Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Rob Church
[Cross-post to wikien-l, wikitech-l and mediawiki-l; apologies for duplication]

On 03/05/06, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>   The "Upload file" link in the left pane of monobook still takes you
> to the page for uploading an image to the English wikipedia. In most
> cases, it would be more helpful to be uploading the image to Commons
> (US fair use being the notable exception).
>
> Since I notice that certain other wikipedias at least make a commons
> upload link equally prominent, is it time we considered removing the
> upload-to-EN link entirely, or hiding it somewhere for those that
> really do want to upload fair use images? And instead, provide a link
> to upload to commons?

Allow me to recall a #mediawiki anecdote from about a week ago. A user
new to the software wanted to set up about three wikis using a fourth
as a mini version of our Commons (their own implementation); the
"usage" side had been established, but the user queried whether or not
uploads from all wikis could be diverted to the new.

Given that the "slave" wikis would all have access to the "master"
database (excuse the confusing mix of terminologies for those who are
placing this into 'SQL context), I considered it wouldn't be too
difficult.

Now for the relevant bit. It's been discussed before, a little, and I
touched upon it in a recent discussion sparked off from the newbie's
questions...but it could be feasible for us to replace our
Special:Upload pages with something a bit more intelligent. Making use
of the licencing dropdowns, we could, I think, redirect free images to
Commons in a seamless fashion (after checking existence and providing
a courteous note to the user, of course).

This has advantages and disadvantages. The user's upload experience is
simple, and the image can be used as before without trouble. On the
other hand, deliberate or accidental mis-selection of the licence
[cw]ould result in an influx of non-free materials arriving on the
Commons.

Nevertheless, I think the idea has potential, and it's something I
might be interested in helping to hack together in the future. I'll
throw it out here and see what people think. And since I'm at it, I'll
cross-post to mediawiki-l and wikitech-l, too.


Rob Church
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Filip Maljković
Rob Church wrote:
> [snip]
> Now for the relevant bit. It's been discussed before, a little, and I
> touched upon it in a recent discussion sparked off from the newbie's
> questions...but it could be feasible for us to replace our
> Special:Upload pages with something a bit more intelligent. Making use
> of the licencing dropdowns, we could, I think, redirect free images to
> Commons in a seamless fashion (after checking existence and providing
> a courteous note to the user, of course).
>  
That's a brilliant idea. I'd really like to see it implemented. Not only
for English Wikipedia, but for all Wikimedia projects.
> This has advantages and disadvantages. The user's upload experience is
> simple, and the image can be used as before without trouble. On the
> other hand, deliberate or accidental mis-selection of the licence
> [cw]ould result in an influx of non-free materials arriving on the
> Commons.
>  
Even though I'm not a Commons expert, I can deduce that Commons too has
a problem with wrong licenses, hence some of the deletion.
> [snip]
Filip

P.S. Sorry for doubleposts... I used Reply to all
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Rob Church
On 03/05/06, Filip Maljkovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That's a brilliant idea. I'd really like to see it implemented. Not only
> for English Wikipedia, but for all Wikimedia projects.

If it wasn't clear that that was the implication, then I apologise.

> Even though I'm not a Commons expert, I can deduce that Commons too has
> a problem with wrong licenses, hence some of the deletion.

Yes, but how much extra workload would it produce, and would the
benefits outweigh the disadvantages?


Rob Church
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Filip Maljković
Rob Church wrote:
> On 03/05/06, Filip Maljkovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Even though I'm not a Commons expert, I can deduce that Commons too has
>> a problem with wrong licenses, hence some of the deletion.
>>    
>
> Yes, but how much extra workload would it produce, and would the
> benefits outweigh the disadvantages?
I think they would. But that's just my opinion and I can see why you
have doubts about this. It'd be a step that could have a great impact in
the future. I'm interested in what others think, though.

Filip
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Brianna Laugher
In reply to this post by Rob Church
(Fwding to Commons list as well)

Hmm... as a Commons admin I find this very interesting. Does it imply
that the universal login is really in sight? We can only hope! :)

I hope that the universal login does bring with it some kind of
universal talk page "you have new messages...somewhere" notice. Most
Commons users don't check their Commons talk pages with any regularity
and thus don't receive their image warnings, and feel quite slighted
when their copyvios/unsourced images are deleted. Any opportunity to
reduce that would be welcome.

I guess I would say that it's a good idea, except it would very
welcome if en.wp (and any other projects that do this) would consider
"donating" a few admins/keen users to help us out on copyvio patrol.
For non-English projects this is especially essential - it is just so
fantastic to have a native speaker around to be able to ask/tell them,
"you deal with this person, please" :)

Also Commons is, I think, a little more stringent in its application
of free image requirements (that is, when we notice).

