
--
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/              http://murbreak.at/
http://spacemovie.mur.at/   http://helsinki.at/

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Re: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Daniel Schwabe
In reply to this post by Uschold, Michael F
On 26/4/2007 14:02, Uschold, Michael F wrote:

> ...
>
> This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months ago,
> the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of the
> object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if you
> were on Bob's page.
>
> This was a major design decision in the first release.  One that I found
> that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the tool.
>
> Has this now changed?  If so, I think it is a great idea. High priority
> should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you want
> anytime anywhere.   After all, the tuples sit in a common triple store,
> there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any
> particular wiki page.
>
> Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should not
> be terribly relevant.
>  

To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what you have in
mind when you think of a "wiki page"?
Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
"thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an attribution
(a triple) to this page - should I interpret that all triples have the
page as subject, which is a resource in some sense, and the meaning is
whatever you assign to these triples?
Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of concepts -
then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some discourse,
or relative to some conceptualization schema?
I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and scenarios)
you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?

Cheers,
Daniel
---
Daniel Schwabe                          Dept. de Informatica, PUC-Rio
Tel:+55-21-3527 1500 r. 4356        R. M. de S. Vicente, 225
Fax: +55-21-3527 1530                   Rio de Janeiro, RJ 22453-900, Brasil
http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/~dschwabe



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Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki

Uschold, Michael F
See inline comments  


==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
[hidden email]  
==========================

----------------------------------------------------
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-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Schwabe [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:19 AM
To: Uschold, Michael F
Cc: [hidden email]; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H; Blanchard, Duane L;
[hidden email]; Murray, William R;
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic
Mediawikipage?

On 26/4/2007 14:02, Uschold, Michael F wrote:
> ...
>
> This must be new, when I looked into the semantic media wiki months
> ago, the only things you could say on a web page are attributions of
> the object of the web page. So you could not say Bill is in Idaho, if
> you were on Bob's page.
>
> This was a major design decision in the first release.  One that I
> found that to be a major limitation, so I stopped trying to use the
tool.
>
> Has this now changed?  If so, I think it is a great idea. High
> priority should be placed on making it easy to create any triples you
want
> anytime anywhere.   After all, the tuples sit in a common triple
store,
> there is no reason for them to be strongly associated with any
> particular wiki page.
>
> Where you are and what you are doing when you create a triple should
> not be terribly relevant.
>  

To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what you have in
mind when you think of a "wiki page"?

MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like
say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the
wiki concept: Idaho.
--

Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
"thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an attribution
(a triple) to this page -
should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, which is a
resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you assign to these
triples?


MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That
is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject
explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only really has
doubles there explicitly, not triples.

This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that relates to
something else.
--

Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of concepts -
then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some discourse,
or relative to some conceptualization schema?
I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and scenarios)
you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?

MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an
instance of some class.
So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person.  On that
page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in
Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also
mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho
borders on Montana.  So from the web page, I want to be able to create
Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts.  Then I want to select each of them,
and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn
and set that relationship between these two concepts.  

Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see it.
I want the tool to take care of all that for me.

Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and Montana are say,
regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**.  

** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an
associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.


Cheers,
Daniel
---
Daniel Schwabe                          Dept. de Informatica, PUC-Rio
Tel:+55-21-3527 1500 r. 4356        R. M. de S. Vicente, 225
Fax: +55-21-3527 1530                   Rio de Janeiro, RJ 22453-900,
Brasil
http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/~dschwabe



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Re: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Blanchard, Duane L
See additional inline comments....

Thx,

D

----
Duane L. Blanchard
Computational Linguist
Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology
425.373.2800

To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what you have in
mind when you think of a "wiki page"?

MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like
say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the
wiki concept: Idaho.

DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is
the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in your mind.
--

Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
"thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an attribution
(a triple) to this page -
should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, which is a
resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you assign to these
triples?


MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That
is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject
explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only really has
doubles there explicitly, not triples.

This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that relates to
something else.

DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a concept and
each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject.

DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki
but not to a page.
--

Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of concepts -
then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some discourse,
or relative to some conceptualization schema?
I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and scenarios)
you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?

MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an
instance of some class.
So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person.  On that
page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in
Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also
mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho
borders on Montana.  So from the web page, I want to be able to create
Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts.  Then I want to select each of them,
and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn
and set that relationship between these two concepts.  

Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see it.
I want the tool to take care of all that for me.

Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and Montana are say,
regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**.  

** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an
associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.

DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual
Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't associate it with
any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In SemMedWiki, I
would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change
there.

DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist
without also being pages?

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Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Max Voelkel-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Schwabe
Hi,

  the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples.
  Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere.

  Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons:

  1) (the important reason)

  Make  it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated links
  is  enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but one is
  courious  why,  it's  enough  to  go to page X and look there. There can be no
  ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made.

  2) (the tiny reason)
  It's  easier  to  handle.  Whenever  a user edits a page X, semantic mediawiki
  simply  removes  all  triples  (X,*,*),  parses  the  page and adds triples as
  needed.

