Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
14 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

James Salsman-2
I propose that the Foundation issue a statement in support of striking
Google employees:

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/30/14446312/google-immigration-protest-walkout-trump-googlers-unite

And endorsing the call for a national general strike:

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5r3wxp/forget_protest_trumps_actions_warrant_a_general/

(Except for the Lyft part, because one of its founders is on the
adminstration's transition team.)


On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:38 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is this more appropriate for the Public Policy or Wikimedia-l list?



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/01/court_rulings_couldn_t_protect_everyone_detained_because_of_trump_s_immigration.html



Several permanent residents have apparently been tricked into signing

away their green cards while being detained without benefit of

counsel.



How many Foundation employees are affected by the travel ban?



Will the foundation join the calls for a general strike?
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Nathan Awrich
It might be more effective, and certainly more courteous, if you could
avoid making essentially the same set of advocacy posts almost every day.

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 6:38 PM, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I propose that the Foundation issue a statement in support of striking
> Google employees:
>
> http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/30/14446312/google-
> immigration-protest-walkout-trump-googlers-unite
>
> And endorsing the call for a national general strike:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5r3wxp/
> forget_protest_trumps_actions_warrant_a_general/
>
> (Except for the Lyft part, because one of its founders is on the
> adminstration's transition team.)
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:38 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is this more appropriate for the Public Policy or Wikimedia-l list?
>
>
>
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/
> jurisprudence/2017/01/court_rulings_couldn_t_protect_
> everyone_detained_because_of_trump_s_immigration.html
>
>
>
> Several permanent residents have apparently been tricked into signing
>
> away their green cards while being detained without benefit of
>
> counsel.
>
>
>
> How many Foundation employees are affected by the travel ban?
>
>
>
> Will the foundation join the calls for a general strike?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Publicpolicy mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/publicpolicy
>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Natacha Rault
I don't feel personnally that this post is not courteous. I see it as a proposition and a question echoing world wide concern on the matter (I am based in Switzerland), although I do understand that a answer from the WMF is delicate.

Kind regards,

Natacha

Le 31 janv. 2017 à 00:51, Nathan a écrit :

It might be more effective, and certainly more courteous, if you could
avoid making essentially the same set of advocacy posts almost every day.

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 6:38 PM, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I propose that the Foundation issue a statement in support of striking
> Google employees:
>
> http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/30/14446312/google-
> immigration-protest-walkout-trump-googlers-unite
>
> And endorsing the call for a national general strike:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5r3wxp/
> forget_protest_trumps_actions_warrant_a_general/
>
> (Except for the Lyft part, because one of its founders is on the
> adminstration's transition team.)
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:38 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is this more appropriate for the Public Policy or Wikimedia-l list?
>
>
>
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/
> jurisprudence/2017/01/court_rulings_couldn_t_protect_
> everyone_detained_because_of_trump_s_immigration.html
>
>
>
> Several permanent residents have apparently been tricked into signing
>
> away their green cards while being detained without benefit of
>
> counsel.
>
>
>
> How many Foundation employees are affected by the travel ban?
>
>
>
> Will the foundation join the calls for a general strike?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Publicpolicy mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/publicpolicy
>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Todd Allen
The issue is not just in the current post, but that this is, I believe, the
third or so time that the same person has brought up the subject in as many
days. Bringing a subject up once is one thing. Bringing it up repeatedly is
inherently discourteous because it clogs the mailing list.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Rogol Domedonfors
James

I think this is a very interesting point.  Why is the WMF so dependent on
being able to hire staff in one location?  I seem to  recall suggesting
some time ago that they should diversify their location globally in the
inerests of innovation and efficiency.  It would have done them good to gt
out of the Silicon Valley bubble a long time ago.  Perhaps the most
effective action they could take, that would be thoroughly in the long-term
interests of the mission and also probably agreeable to the inclinations of
the majority of staff and contributors, would be to move the bulk of their
operations out of the USA altogether.  That would be a very powerfful
message.  I am sure London would welcome the WMF, and the WMF would find it
a more vibrant and creative hub than San Francisco.