Last concern is that Commons really requires uploaders to categorise
their images, something that is not so necessary on en.wp.  Luckily
there are a couple of tools to help with this, perhaps one of these
could be worked into the interface somehow. See the recent commons-l
archive for links.

Brianna

> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:05:28 +0100
> From: "Rob Church" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?
> To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>,
>        [hidden email],       "MediaWiki announcements and site admin
>        list" <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID:
>        <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> [Cross-post to wikien-l, wikitech-l and mediawiki-l; apologies for duplication]
>
> On 03/05/06, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >   The "Upload file" link in the left pane of monobook still takes you
> > to the page for uploading an image to the English wikipedia. In most
> > cases, it would be more helpful to be uploading the image to Commons
> > (US fair use being the notable exception).
> >
> > Since I notice that certain other wikipedias at least make a commons
> > upload link equally prominent, is it time we considered removing the
> > upload-to-EN link entirely, or hiding it somewhere for those that
> > really do want to upload fair use images? And instead, provide a link
> > to upload to commons?
>
> Allow me to recall a #mediawiki anecdote from about a week ago. A user
> new to the software wanted to set up about three wikis using a fourth
> as a mini version of our Commons (their own implementation); the
> "usage" side had been established, but the user queried whether or not
> uploads from all wikis could be diverted to the new.
>
> Given that the "slave" wikis would all have access to the "master"
> database (excuse the confusing mix of terminologies for those who are
> placing this into 'SQL context), I considered it wouldn't be too
> difficult.
>
> Now for the relevant bit. It's been discussed before, a little, and I
> touched upon it in a recent discussion sparked off from the newbie's
> questions...but it could be feasible for us to replace our
> Special:Upload pages with something a bit more intelligent. Making use
> of the licencing dropdowns, we could, I think, redirect free images to
> Commons in a seamless fashion (after checking existence and providing
> a courteous note to the user, of course).
>
> This has advantages and disadvantages. The user's upload experience is
> simple, and the image can be used as before without trouble. On the
> other hand, deliberate or accidental mis-selection of the licence
> [cw]ould result in an influx of non-free materials arriving on the
> Commons.
>
> Nevertheless, I think the idea has potential, and it's something I
> might be interested in helping to hack together in the future. I'll
> throw it out here and see what people think. And since I'm at it, I'll
> cross-post to mediawiki-l and wikitech-l, too.
>
>
> Rob Church
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 17:35:14 +0200
> From: Filip Maljkovic <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
>        <[hidden email]>
> Cc: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>,
>        [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Rob Church wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Now for the relevant bit. It's been discussed before, a little, and I
> > touched upon it in a recent discussion sparked off from the newbie's
> > questions...but it could be feasible for us to replace our
> > Special:Upload pages with something a bit more intelligent. Making use
> > of the licencing dropdowns, we could, I think, redirect free images to
> > Commons in a seamless fashion (after checking existence and providing
> > a courteous note to the user, of course).
> >
> That's a brilliant idea. I'd really like to see it implemented. Not only
> for English Wikipedia, but for all Wikimedia projects.
> > This has advantages and disadvantages. The user's upload experience is
> > simple, and the image can be used as before without trouble. On the
> > other hand, deliberate or accidental mis-selection of the licence
> > [cw]ould result in an influx of non-free materials arriving on the
> > Commons.
> >
> Even though I'm not a Commons expert, I can deduce that Commons too has
> a problem with wrong licenses, hence some of the deletion.
> > [snip]
> Filip
>
> P.S. Sorry for doubleposts... I used Reply to all
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:53:22 +0100
> From: "Rob Church" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?
> To: "MediaWiki announcements and site admin list"
>        <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID:
>        <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 03/05/06, Filip Maljkovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > That's a brilliant idea. I'd really like to see it implemented. Not only
> > for English Wikipedia, but for all Wikimedia projects.
>
> If it wasn't clear that that was the implication, then I apologise.
>
> > Even though I'm not a Commons expert, I can deduce that Commons too has
> > a problem with wrong licenses, hence some of the deletion.
>
> Yes, but how much extra workload would it produce, and would the
> benefits outweigh the disadvantages?
>
>
> Rob Church
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 17:58:41 +0200
> From: Filip Maljkovic <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Mediawiki-l] [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
>        <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Rob Church wrote:
> > On 03/05/06, Filip Maljkovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Even though I'm not a Commons expert, I can deduce that Commons too has
> >> a problem with wrong licenses, hence some of the deletion.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, but how much extra workload would it produce, and would the
> > benefits outweigh the disadvantages?
> I think they would. But that's just my opinion and I can see why you
> have doubts about this. It'd be a step that could have a great impact in
> the future. I'm interested in what others think, though.
>
> Filip
>
>
> ------------------------------
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Rob Church
On 04/05/06, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (Fwding to Commons list as well)
>
> Hmm... as a Commons admin I find this very interesting. Does it imply
> that the universal login is really in sight? We can only hope! :)