A  paper  about  possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the design
space) is here [1]


[1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis


Kind Regards,
Max

--
Max Völkel
http://Xam.de

FZI  Forschungszentrum Informatik          http://www.FZI.de
an der Universität Karlsruhe               telephone: +49-721-9654-0
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14                    fax:       +49-721-9654-959
D-76131 Karlsruhe

Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe.
Vorstand:  Prof.  Dr.-Ing.  Rüdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor,
  Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer.
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus.


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Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Uschold, Michael F
Max tells us that this design decision is intended to make it easier for the user. I have no doubt that many users will find this to be the case.

Other users may agree that the intended benefit has some advantages, but on balance would prefer a different design decision. I'm one of those.

Which is why different tools will emerge with different design decisions.

As it should be.

Mike
 


==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
[hidden email]  
==========================

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html 



-----Original Message-----
From: Max Voelkel [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM
To: Daniel Schwabe
Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; Blanchard, Duane L; [hidden email]; Uschold, Michael F
Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Hi,

  the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples.
  Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere.

  Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons:

  1) (the important reason)

  Make  it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated links
  is  enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but one is
  courious  why,  it's  enough  to  go to page X and look there. There can be no
  ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made.

  2) (the tiny reason)
  It's  easier  to  handle.  Whenever  a user edits a page X, semantic mediawiki
  simply  removes  all  triples  (X,*,*),  parses  the  page and adds triples as
  needed.

A  paper  about  possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the design
space) is here [1]


[1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis


Kind Regards,
Max

--
Max Völkel
http://Xam.de

FZI  Forschungszentrum Informatik          http://www.FZI.de
an der Universität Karlsruhe               telephone: +49-721-9654-0
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14                    fax:       +49-721-9654-959
D-76131 Karlsruhe

Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe.
Vorstand:  Prof.  Dr.-Ing.  Rüdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor,
  Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer.
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus.


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Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Uschold, Michael F
In reply to this post by Max Voelkel-2
This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message is incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating Idaho and Montana in the Bob page.

Just to be clear.

Mike



==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
[hidden email]  
==========================

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html 



-----Original Message-----
From: Max Voelkel [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM
To: Daniel Schwabe
Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; Blanchard, Duane L; [hidden email]; Uschold, Michael F
Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Hi,

  the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples.
  Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere.

  Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons:

  1) (the important reason)

  Make  it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated links
  is  enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but one is
  courious  why,  it's  enough  to  go to page X and look there. There can be no
  ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made.

  2) (the tiny reason)
  It's  easier  to  handle.  Whenever  a user edits a page X, semantic mediawiki
  simply  removes  all  triples  (X,*,*),  parses  the  page and adds triples as
  needed.

A  paper  about  possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the design
space) is here [1]


[1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis


Kind Regards,
Max

--
Max Völkel
http://Xam.de

FZI  Forschungszentrum Informatik          http://www.FZI.de
an der Universität Karlsruhe               telephone: +49-721-9654-0
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14                    fax:       +49-721-9654-959
D-76131 Karlsruhe

Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe.
Vorstand:  Prof.  Dr.-Ing.  Rüdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor,
  Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer.
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus.


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Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Sebastian Schaffert-2
In reply to this post by Max Voelkel-2
Max Voelkel schrieb:

> Hi,
>
>   the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples.
>   Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere.
>
>   Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons:
>
>   1) (the important reason)
>
>   Make  it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated links
>   is  enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but one is
>   courious  why,  it's  enough  to  go to page X and look there. There can be no
>   ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made.
>
>   2) (the tiny reason)
>   It's  easier  to  handle.  Whenever  a user edits a page X, semantic mediawiki
>   simply  removes  all  triples  (X,*,*),  parses  the  page and adds triples as
>   needed.
>
> A  paper  about  possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the design
> space) is here [1]
>  


Just wanted to mention that IkeWiki  - in contrast to Semantic MediaWiki
- stores relations separately from the page content and thus does
support adding arbitrary relations. There are also several reasons in
favor of this approach:

1)  (the first important reason)
   
    it avoids a maintenance problem, as it is not necessary to check
whether a relation has been removed when a page is saved.

2)  (the other important reason)

    this basically allows the system to be used as a full RDF graph
editor (with support for the basic OWL constructs).

There are some drawbacks of this approach, the main being that
versioning of metadata changes is more complex (but we are sure to be
able to solve this issue).

It is also to a large extent a matter of taste and a matter of which
workflow one favors. I even thought about supporting both styles of
doing annotations in IkeWiki - it really isn't too hard to do.

Greetings,

--
Sebastian

| Dr. Sebastian Schaffert          [hidden email]
| Salzburg Research Forschungsgesellschaft  http://www.salzburgresearch.at
| Knowledge Based Information Systems                     +43 662 2288 423
| Jakob-Haringer Strasse 5/II
| A-5020 Salzburg
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Re: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Mark Greaves
In reply to this post by Blanchard, Duane L
Mike,

> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
> to see it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.