"Rogol"

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The issue is not just in the current post, but that this is, I believe, the
> third or so time that the same person has brought up the subject in as many
> days. Bringing a subject up once is one thing. Bringing it up repeatedly is
> inherently discourteous because it clogs the mailing list.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Todd Allen
I think that's an interesting thought in general, but what used to be true
still is today. Europe in general, and the UK in particular, has
significantly weaker free speech guarantees than the US does. This
manifests in quite a few ways, from "hate speech" to "right to be
forgotten" to "superinjunctions" to prohibitions against publishing the
name of certain people accused of criminal acts.

Moving to Europe would oblige the WMF to follow these restrictions. How
would that be avoided? If anything, Canada might be a better option in that
regard, but still far from perfect.

Also, I'd dispute that London is inherently more creative and vibrant than
SV. Some of the most brilliant and creative people in the world live and
work in Silicon Valley.

Todd
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Natacha Rault
I dont think "Europe" and european countries cant be thrown in one potatoe bag.
When I read this "Some of the most brilliant and creative people in the world live and
work in Silicon Valley."  it reminds me, as I am French living in Geneva of the attitude of so called "developed" countries wanting to give good advice and impose their way of thinking to so called "underdeveloped countries" in the UN,  WTO and ILO sphere, as these guys always go from the premises of their inherent superiority..

Actually in Geneva we have the highest proportion of Nobel prizes per square kilometers (or that is what people out here think). This statement clearly would upset some people who are not included in that brilliantly creative talent pool...  It is actually the place where the www idea  stems from...

Nattes à chat




Le 31 janv. 2017 à 17:03, Todd Allen a écrit :

I think that's an interesting thought in general, but what used to be true
still is today. Europe in general, and the UK in particular, has
significantly weaker free speech guarantees than the US does. This
manifests in quite a few ways, from "hate speech" to "right to be
forgotten" to "superinjunctions" to prohibitions against publishing the
name of certain people accused of criminal acts.

Moving to Europe would oblige the WMF to follow these restrictions. How
would that be avoided? If anything, Canada might be a better option in that
regard, but still far from perfect.

Also, I'd dispute that London is inherently more creative and vibrant than
SV. Some of the most brilliant and creative people in the world live and
work in Silicon Valley.

Todd
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Fæ
In reply to this post by Todd Allen
There is no reason for the servers hosting data to be located in the
same country as the majority of WMF employees. If London is the most
attractive place to work, and Canada is legally the most sensible
place for data to be centralized, then there is nothing forcing the
WMF to have its headquarters in the same country as the servers.

As previously discussed, it makes sense to have the data in more than
one country, and if something like super-injunctions unexpectedly
apply in one country, then the other country or countries should be
chosen to minimise the risk that the same action would apply there.

It would even be possible to legally separate the WMF from its
currently internal data hosting functions. Again these strategic
options would minimize the chance that some billionaire's lawyers
could use injunctions to completely suppress specific knowledge.

Fae

On 31 January 2017 at 16:03, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that's an interesting thought in general, but what used to be true
> still is today. Europe in general, and the UK in particular, has
> significantly weaker free speech guarantees than the US does. This
> manifests in quite a few ways, from "hate speech" to "right to be
> forgotten" to "superinjunctions" to prohibitions against publishing the
> name of certain people accused of criminal acts.
>
> Moving to Europe would oblige the WMF to follow these restrictions. How
> would that be avoided? If anything, Canada might be a better option in that
> regard, but still far from perfect.
>
> Also, I'd dispute that London is inherently more creative and vibrant than
> SV. Some of the most brilliant and creative people in the world live and
> work in Silicon Valley.
>
> Todd

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Publicpolicy] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Benjamin Lees
In reply to this post by Rogol Domedonfors
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Rogol Domedonfors
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think this is a very interesting point.  Why is the WMF so dependent on
> being able to hire staff in one location?