Ask the mage Vibber, for he shall cast the glorious charm of single
sign-on and bring joy to our fingertips and hope to our hearts. Or
something equally soppy.

> I hope that the universal login does bring with it some kind of
> universal talk page "you have new messages...somewhere" notice. Most
> Commons users don't check their Commons talk pages with any regularity
> and thus don't receive their image warnings, and feel quite slighted
> when their copyvios/unsourced images are deleted. Any opportunity to
> reduce that would be welcome.

That isn't in the current plans as far as I know, although it would be
damn useful. (See
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/CentralAuth/evil-plans.txt
for those, to some extent.)

> I guess I would say that it's a good idea, except it would very
> welcome if en.wp (and any other projects that do this) would consider
> "donating" a few admins/keen users to help us out on copyvio patrol.
> For non-English projects this is especially essential - it is just so
> fantastic to have a native speaker around to be able to ask/tell them,
> "you deal with this person, please" :)
>
> Also Commons is, I think, a little more stringent in its application
> of free image requirements (that is, when we notice).
>
> Last concern is that Commons really requires uploaders to categorise
> their images, something that is not so necessary on en.wp.  Luckily
> there are a couple of tools to help with this, perhaps one of these
> could be worked into the interface somehow. See the recent commons-l
> archive for links.

A limited list of categories *could* be provided in a drop-down box.
It wouldn't be feasible to load all categories, for performance
reasons, but the main ones could be defined in a message somewhere and
used to build a nice list, as with the licence selector.


Rob Church
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Brianna Laugher
In reply to this post by Rob Church
> > I hope that the universal login does bring with it some kind of
> > universal talk page "you have new messages...somewhere" notice. Most
> > Commons users don't check their Commons talk pages with any regularity
> > and thus don't receive their image warnings, and feel quite slighted
> > when their copyvios/unsourced images are deleted. Any opportunity to
> > reduce that would be welcome.
>
> That isn't in the current plans as far as I know, although it would be
> damn useful. (See
> http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/CentralAuth/evil-plans.txt
> for those, to some extent.)

Hm, I will post something at en.wp's VP (Technical) and hopefully
someone will be inspired to make up somethingorother. Or should I make
a rather hopeful bug report? :)

> > Last concern is that Commons really requires uploaders to categorise
> > their images, something that is not so necessary on en.wp.  Luckily
> > there are a couple of tools to help with this, perhaps one of these
> > could be worked into the interface somehow. See the recent commons-l
> > archive for links.
>
> A limited list of categories *could* be provided in a drop-down box.
> It wouldn't be feasible to load all categories, for performance
> reasons, but the main ones could be defined in a message somewhere and
> used to build a nice list, as with the licence selector.

I mean categories that describe the content (categories that describe
the license status are included as part of the license templates, of
course), so I don't think this is appropriate. The best way would be
to integrate the CommonSense tool (
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CommonSense.php ) by
getting people to suggest keywords or something similar.

The thing is, it's actually not always easy to find the most
appropriate image. CommonSense certainly won't do that for you, but it
will provide some potentially useful higher-level categories which you
can use to manually explore to find a good category. Now, training
people to do that is pretty freaking hard any time of the day.

A crap, general category (eg "Clothes", instead of "1920s Womens
Fashion"or whatever) is better than no category at all, though.

Brianna
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Upload by default to Commons?

Rob Church
On 04/05/06, Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > A limited list of categories *could* be provided in a drop-down box.
> > It wouldn't be feasible to load all categories, for performance
> > reasons, but the main ones could be defined in a message somewhere and
> > used to build a nice list, as with the licence selector.
>
> I mean categories that describe the content (categories that describe
> the license status are included as part of the license templates, of
> course), so I don't think this is appropriate. The best way would be
> to integrate the CommonSense tool (
> http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CommonSense.php ) by
> getting people to suggest keywords or something similar.

I meant, "we could add another drop-down box containing some
pre-suggested categories (with friendlier descriptions), underneath or
above the licence selector."


Rob Church
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