I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,
they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of
relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of people
who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the
triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process
for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  So, rather than force
triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes
more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the
subject page.  Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of
using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute
over the value of a triple.

This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more
cumbersome.  Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of
making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki
editors.

Mark

Mark Greaves
Vulcan Inc.
505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA   98104

(206) 342-2276   (voice)
(206) 342-3276   (fax)

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM
> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe
> Cc: [hidden email]; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H;
> [hidden email]; Murray, William R;
> [hidden email]; Mark Greaves;
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''
>
> See additional inline comments....
>
> Thx,
>
> D
>
> ----
> Duane L. Blanchard
> Computational Linguist
> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology
> 425.373.2800
>
> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what
> you have in
> mind when you think of a "wiki page"?
>
> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like
> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the
> wiki concept: Idaho.
>
> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is
> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in
> your mind.
> --
>
> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an
> attribution
> (a triple) to this page -
> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject,
> which is a
> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you
> assign to these
> triples?
>
>
> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That
> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject
> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only
> really has
> doubles there explicitly, not triples.
>
> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that
> relates to
> something else.
>
> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a
> concept and
> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject.
>
> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki
> but not to a page.
> --
>
> Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of
> concepts -
> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some
> discourse,
> or relative to some conceptualization schema?
> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and
> scenarios)
> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?
>
> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an
> instance of some class.
> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person.  On that
> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in
> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also
> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho
> borders on Montana.  So from the web page, I want to be able to create
> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts.  Then I want to select
> each of them,
> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn
> and set that relationship between these two concepts.  
>
> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
> to see it.
> I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>
> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and
> Montana are say,
> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**.  
>
> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an
> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.
>
> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual
> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't
> associate it with
> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In
> SemMedWiki, I
> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change
> there.
>
> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist
> without also being pages?
>

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Re: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Daniel Schwabe
It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each
one understands as a "wiki", in this context.
Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective
production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To
some, this knowledge as being represented as triples.  Others view it as
being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable),
and still others may see it as a combination of both.
The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people
would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common
understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be.
(Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text
based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is
another discussion perhaps).
I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the
alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you
take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If
you take the third point of view, it is not so clear...
This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit
more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e.
triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and
third alternatives above.
So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in
using the wiki?

On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote:

> Mike,
>
>  
>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>> to see it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>    
>
> I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,
> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of
> relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of people
> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the
> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process
> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  So, rather than force
> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes
> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the
> subject page.  Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of
> using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute
> over the value of a triple.
>
> This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more
> cumbersome.  Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of
> making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki
> editors.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Greaves
> Vulcan Inc.
> 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900
> Seattle, WA   98104
>
> (206) 342-2276   (voice)
> (206) 342-3276   (fax)
>
>  
>
>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM
>> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe
>> Cc: [hidden email]; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H;
>> [hidden email]; Murray, William R;
>> [hidden email]; Mark Greaves;
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''
>>
>> See additional inline comments....
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> D
>>
>> ----
>> Duane L. Blanchard
>> Computational Linguist
>> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology
>> 425.373.2800
>>
>> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what
>> you have in
>> mind when you think of a "wiki page"?
>>
>> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like
>> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the
>> wiki concept: Idaho.
>>
>> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is
>> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in
>> your mind.
>> --
>>
>> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
>> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an
>> attribution
>> (a triple) to this page -
>> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject,
>> which is a
>> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you
>> assign to these
>> triples?
>>
>>
>> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That
>> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject
>> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only
>> really has
>> doubles there explicitly, not triples.
>>
>> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that
>> relates to
>> something else.
>>
>> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a
>> concept and
>> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject.
>>
>> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki
>> but not to a page.
>> --
>>
>> Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of
>> concepts -
>> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
>> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some
>> discourse,
>> or relative to some conceptualization schema?
>> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and
>> scenarios)
>> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
>> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?
>>
>> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an
>> instance of some class.
>> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person.  On that
>> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in
>> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also
>> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho
>> borders on Montana.  So from the web page, I want to be able to create
>> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts.  Then I want to select
>> each of them,
>> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn
>> and set that relationship between these two concepts.  
>>
>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>> to see it.
>> I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>
>> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and
>> Montana are say,
>> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**.  
>>
>> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an
>> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.
>>
>> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual
>> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't
>> associate it with
>> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In
>> SemMedWiki, I
>> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change
>> there.
>>
>> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist
>> without also being pages?
>>
>>    
>
>
>  


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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Sebastian Schaffert-2
In reply to this post by Mark Greaves
Mark Greaves schrieb:

> Mike,
>
>  
>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>> to see it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>    
>
> I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,
> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of
> relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of people
> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the
> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process
> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  So, rather than force
> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes
> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the
> subject page.  

Why the subject and not e.g. the object?