A quick scan of the staff page shows more than 60 "international"
employees. (A fair number of employees are also inside the US but not
in SF.) Some teams, like Technical Collaboration and Technical
Operations, have lots of remote employees.  Some, like HR and Finance
and Administration, do not (probably not a huge surprise).

The WMF still has plenty of work to do on this front, but I think
they're moving in the right direction: almost all of the currently
open jobs at the WMF include "remote" as an option.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

James Salsman-2
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
Why are proposals to abandon the US being given more consideration than
those to address the underlying issues?

And from those who have been so concerned about the frequency of discussion
on this topic (amongst dozens of redundant crongradulatory messages which
have never in a dozen years resulted in any such concerns), is it fair to
ask how frequent they consider appropriate discussion should be; in
particular given the perspective here?

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Gnangarra
>
> Why are proposals to abandon the US being given more consideration than

those to address the underlying issues?


The concern is political stability and the feasibility to react when a
faster more immediate shift is needed than can be achieve through a
lobbying for change pace.  Both should be the approach a plan to exit
partially or entirely from the US is the immediate need as thats seen as
the most prudent method for protection of the WMF and its staff.  There has
also been an under lying concern about the current location and potential
for issues derived from closeness to other Big net corporations, remember
there where issues 12 months ago about a board of trustee member who stood
down. Moving is something people have thought in more detail about, the
travel ban was so fast and impact immediate it highlighted dramatically the
uncertainity ahead for US based activities. Had it occurred during a
conference the impact could have potentially been more significant, if the
WMF wants to attract the best people to work locally this hurts and plans
to protect those people(and their families) are needed.   We also need to
acknowledge that travel bans may cause additional operational costs to the
WMF either in the need to shift face to face meetings, and or to support
employees caught up in unexpected changes.

On 1 February 2017 at 07:11, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why are proposals to abandon the US being given more consideration than
> those to address the underlying issues?
>
> And from those who have been so concerned about the frequency of discussion
> on this topic (amongst dozens of redundant crongradulatory messages which
> have never in a dozen years resulted in any such concerns), is it fair to
> ask how frequent they consider appropriate discussion should be; in
> particular given the perspective here?
>
> https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Rogol Domedonfors
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
James


> Why are proposals to abandon the US being given more consideration than
> those to address the underlying issues?
>

Because this mailing list is for discussions about the Wikimedia mission,
Foundation and projects; not for the general discussion of the national
politics of the United States or any other country, however fascinating.

"Rogol"

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:11 PM, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why are proposals to abandon the US being given more consideration than
> those to address the underlying issues?
>
> And from those who have been so concerned about the frequency of discussion
> on this topic (amongst dozens of redundant crongradulatory messages which
> have never in a dozen years resulted in any such concerns), is it fair to
> ask how frequent they consider appropriate discussion should be; in
> particular given the perspective here?
>
> https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

MZMcBride-2
Rogol Domedonfors wrote:
>Because this mailing list is for discussions about the Wikimedia mission,
>Foundation and projects; not for the general discussion of the national
>politics of the United States or any other country, however fascinating.

Seriously. Where are the mailing list moderators? Richard? Thehelpfulone?

MZMcBride



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] news events impacting the Foundation's ability to hire and its employees' ability to travel

Neil P. Quinn-2
James, I'm afraid I also find your posts repetitive and off-topic
(particularly because I see them both here and on wikitech).
​ I would really appreciate if you at least limit their frequency.


*Neil P. Quinn*
+1 (202) 656 3457 <(202)%20656-3457>

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:11 PM, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Rogol Domedonfors wrote:
> >Because this mailing list is for discussions about the Wikimedia mission,
> >Foundation and projects; not for the general discussion of the national
> >politics of the United States or any other country, however fascinating.
>
> Seriously. Where are the mailing list moderators? Richard? Thehelpfulone?
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>