Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
2 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
At [hidden email] ? Perhaps, but hard to start over from
the beginning.

Fred

> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?
>
> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
> recognize from my home wp
>
> Anders
>
>
>
> Fred Bauder skrev 2013-09-05 13:18:
>> That was the purpose of the original arbitration committee. Finding a
>> mentor is kind of hard nowdays as there are so many users who might
>> help
>> but probably will not. On the other hand, many requests I have received
>> and looked into are from people who are making trouble themselves;
>> sometimes very serious trouble. Giving a second chance to someone who
>> has
>> been banned by the community after extended discussion seldom works out
>> well. But that's not a newbie who has run into serious trouble just for
>> making jokes about Windoze...
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others
>>> that
>>> are harassed by other users.
>>>
>>> I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that
>>> you
>>> have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene.
>>>
>>> As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also take on
>>> the
>>> responsibilities that follows.
>>> You can't just duck and pretend that you can hand over all problems to
>>> the users.
>>>
>>> I still think that an international organization like the Wikis
>>> demands
>>> an instance to which mistreated and mobbed users can turn. An instance
>>> with the responsibility that normal rules in a society are upheld and
>>> with the authority to uphold them.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>   Von: Peter Gervai <[hidden email]>
>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>> Gesendet: 10:50 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>> You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.
>>>
>>> At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
>>> (honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
>>> debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
>>> oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
>>> good solution seem to exist.
>>>
>>> In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
>>> cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
>>> who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but they
>>> would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
>>> regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
>>> Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request (if
>>> the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
>>> outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but a
>>> large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.
>>>
>>> I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
>>> a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
>>> enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean, one
>>> in a week or month or so.
>>>
>>> The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
>>> the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
>>> community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
>>> them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
>>> debates.)
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
Indeed, a community a few hundred seems optimal.

Fred

> This is certainly not a question only for the English Wikipedia. I
> somewhat doubt that it even foremost has to do with the English
> Wikipedia. I have seen this problem primarily in smaller Wikis dominated
> by few people.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> CC: [hidden email]
> Gesendet: 13:28 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> At [hidden email] ? Perhaps, but hard to start over from
> the beginning.
>
> Fred
>
>> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English
>> wikipedia?
>>
>> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
>> recognize from my home wp
>>
>> Anders
>>
>>
>>
>> Fred Bauder skrev 2013-09-05 13:18:
>>> That was the purpose of the original arbitration committee. Finding a
>>> mentor is kind of hard nowdays as there are so many users who might
>>> help
>>> but probably will not. On the other hand, many requests I have
>>> received
>>> and looked into are from people who are making trouble themselves;
>>> sometimes very serious trouble. Giving a second chance to someone who
>>> has
>>> been banned by the community after extended discussion seldom works
>>> out
>>> well. But that's not a newbie who has run into serious trouble just
>>> for
>>> making jokes about Windoze...
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>>> It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others
>>>> that
>>>> are harassed by other users.
>>>>
>>>> I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that
>>>> you
>>>> have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene.
>>>>
>>>> As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also take on
>>>> the
>>>> responsibilities that follows.
>>>> You can't just duck and pretend that you can hand over all problems
>>>> to
>>>> the users.
>>>>
>>>> I still think that an international organization like the Wikis
>>>> demands
>>>> an instance to which mistreated and mobbed users can turn. An
>>>> instance
>>>> with the responsibility that normal rules in a society are upheld and
>>>> with the authority to uphold them.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>   Von: Peter Gervai <[hidden email]>
>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>>> Gesendet: 10:50 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>>> itself
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>>> You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.
>>>>
>>>> At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
>>>> (honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
>>>> debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
>>>> oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
>>>> good solution seem to exist.
>>>>
>>>> In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
>>>> cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
>>>> who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but
>>>> they
>>>> would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
>>>> regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
>>>> Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request
>>>> (if
>>>> the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
>>>> outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but
>>>> a
>>>> large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.
>>>>
>>>> I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
>>>> a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
>>>> enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean,
>>>> one
>>>> in a week or month or so.
>>>>
>>>> The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
>>>> the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
>>>> community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
>>>> them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
>>>> debates.)
>>>>
>>>> g
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l