What you suggest is a very limited approach to navigation for triples. I
can imagine a wide variety of different ways to locate and edit a
triple, e.g.:
- at the object
- at a page describing the property
- at a page describing the class of the subject
- at a page describing the class of the subject
- at domain specific editors that allow to perform more complex metadata
operations (RDF is just like assembler - why should I need to work
directly with triples?)



--
Sebastian

| Dr. Sebastian Schaffert          [hidden email]
| Salzburg Research Forschungsgesellschaft  http://www.salzburgresearch.at
| Knowledge Based Information Systems                     +43 662 2288 423
| Jakob-Haringer Strasse 5/II
| A-5020 Salzburg
PGP Key fingerprint =
       13 1D 2E 4F 20 3E C9 1F  4C 57 52 87 8A 80 48 4D  F5 E9 97 EC


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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

ciapistess
In reply to this post by Daniel Schwabe
(sorry for multiple copies - honestly this thread has too many To: and
Cc: to understand ....)

While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I
always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of
triples would be convenient.
However, these should be, IMHO, confined in pages without subject, or
with multiple subject.

To attempt a parallel with the 'unplugged' wiki, there are
'encyclopedic' pages on specific subjects like [[Edgar Varese]], and
'flow of thought' pages like [[Influence of Varese music in Frank Zappa
production]] without a clear subject.

In the latter case, I would like to see a straight implementation of N3,
  instead of strange wiki-syntax deviations. Maybe something in the
style suggested by
http://www.wikisophia.org/wiki/Wikitex.

Andrea


Daniel Schwabe ha scritto:

> It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each
> one understands as a "wiki", in this context.
> Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective
> production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To
> some, this knowledge as being represented as triples.  Others view it as
> being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable),
> and still others may see it as a combination of both.
> The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people
> would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common
> understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be.
> (Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text
> based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is
> another discussion perhaps).
> I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the
> alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you
> take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If
> you take the third point of view, it is not so clear...
> This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit
> more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e.
> triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and
> third alternatives above.
> So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in
> using the wiki?
>
> On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>>  
>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>>> to see it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>>    
>> I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
>> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,
>> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of
>> relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of people
>> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the
>> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process
>> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  So, rather than force
>> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes
>> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the
>> subject page.  Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of
>> using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute
>> over the value of a triple.
>>
>> This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more
>> cumbersome.  Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of
>> making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki
>> editors.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark Greaves
>> Vulcan Inc.
>> 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900
>> Seattle, WA   98104
>>
>> (206) 342-2276   (voice)
>> (206) 342-3276   (fax)
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM
>>> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe
>>> Cc: [hidden email]; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H;
>>> [hidden email]; Murray, William R;
>>> [hidden email]; Mark Greaves;
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''
>>>
>>> See additional inline comments....
>>>
>>> Thx,
>>>
>>> D
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Duane L. Blanchard
>>> Computational Linguist
>>> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology
>>> 425.373.2800
>>>
>>> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what
>>> you have in
>>> mind when you think of a "wiki page"?
>>>
>>> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like
>>> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the
>>> wiki concept: Idaho.
>>>
>>> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is
>>> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in
>>> your mind.
>>> --
>>>
>>> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
>>> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an
>>> attribution
>>> (a triple) to this page -
>>> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject,
>>> which is a
>>> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you
>>> assign to these
>>> triples?
>>>
>>>
>>> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That
>>> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject
>>> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only
>>> really has
>>> doubles there explicitly, not triples.
>>>
>>> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that
>>> relates to
>>> something else.
>>>
>>> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a
>>> concept and
>>> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject.
>>>
>>> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki
>>> but not to a page.
>>> --
>>>
>>> Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of
>>> concepts -
>>> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
>>> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some
>>> discourse,
>>> or relative to some conceptualization schema?
>>> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and
>>> scenarios)
>>> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
>>> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?
>>>
>>> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an
>>> instance of some class.
>>> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person.  On that
>>> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in
>>> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also
>>> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho
>>> borders on Montana.  So from the web page, I want to be able to create
>>> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts.  Then I want to select
>>> each of them,
>>> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn
>>> and set that relationship between these two concepts.  
>>>
>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>>> to see it.
>>> I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and
>>> Montana are say,
>>> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**.  
>>>
>>> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an
>>> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.
>>>
>>> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual
>>> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't
>>> associate it with
>>> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In
>>> SemMedWiki, I
>>> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change
>>> there.
>>>
>>> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist
>>> without also being pages?
>>>
>>>    
>>
>>  
>
> _______________________________________________
> swikig mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
>
>
>


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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

David Karger
I would argue that a given triple can naturally show up in many
different context---on the page associated with its subject, on the page
associated with its object, and on a variety of pages representing the
results of queries that involve that triple.  And we might as let people
edit that triple _wherever_ they encounter it.  Why should a triple have
to have a single "home" page where it can be edited?  And what does it
mean to edit a triple anyway?  Pretty much all you can do with a triple
is create one or delete one.  It seems no big deal to let someone create
a triple while they are editing any page.  Presumably they will
_usually_ create a triple having to do with the subject of the page, but
as in the example that started all this, they may be prompted to create
a bunch of "supporting" triples that go with but are not exactly bound
to the page subject.  Conversely, if a triple shows up in any page,
there should be a way for a user to delete it---this seems doable, by
having the wiki compare the original text to the edited text, identify
triples that are no longer present, and remove them from the triple store.

[hidden email] wrote:

> (sorry for multiple copies - honestly this thread has too many To: and
> Cc: to understand ....)
>
> While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I
> always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of
> triples would be convenient.
> However, these should be, IMHO, confined in pages without subject, or
> with multiple subject.
>
> To attempt a parallel with the 'unplugged' wiki, there are
> 'encyclopedic' pages on specific subjects like [[Edgar Varese]], and
> 'flow of thought' pages like [[Influence of Varese music in Frank Zappa
> production]] without a clear subject.
>
> In the latter case, I would like to see a straight implementation of N3,
>   instead of strange wiki-syntax deviations. Maybe something in the
> style suggested by
> http://www.wikisophia.org/wiki/Wikitex.
>
> Andrea
>
>
> Daniel Schwabe ha scritto:
>  
>> It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each
>> one understands as a "wiki", in this context.
>> Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective
>> production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To
>> some, this knowledge as being represented as triples.  Others view it as
>> being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable),
>> and still others may see it as a combination of both.
>> The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people
>> would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common
>> understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be.
>> (Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text
>> based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is
>> another discussion perhaps).
>> I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the
>> alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you
>> take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If
>> you take the third point of view, it is not so clear...
>> This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit
>> more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e.
>> triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and
>> third alternatives above.
>> So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in
>> using the wiki?
>>
>> On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote:
>>    
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>>>> to see it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>> I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
>>> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,
>>> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of
>>> relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of people
>>> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the
>>> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process
>>> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  So, rather than force
>>> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes
>>> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the
>>> subject page.  Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of
>>> using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute
>>> over the value of a triple.
>>>
>>> This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more
>>> cumbersome.  Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of
>>> making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki
>>> editors.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Mark Greaves
>>> Vulcan Inc.
>>> 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900
>>> Seattle, WA   98104
>>>
>>> (206) 342-2276   (voice)
>>> (206) 342-3276   (fax)
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM
>>>> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe
>>>> Cc: [hidden email]; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H;
>>>> [hidden email]; Murray, William R;
>>>> [hidden email]; Mark Greaves;
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''
>>>>
>>>> See additional inline comments....
>>>>
>>>> Thx,
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Duane L. Blanchard
>>>> Computational Linguist
>>>> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology
>>>> 425.373.2800
>>>>
>>>> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what
>>>> you have in
>>>> mind when you think of a "wiki page"?
>>>>
>>>> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like
>>>> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the
>>>> wiki concept: Idaho.
>>>>
>>>> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is
>>>> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in
>>>> your mind.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a
>>>> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an
>>>> attribution
>>>> (a triple) to this page -
>>>> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject,
>>>> which is a
>>>> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you
>>>> assign to these
>>>> triples?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That
>>>> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject
>>>> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only
>>>> really has
>>>> doubles there explicitly, not triples.
>>>>
>>>> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that
>>>> relates to
>>>> something else.
>>>>
>>>> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a
>>>> concept and
>>>> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject.
>>>>
>>>> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki
>>>> but not to a page.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Is it supposed to  encapsulate some kind of concept or set of
>>>> concepts -
>>>> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts?
>>>> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" -  relative to some
>>>> discourse,
>>>> or relative to some conceptualization schema?
>>>> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and
>>>> scenarios)
>>>> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped
>>>> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need?
>>>>
>>>> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an
>>>> instance of some class.
>>>> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person.  On that
>>>> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in
>>>> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also
>>>> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho
>>>> borders on Montana.  So from the web page, I want to be able to create
>>>> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts.  Then I want to select
>>>> each of them,
>>>> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn
>>>> and set that relationship between these two concepts.  
>>>>
>>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>>>> to see it.
>>>> I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and
>>>> Montana are say,
>>>> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**.  
>>>>
>>>> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an
>>>> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue.
>>>>
>>>> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual
>>>> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't
>>>> associate it with
>>>> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In
>>>> SemMedWiki, I
>>>> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist
>>>> without also being pages?
>>>>
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>  
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> swikig mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>
> _______________________________________________
> swikig mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
>
>  

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Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

kellyterryjones
In reply to this post by Uschold, Michael F
It seems easy to modify Semantic Mediawiki to allow this? (said by a
very poor programmer). My thoughts:

% Tweak SMW's hooks to understand [[x::R::y]] to mean the triple x,R,y

% Add columns to smw_relations/etc to indicate which page created a
given row (it's no longer guarenteed to be the 'subject' page)

% Tweak the save/delete hooks: when a page is saved, all rows
that page created are deleted and re-created

% To avoid cacheing issues, if page w has a relation [[x::R::y]],
force-update page x when w is saved.

Any takers?

--
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying
to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to
new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.

On 4/26/07, Uschold, Michael F <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message is
> incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating Idaho and
> Montana in the Bob page.
>
> Just to be clear.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ==========================
> Michael Uschold
> M&CT, Phantom Works
> 425 373-2845
> [hidden email]
> ==========================
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to:
> http://gethuman.com/tips.html
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max Voelkel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM
> To: Daniel Schwabe
> Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]; Blanchard, Duane L;
> [hidden email]; Uschold, Michael F
> Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations
> on Semantic Mediawikipage?
>
> Hi,
>
>   the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples.
>   Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere.
>
>   Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons:
>
>   1) (the important reason)
>
>   Make  it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated
> links
>   is  enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but
> one is
>   courious  why,  it's  enough  to  go to page X and look there. There can
> be no
>   ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made.
>
>   2) (the tiny reason)
>   It's  easier  to  handle.  Whenever  a user edits a page X, semantic
> mediawiki
>   simply  removes  all  triples  (X,*,*),  parses  the  page and adds
> triples as
>   needed.
>
> A  paper  about  possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the
> design
> space) is here [1]
>
>
> [1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis
>
>
> Kind Regards,
> Max
>
> --
> Max Völkel
> http://Xam.de
>
> FZI  Forschungszentrum Informatik          http://www.FZI.de
> an der Universität Karlsruhe               telephone: +49-721-9654-0
> Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14                    fax:       +49-721-9654-959
> D-76131 Karlsruhe
>
> Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium
> Karlsruhe.
> Vorstand:  Prof.  Dr.-Ing.  Rüdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor,
>   Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer.
> Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus.
>
>
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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Jack Park-3
In reply to this post by David Karger
David,

When you say "edit that triple _wherever_ they encounter it", do you
mean that the triple *itself* is a singleton and has just been
transcluded (ala Ted Nelson) or do you envision that the triple stands
as it is, an instance of a particular statement such that editing it
does not affect other instances of the same statement?

I've been watching this thread with the "topic maps" context in mind,
and I think this thread is being at once instructive and enlightening. I
am amazed that the many different ways we have come to interpret the
term "page". I'll admit that the topic maps perspective can seem pretty
limited, given that a "page" would be a representation/carrier/whatever
for a *subject* -- doesn't matter what that subject is: it could just be
a collection of representations of other subjects, as for example, the
"first steps" page at the apache jackrabbit wiki; the subject of that
page is just that: examples, each of which is, itself, another
subject(s). (note to self: gotta watch syntax here).

I tend to think of a page in the same sense as GOFAI frames would have
me think: the page is the foundation for a particular frame, a subject
if you like, and whatever else is contained in that page is, in some
sense, a slot or slots in the frame. Said slots could be triples, text,
HREFs, whatever.  That's just the view I take of a page. Your mileage
might vary.

Cheers
Jack

David Karger wrote:

> I would argue that a given triple can naturally show up in many
> different context---on the page associated with its subject, on the page
> associated with its object, and on a variety of pages representing the
> results of queries that involve that triple.  And we might as let people
> edit that triple _wherever_ they encounter it.  Why should a triple have
> to have a single "home" page where it can be edited?  And what does it
> mean to edit a triple anyway?  Pretty much all you can do with a triple
> is create one or delete one.  It seems no big deal to let someone create
> a triple while they are editing any page.  Presumably they will
> _usually_ create a triple having to do with the subject of the page, but
> as in the example that started all this, they may be prompted to create
> a bunch of "supporting" triples that go with but are not exactly bound
> to the page subject.  Conversely, if a triple shows up in any page,
> there should be a way for a user to delete it---this seems doable, by
> having the wiki compare the original text to the edited text, identify
> triples that are no longer present, and remove them from the triple store.
>
> [hidden email] wrote:
>> (sorry for multiple copies - honestly this thread has too many To: and
>> Cc: to understand ....)
>>
>> While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I
>> always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of
>> triples would be convenient.
>> However, these should be, IMHO, confined in pages without subject, or
>> with multiple subject.
>>
>> To attempt a parallel with the 'unplugged' wiki, there are
>> 'encyclopedic' pages on specific subjects like [[Edgar Varese]], and
>> 'flow of thought' pages like [[Influence of Varese music in Frank Zappa
>> production]] without a clear subject.
>>
>> In the latter case, I would like to see a straight implementation of N3,
>>   instead of strange wiki-syntax deviations. Maybe something in the
>> style suggested by
>> http://www.wikisophia.org/wiki/Wikitex.
>>
>> Andrea
>>
>>
>> Daniel Schwabe ha scritto:
>>  
>>> It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each
>>> one understands as a "wiki", in this context.
>>> Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective
>>> production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To
>>> some, this knowledge as being represented as triples.  Others view it as
>>> being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable),
>>> and still others may see it as a combination of both.
>>> The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people
>>> would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common
>>> understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be.
>>> (Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text
>>> based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is
>>> another discussion perhaps).
>>> I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the
>>> alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you
>>> take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If
>>> you take the third point of view, it is not so clear...
>>> This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit
>>> more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e.
>>> triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and
>>> third alternatives above.
>>> So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in
>>> using the wiki?
>>>
>>> On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>>>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want
>>>>> to see it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>>>>    
>>>>>        
>>>> I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
>>>> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,
>>>> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of
>>>> relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of people
>>>> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the
>>>> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process
>>>> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  So, rather than force
>>>> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes
>>>> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the
>>>> subject page.  Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of
>>>> using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute
>>>> over the value of a triple.
>>>>
>>>> This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more
>>>> cumbersome.  Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of
>>>> making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki
>>>> editors.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>> Mark Greaves
>>>> Vulcan Inc.
>>>> 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900
>>>> Seattle, WA   98104
>>>>
>>>> (206) 342-2276   (voice)
>>>> (206) 342-3276   (fax)
>>>>

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Re: [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations on Semantic Mediawikipage?

Yaron Koren
In reply to this post by kellyterryjones
[Now I don't know which of the two competing threads to respond to...
I'm picking this one.]

Someone brought it up before, but it's worth repeating: the thing that
makes free-form triples on semantic wikis (in my opinion) very
undesirable is having to deal with conflicts. To borrow from the
original example, if Bob's page lists a population size for Montana,
and Bill's page lists a different population, and Montana's own page
lists a third population altogether, how do you know which one to use?
There are other arguments that can be made against free-form triples,
but in a sense they all stem back from this problem of data conflicts.

-Yaron


On 4/27/07, Kelly Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It seems easy to modify Semantic Mediawiki to allow this? (said by a
> very poor programmer). My thoughts:
>
> % Tweak SMW's hooks to understand [[x::R::y]] to mean the triple x,R,y
>
> % Add columns to smw_relations/etc to indicate which page created a
> given row (it's no longer guarenteed to be the 'subject' page)
>
> % Tweak the save/delete hooks: when a page is saved, all rows
> that page created are deleted and re-created
>
> % To avoid cacheing issues, if page w has a relation [[x::R::y]],
> force-update page x when w is saved.
>
> Any takers?
>
> --
> We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying
> to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to
> new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.
>
> On 4/26/07, Uschold, Michael F <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This seems to confirm that the information given in a prior message is
> > incorrect. That person said one COULD create a triple relating Idaho and
> > Montana in the Bob page.
> >
> > Just to be clear.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ==========================
> > Michael Uschold
> > M&CT, Phantom Works
> > 425 373-2845
> > [hidden email]
> > ==========================
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to:
> > http://gethuman.com/tips.html
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Max Voelkel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:59 AM
> > To: Daniel Schwabe
> > Cc: Jones, David H; Murray, William R; [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]; Blanchard, Duane L;
> > [hidden email]; Uschold, Michael F
> > Subject: Re[2]: [Semediawiki-user] [swikig] Modeling "third party" relations
> > on Semantic Mediawikipage?
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >   the overall question seems to be how a semantic wiki creates triples.
> >   Of course, technically, one could create triples everywhere.
> >
> >   Not allowing this in Semantic MediaWiki has two reasons:
> >
> >   1) (the important reason)
> >
> >   Make  it easier for the user. One has not to think in triples, annotated
> > links
> >   is  enough. Even better: whenever a search result brings page X up, but
> > one is
> >   courious  why,  it's  enough  to  go to page X and look there. There can
> > be no
> >   ohter place where a wrong triple about X can be made.
> >
> >   2) (the tiny reason)
> >   It's  easier  to  handle.  Whenever  a user edits a page X, semantic
> > mediawiki
> >   simply  removes  all  triples  (X,*,*),  parses  the  page and adds
> > triples as
> >   needed.
> >
> > A  paper  about  possible ways to create annotations from wiki pages (the
> > design
> > space) is here [1]
> >
> >
> > [1] http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Annotation_and_Navigation_in_Semantic_Wikis
> >
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Max
> >
> > --
> > Max Völkel
> > http://Xam.de
> >
> > FZI  Forschungszentrum Informatik          http://www.FZI.de
> > an der Universität Karlsruhe               telephone: +49-721-9654-0
> > Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10-14                    fax:       +49-721-9654-959
> > D-76131 Karlsruhe
> >
> > Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts. Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium
> > Karlsruhe.
> > Vorstand:  Prof.  Dr.-Ing.  Rüdiger Dillmann, Dipl. Wi.-Ing. Michael Flor,
> >   Prof. Dr. Dr.-Ing. Jivka Ovtcharova, Prof. Dr. rer. nat. Rudi Studer.
> > Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
> >
>
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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki

Pär Lannerö
In reply to this post by ciapistess

27 apr 2007 kl. 13.19 skrev [hidden email]:

> While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I
> always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of
> triples would be convenient.

I second that.

On the one hand, the page-centric approach means simplicity and ease  
of use, which won't hurt the Semantic Web at all.

On the other hand, when we discussed these matters in the Nepomuk  
project, somebody (Max? Malte Kiesel?) provided the following problem  
description regarding the page-centric approach:

"Imagine a large table that lists 100 products along with a
short description and price. In order to express this in a semantic wiki
that identifies a page with a resource, one gets forced to create 100  
wiki
pages, one for each row of the table, both cluttering title index and
recent changes pages. "

Preferrably, a semantic wiki should allow very simple page-centric  
statements as well as arbitrary triples.
How can the two approaches best be combined?


Best regards from a sunny Stockholm


Pär Lannerö
[hidden email]
Mobil: 073-944 20 43

METAMATRIX // INTERFOLIO
Sveavägen 31, 3 tr, 111 34 Stockholm
Tel: 08-50 65 33 43
http://www.metamatrix.se

KTH // NEPOMUK
Lindstedtsvägen 3, 6 tr, 100 44 Stockholm
Tel: 08-790 66 98
http://www.csc.kth.se
http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org



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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Uschold, Michael F
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schaffert-2
This is well stated. I agree completely.

Mike


==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
[hidden email]  
==========================

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-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastian Schaffert
[mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 12:30 AM
To: Mark Greaves
Cc: Blanchard, Duane L; Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe;
[hidden email]; Murray, William R; Jones, David
H; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki ''

Mark Greaves schrieb:

> Mike,
>
>  
>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be
>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want to see
>> it.  I want the tool to take care of all that for me.
>>    
>
> I disagree with this.  In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of
> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors,

> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of

> relatively untrained people.  In order to maximize the number of
> people who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and
> editing the triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the
> already-known process for making corrections to ordinary wikitext.  
> So, rather than force triple-editing to go through some kind of
> searchbox interface, it makes more sense to me to make the triples
> embed in the wikitext of the subject page.

Why the subject and not e.g. the object?

What you suggest is a very limited approach to navigation for triples. I
can imagine a wide variety of different ways to locate and edit a
triple, e.g.:
- at the object
- at a page describing the property
- at a page describing the class of the subject
- at a page describing the class of the subject
- at domain specific editors that allow to perform more complex metadata
operations (RDF is just like assembler - why should I need to work
directly with triples?)



--
Sebastian

| Dr. Sebastian Schaffert
[hidden email]
| Salzburg Research Forschungsgesellschaft
http://www.salzburgresearch.at
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Re: [swikig] Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki

Jack Park-3
In reply to this post by Pär Lannerö
Imagine that large table indeed!
What if one wants to annotate each of the table entries? That is to say,
what if one wants to link a particular table entry, say, a television
set, to other web pages, add user comments about the product, etc. How
could one do that within the constraints of the lone wiki page that has
that table?

My own response is that there is nothing wrong with "cluttering up" the
recent changes page with lots of new pages, each of which is a subject
in its own right. For portal designers and programmers to presume what
the ultimate portal users' needs will be, and to make judgments based on
ideas like "cluttered up" navigational aids suggests a possible weakness
in the core wiki architecture itself, that of relying on recent changes
and title index as the primary means of navigating a wiki (I'm not
forgetting search, here). Seems like there ought to be other options.

I guess I am suggesting that semantic wiki creators, while working
really hard to integrate with the semantic web, need also to think in
terms of the navigation needs of human users; reliance on title listings
and recent changes listings is perhaps ready for as much rethinking as
are issues like where and how to put triples on pages.

Jack

Pär Lannerö wrote:

> 27 apr 2007 kl. 13.19 skrev [hidden email]:
>
>> While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I
>> always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of
>> triples would be convenient.
>
> I second that.
>
> On the one hand, the page-centric approach means simplicity and ease  
> of use, which won't hurt the Semantic Web at all.
>
> On the other hand, when we discussed these matters in the Nepomuk  
> project, somebody (Max? Malte Kiesel?) provided the following problem  
> description regarding the page-centric approach:
>
> "Imagine a large table that lists 100 products along with a
> short description and price. In order to express this in a semantic wiki
> that identifies a page with a resource, one gets forced to create 100  
> wiki
> pages, one for each row of the table, both cluttering title index and
> recent changes pages. "
>
> Preferrably, a semantic wiki should allow very simple page-centric  
> statements as well as arbitrary triples.
> How can the two approaches best be combined?
>
>
> Best regards from a sunny Stockholm
>
>
> Pär Lannerö
> [hidden email]
> Mobil: 073-944 20 43
>
> METAMATRIX // INTERFOLIO
> Sveavägen 31, 3 tr, 111 34 Stockholm
> Tel: 08-50 65 33 43
> http://www.metamatrix.se
>
> KTH // NEPOMUK
> Lindstedtsvägen 3, 6 tr, 100 44 Stockholm
> Tel: 08-790 66 98
> http://www.csc.kth.se
> http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> swikig mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
>


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